Lord Cadwan Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Why does Stannis not get more credit for taking Dragonstone when clearly it is an extremely tough place to take-as shown by Loras losing 900-1000 men. If anything it would have been harder for Stannis as Dragonstone would presumably have been at full strength-rather than with only 100 defenders. The fact that Stannis took Dragonstone without extremely Pyrrhic losses should therefore be a much more celebrated victory than it was as it would appear to be the most impressive victory of Robert's Rebellion, but instead no one ever seems that awed by it. Anyone has ideas why that is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 We do not know how much of a fight that the defenders put up, if any. They were close to selling the Targ children to Stannis when Darry fled. They might have just surrendered. ETA: Loras stormed the place with a full attack as early as he could. As far as we know, when Stannis took it, there was not even a fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truly Just Man Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 As far as we know, when Stannis took it, there was not even a fight. That's not exactly what we know. No details are given but that doesn't mean there was no fight. In fact I recall that somewhere in the books it was described as an assault and something Stannis takes pride in. Im more inclined to believe that there was a fight. Yes, the castle wasn't at it's full strenght, but neither it was during Loras' attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Witch King of Asshai Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 The wiki says that the garrison had not decided on their surrender/bargain before the Targrayen's were smuggled out. The fact it's referred to as an assault would suggest some of the garrison offered some resistance, maybe they decided to die with honour, or some other reason. It could be that the sailors of the Targaryen fleet chose to resist and garrisoned the castle, after their ships were destroyed, as they seem to be a separate entity to the garrison. It's likely there were far more than 100 soldiers garrisoning the island/citadel if there was an assault, and an amphibious assault in medieval times required huge skill to successfully carried out. So, the fact it was seemingly done with minor (at least non-pyrrhic) losses and was fully successful suggests it was carried out skilfully. It's likely similar to his subdual of Great Wyk in execution, and in the way it's viewed/remebered. While respectable victories, they are overshadowed by the events surrounding them. With Great Wyk, it's the Siege of Pyke and Battle of Fair Isle, with Dragonstone it's the Sack, Robert's victories and the fact the war was more or less over. As a side note, if the Tyrell conspiracy is not true, than Loras is just an idiot that played into Rolland Storm's hands. I imagine his leadership, and that of Storms, made the battle incredibly more pyrrhic than it should have been Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 It would not make any sense for there to have even been a battle. No targs to protect, no time limit preventing a siege, no reason to believe there was a battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 and something Stannis takes pride in. That probably says more about Stannis than it does about any actual battle. We know what happened, for starters the Royal fleet was destroyed even before Stannis arrived as we know "a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart. They said that storm was terrible. The Targaryen fleet was smashed while it lay at anchor, and huge stone blocks were ripped from the parapets and sent hurtling into the wild waters of the narrow sea." We are also told from Dany that "The garrison had been prepared to sell them to the Usurper, but one night Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men had broken into the nursery and stolen them both" so I'm not sure who you think Stannis battled. They had no one to defend and were looking to betray the Targs before Stannis even arrived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Urgandy Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Probably landed, killed a couple of people that were inclined to defend in battle, most likely offered terms and the rest of the garrison said "fuck this!" and gave up. Still looks good for Stannis, regardless if there was a battle or not, it was the Targaryen stronghold for longer even than they ruled Westeros and they surrendered it to him, they might've surrendered it to Donald Duck but thats neither here nor there. If there'd been a real fight though, I reckon we'd know about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truly Just Man Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 That probably says more about Stannis than it does about any actual battle. We are also told from Dany that "The garrison had been prepared to sell them to the Usurper, but one night Ser Willem Darry and four loyal men had broken into the nursery and stolen them both" so I'm not sure who you think Stannis battled. They had no one to defend and were looking to betray the Targs before Stannis even arrived. Dany was hours old when this happened, so forgive me that I don't take her words into account. She speaks of the events pretty much describing what she heard of from her brother. And even if I do take into account her words, they aren't an evidence stronger than the ones provided that there was a fight. Not of epic proportions I'd imagine, but still a fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Dany was hours old when this happened, so forgive me that I don't take her words into account. She speaks of the events pretty much describing what she heard of from her brother. And even if I do take into account her words, they aren't an evidence stronger than the ones provided that there was a fight. Not of epic proportions I'd imagine, but still a fight. Fine, provide quotes that back up your claim that there was an actual bloodshed and it was a proper battle Dany was a baby she got her story from Darry, the four men loyal to him, the servants, wetnurse and other people who would have left with her. Why would they lie. Surely it would be in Viserys best interests to say that the Garrison were loyal up until the end rather than admit that they sold them out. Unless you think they were all plotting against Roberts younger brother, not wanting him to get the proper credit of a brilliant victory. It is all a conspiracy to deny that greatness of Stannis . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous22 Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Weird. I thought it was something that Stannis blundered. Successfully taking Dragon-Stone and letting the Targs escape right under his nose at the same time. I thought that's why Robert despised him as much as he did. He really wanted those Targ kids dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truly Just Man Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 In Stannis' words He couldn't have prevented the escape of the Targs, because they were already gone. All we know is he lead the assault on board of Fury and took the castle successfully. No indications are given of the proportions of the fight. This was his first battle as a navy captain. “I built a fleet at Robert’s command, took Dragonstone in his name. Did he ever take my hand and say, Well done, brother, whatever should I do without you? No, he blamed me for letting Willem Darry steal away Viserys and the babe, as if I could have stopped it.” I recall Ned Stark calling it an assault. Not entirely sure about it tho. (haven't reread the books in some time now). I'll try to find it but can't guarantee I'll provide you with a 100 percent correct translation since my books are not in English. Danny and his brother left before the assault took place. And no, it's not a conspiracy against Rob's younger brother. It's probably not a bloodshed. But there is no way you or anybody else, dear sir, could know there was no fight. It might not be a brilliant victory, but it is a victory. One of several. Much more than many in this story ever had. Pardon me for not buying your interpretations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 For reference, here is the line with the word 'assault,' Davos could make out Fury well to the southeast, her sails shimmering golden as they came down, the crowned stag of Baratheon blazoned on the canvas. From her decks Stannis Baratheon had commanded the assault on Dragonstone sixteen years before, but this time he had chosen to ride with his army, trusting Fury and the command of his fleet to his wife’s brother Ser Imry, who’d come over to his cause at Storm’s End with Lord Alester and all the other Florents. - ACoK p. 819 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Pardon me for not buying your interpretations. Its not my interpretation, it what the text tells us. No real navy to protect the island and the garrison already ready to surrender. Who exactly was left to fight Stannis and for what reason? This is a similar victory to Tywin taking Harrenhal, nothing truly remarkable about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertRivers Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Maybe the raging summer storm was Stannis. I could see him threatening to tear the island fastness apart and destroying the targaryen fleet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 Maybe the raging summer storm was Stannis. I could see him threatening to tear the island fastness apart and destroying the targaryen fleet. I'm sure if Melisandre told him he caused the Storm because he is so special then he would have believed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Urgandy Posted May 6, 2015 Share Posted May 6, 2015 I'm sure if Melisandre told him he caused the Storm because he is so special then he would have believed it. Sound carries over water, and Stannis was gritting his teeth most fiercely that day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truly Just Man Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Its not my interpretation, it what the text tells us. No real navy to protect the island and the garrison already ready to surrender. Who exactly was left to fight Stannis and for what reason? This is a similar victory to Tywin taking Harrenhal, nothing truly remarkable about it. Of course it is your interpretation since text tells us there was an assault. Would it be an assault if there was no resistance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Maybe the raging summer storm was Stannis. I could see him threatening to tear the island fastness apart and destroying the targaryen fleet. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Of course it is your interpretation since text tells us there was an assault. Would it be an assault if there was no resistance? It is not my interpretation, it is what we are told in the books. Assault is nautical terminology. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/amphibious+assault Many such operations have happened without any bloodshed or even resistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Davos describes it as an "assault", Ned says Stannis "conquered" the castle, and Stannis lists it up there with his other achievements, all of which involved battle. Against that, you have Dany's quote about the garrison wanting to "sell" (not surrender) her and her brother to Robert, which they obviously never got the chance to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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