Blind Beth the Cat Lady Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 So I was listening to the excellent podcast "Footnoting History" and was tipped off to yet another English historical parallel with ASOIAF. I was very excited and don't recall seeing it on the boards before, so I thought I would share. Empress Matilda, a.k.a. Lady of the English, has several parallels with Princess Rhaenyra. - Fathers unexpectedly declared them heirs, then remarried. - Fathers brought in lords/nobility to specifically swear allegiance to this female heir. - Both married twice before seeking to claim the throne. - Both betrayed by a close male relative (cousin/half-brother) who desired the throne. - Both kicked off a terrible civil war while pressing their claims. ("the Anarchy"/"Dance of the Dragons") - Both had moments of victory, which was then snatched away; neither considered to have really been a queen despite briefly claiming the throne. - Both driven from the briefly-captured capital by mobs. - Both lost the throne to her rival, but ultimately the proceeding line of monarchy came from her line, not her rival's. Yay, history! [Edited for accuracy of first comparison.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Good catch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Although I guess it might not be common knowledge among non-UK readers, it's pretty clear that the inspiration for the Dance of the Dragons was indeed the Anarchy (the civil war between Matilda and Stephen), as the Wars of the Roses is for the main plot of ASoIaF. As the period has been fleshed out it's seemingly moved further from its origins, but the key elements are there. On this point though:- Fathers unexpectedly declared them heirs, but remarried and had other male children. Matilda had several half-brothers, but all were illegitimate. Henry did remarry after his first wife's death but had no surviving children by his second queen. Matilda did have one full brother, a year younger than her, who was Henry's first heir but died without issue several years before Henry himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blind Beth the Cat Lady Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 Oh, sorry, got mixed up on that point. I had never heard of Matilda or the Anarchy before the aforementioned podcast. But based on the response to this thread (i.e. not much) I must be in the minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Joe the Unknighted Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Yes I'd always thought that. If the war of the five Kings is the War of the Roses then the Dance of the Dragons is the Anarchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Yes I'd always thought that. If the war of the five Kings is the War of the Roses then the Dance of the Dragons is the Anarchy. :agree:Other parallels: Stephen is definitely Stannis (the names sound familiar). In the Anarchy, Matilda's bastard brother Robert wages a rebellion which is probably where GRRM got Robert's rebellion from. Stephen's son chokes to death during a feast so Matlida's son is named heir to the throne (in the Dance, Rhaenyra's son Aegon takes the throne after her half-brother Aegon dies). Matilda's father declares her his heir and her father's followers swear fealty to her but that doesn't work out very well. Ken Follett's the Pillars of the Earth covers the Anarchy. It's a cool book that any GRRM fan would find interesting. I'm sure GRRM read it and took some inspiration from it.EDIT: I think GRRM might even be using the Anarchy as inspiration for the second Dance of the Dragons. There are parallels between Dany and Matilda too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blind Beth the Cat Lady Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 Cool, I've definitely noticed parallels between the first and second Dance players, so it makes sense they would both draw inspiration from the Anarchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 I've been reading up on the Anarchy recently too and had the same thoughts :) really interesting stuff, going to have to look into this period some more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 While the War of the Five Kings has many obvious paralles with the so called War of the Roses, there are also parallels with the earlier French civil war, the Armagnac- Burgundian war. As a matter of fact, the emblems of the two houses were the wolf and the lion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addam Velaryon Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I have never understood why people draw a connection between the so-called Wars of the Roses & the wars of Starks vs. Lannisters in ASOIAF - the Wars of the Roses were between two competing branches of the same family (i.e. the Plantagenets) while the Starks were attempting to create their own sovereign kingdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkSister1001 Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 So I was listening to the excellent podcast "Footnoting History" and was tipped off to yet another English historical parallel with ASOIAF. I was very excited and don't recall seeing it on the boards before, so I thought I would share. Empress Matilda, a.k.a. Lady of the English, has several parallels with Princess Rhaenyra. - Fathers unexpectedly declared them heirs, then remarried. - Fathers brought in lords/nobility to specifically swear allegiance to this female heir. - Both married twice before seeking to claim the throne. - Both betrayed by a close male relative (cousin/half-brother) who desired the throne. - Both kicked off a terrible civil war while pressing their claims. ("the Anarchy"/"Dance of the Dragons") - Both had moments of victory, which was then snatched away; neither considered to have really been a queen despite briefly claiming the throne. - Both driven from the briefly-captured capital by mobs. - Both lost the throne to her rival, but ultimately the proceeding line of monarchy came from her line, not her rival's. Yay, history! [Edited for accuracy of first comparison.] Great catch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I have never understood why people draw a connection between the so-called Wars of the Roses & the wars of Starks vs. Lannisters in ASOIAF - the Wars of the Roses were between two competing branches of the same family (i.e. the Plantagenets) while the Starks were attempting to create their own sovereign kingdom.Because GRRM has specifically said he drew inspiration from the War of the Roses Westeros is probably closer to medieval Britain than anything else. Geographically, it occupies a somewhat similar position off a larger contintent, although Westeros is considerably larger and is, in fact, a continent itself, more like South America. And although I've drawn on many parts of history, the War of the Roses is probably the one my story is closest to. Ideas are cheap. I have more ideas now than I could ever write up. To my mind, it's the execution that is all-important. I'm proud of my work, but I don't know if I'd ever claim it's enormously original. You look at Shakespeare, who borrowed all of his plots. In A Song of Ice and Fire, I take stuff from the Wars of the Roses and other fantasy things, and all these things work around in my head and somehow they jell into what I hope is uniquely my own. But I don't know where it comes from, yet it comes it's always come. If I was a religious guy, I'd say it's a gift from God, but I'm not, so I can't say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 I have never understood why people draw a connection between the so-called Wars of the Roses & the wars of Starks vs. Lannisters in ASOIAF - the Wars of the Roses were between two competing branches of the same family (i.e. the Plantagenets) while the Starks were attempting to create their own sovereign kingdom. Because GRRM has specifically said he drew inspiration from the War of the Roses And because those parallels are glaringly obvious in many cases. They are just never 1:1 parallels. Anyone looking for a one on one match or trying to predict the outcome based on historical events will be disappointed. GRRM takes inspiration from history but mixes things up. I would say that the biggest difference between the Wars of the Roses and the War of the Five Kings is that the former had minimal civilian casualties (unlike many other wars, especially modern wars) and barely affected the common folk of England, while one of the main traits of the latter was the devastation of the Riverlands and the widescale destruction and terror campaign against the smallfolk lead by Tywin's forces, Roose's forces and the sellswords that switched sides between the two. GRRM was not interested in retelling history (if he wanted that, he'd have written a historical novel), but in writing his own story, and making certain points, such as that about the cost of war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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