AFFC Reread Project - Samwell (+Prologue)

[Ashara Stark]

the crucial point in the whole key stealing affair is not so much what the FM wants with the key, but why he need Pate to steal it for him. Considering that he has no problem to take on Pate's identity and seems to have at least a very good idea were to find the key it would have been much easier for him to first take over Pate's appearance and than take his time with getting the key himself. So far my best bet is that the theft itself was somehow important, e.g. that the FM can only take over the faces of "guilty" people.

I think that a Faceless Man can only take the appearance of the people he has killed; and that he chooses Pate because he serves the only Archmaester that keeps his key in a place known by several people in the Citadel (at least Maester Gormon and Pate knew it). Then the question is how Jaqen obtained all that information about the Pate and Archamester Walgrave.

I think that Pate might have been talking too much or too loud in The Quill and the Tankard about Maester Gormon thinking he was a thief, and about what Archmaester Walgrave kept in his box. Either Jaqen was already at the inn and heard him talking or he obtained that knowledge from Rosey.

[Urri]

I think that a Faceless Man can only take the appearance of the people he has killed; and that he chooses Pate because he serves the only Archmaester that keeps his key in a place known by several people in the Citadel (at least Maester Gormon and Pate knew it). Then the question is how Jaqen obtained all that information about the Pate and Archamester Walgrave.

[...]

But why demand from Pate to steal the key ? He could have been caught, or lost his courage etc. Why not simply be done with him, take over his face and get the key afterwards ?

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

I also must admit that I completely missed Alleras/Sarella connection. It just didn't occur to me. OTOH I at once noticed that Alchemist is Jaqen This is one descripition I remembered quite well.

Jaqen does go to smoe lenghts to get Pate to admit that he is a thief, so it has to be important somehow. It does seem likely that FM usually only kill people who are guilty of something. We have to cluesat all, what is Jaqen's purpose in the Citadel. We don't even know if he is working for someone or pursuing some FM agenda. Pate doesn't seem to be associated with Marwyn in any way, so we have to assume that Jaqen got himself associated with him after he took Pate's place. It isn't known if Marwyn guessed his true identity. Pate's hatred of swineboy story is nice touch, letting the readers know that Pate at the end of the book is different person.

The name of the river - Honeywine - is a nice nod to Tolkien. I don't think anyone mentioned this.

Archmaesters sit under the masks - it would mean that they don't wear them, they are just ceremonial objects.

It is confirmed that there are no maesters in Free Cities.

Lazy Leo seems to be extremely unpopular with other acolytes - and it hard to blame them for it. I rather dout if he knows Sarella's secret, though. Why would he keep it, considering the kind of person he is?

Sarella is evidently diligent student which is to be expected, considering who she is.

[Jaehaerys]

Nice recap of the chapter.

The only addtion I would like to make is that the appendix lists Sarella as "19, his daughter by a trader, captain of the Feathered Kiss." I thought the feathered kiss was a nice nod to Alleras' bow.

[Lady of Leaves]

Urri - Brilliant!!!

I completely buy your take on why Pate had to steal the key and also admit his guilt loudly (good catch BoG).It explains so much of what was slightly off with the whole encounter.

Pate is accused of stealing by Gormon, but his own thoughts shows he was in fact innocent - Walgrave broke into the box himself when forgetting where the key to the box was. So he is not a thief up until then.

On that accusal - it IS slightly odd he was even accused. Why would Gormon even get close to Walgrave's personal stash? Of course, he is acting in the old man's stead, but what was there that he needed in that capacity. All archmaesters are to have that key - even him.

Was Pate set up? By whom? As a way of softening him up for the Alchemist?

Hmmmm

[The hairy bear]

Interesting thoughts so far. My views:

1. Mollander's father

I don't think that we have get to know Mollander's father, but for the sake of baseless speculation, let's list some of the knights that died at the Blackwater:

-Ser Guyard Morrigen

-Ser (Lord) Bryce Caron

-Ser Bryan Fossoway

-Ser Edwyd Fossoway

-Ser Jacelyn Bywater

-Ser Mandon Moore

-Ser Imry Florent

I don't recall any more. At least Bywater it's an interesting option, IMO. Ser Mandon Moore might have sense, also. The Citadel could be a bastard son of a knight of the kingsguard, and if he had shared the Targ loyalties with his son, that'd explain whay he tried to kill Tyrion: to eliminate capable leaders to resist Dany's invasion. Too far-fetched perhaps...

2. Maester links

-The existence of 21 types of metals corresponding to 21 archmaesters it's an interesting idea, that's consistent with the fact that each archmaester presides the examinations for his own area of knowledge.

-I don't think the golden link corresponds to maths. Jon defines it as "money and accounts", and Luwin as "Sums and numbers". I think it's more like simple calculus, with basic economy and some bits of Westerosii General Advanced Accounting Principles.

-Alleras has just won the cooper link (history). I don't think that three links in a year is that impressive. I mean that it'd be impressive if Alleras had been truly a trader's son. Most of the baseborn guys like Pate that enter at the Citadel do not even know how to read or write, while castle born novices had been already taught by maesters and septons.

-Waterdancer wrote: Acoytes wear their links on a leather thong until they have enough to form a full chain around their necks, IMO.

That'd be a cool notion, but unfair with those with thick neck. Besides, more than one acolyte would strangle himself trying to obtain the graduation.

3. Leo Tyrell

-Apparently Leo Tyrell knows about Dany and her dragons. His father is the Commander of the City Watch of Oldtown, and it seems that the communication between the two flows easily, given the great freedom the acolytes have. Leo's father is Mace Tyrell's cousin... The question is: do the Tyrells know about Dany's dragons? And if so, should we analyse their actions during Feast under another light?

-Lady of Leaves wrote: I'll bet you anything Leo knows Alleras secret

Mm. I don't know. Tyrells hate the Martells in general, and Leo hates Alleras in particular. If he knew her secret, what would refrain him for telling it to the maestrs andget her expelled?

4. Sarella/Alleras

-I have to confess that I'm among those short-sighted readers who didn't caught it. o, during the reread, it seems almost obvious...

-Just one line that caught my attention:

"No," said Alleras. "It was Prince's Rhaegar's young son Aegon whose head was dashed against the wall by the Lion of Lannister's brave men."

It's surprinsing that Sarella goes as far in her performance as to calling "brave men" themurderers of her aunt and cousins.

5. The Chequered Hazard.

Just mention that I found it a cool name for a game. It can envision a popular TV show with that title!

6. Candles and Flames

Something many of you might have seen, but that I've seen no mentioned already: the Candles of the Citadle are not the first instance were fire is used to see what's happening far away in real time. Melisandre also "saw" many things through the flames.

[Lupigis]

The prologue introduces us to a fresh character who provides us with some new information, only to die in the last paragraph. In other words it's the classic GRRM prologue that we have come to know and love during the last three books. I missed the anagrammatical sand snake but caught the Jaqemist on my first read - I'm happy enough to have got one out of two.

WRT the information GRRM feeds us in this chapter I haven't really picked up anything that hasn't already been mentioned. I also wondered about whether there was any hidden meaning in the fact that Rosey brought Pate and the alchemist together. Why would the alchemist not approach Pate on his own? He has enough information about Pate to approach him in private if he wants to (and as a FM he surely has the ability as well). Hence, I suspect that the fact that Martin bothers to give us this tidbit means that there is some sort of connection. As the senior serving woman/prostitute at the most famous inn in Oldtown, Roseys mother must hear a lot of gossip, and would thus be an ideal informant in Oldtown. Perhaps she reports to the FM?

I agree that the mention of dragons in Asshai in the sailors stories is intriguing. Are there living dragons there as well, or will there be when/if Dany gets there?

Another interesting piece of information is that Alleras is clearly aware of the "prophecy of the three-headed dragon". To me, this indicates that this prophecy was no secret, but commonly known, at least to academics that take an interest in the esoteric activities of the royal family.

I have nothing to add to Happy Ent's summary of the timeframe for this chapter - it's good that someone keeps track of these things!

In addition to Ishtar's summary of the people introduced in this chapter I thought I should mention two names I noticed while dredging through the appendix. After the list of archmaesters, there comes the heading "maesters, acolytes and novices of the Citadel". All the names mentioned there also appear in the prolouge, except for two: Robert Frey, sixteen, an acolyte of two links, and Lorcas, an acolyte of nine rings, in service to the Seneschal. Since Martin saw fit to mention them in the appendix I expect that we'll see more of these two in the future. According to the appendix, Robert is the son of Raymund Frey, old Walder's tenth son. Does anyone remeber what part (if any) Raymund Frey played in the Red wedding?

All in all, Oldtown seems an interesting setting, and I look forward to seeing more of these characters, (their interactions with Sam in particular).

[Mack Kilimaro]

Marwyn spent eight years in the East. This must be the time he instructed MMD.

I'll bite. How do we know that Marwyn (or any Maester) instructed Mirri Maz Duur? I don't remember any hint of that kind of connection at all.

[AverageGuy]

Mirri Maz Duur mentions him in AGoT.

I think Sarella and Leo are both working for the Mage. Because of this, Leo knows her secret, but while he won't tell, he enjoys holding his knowledge over her head.

[Reposado]

there's also the possibility that he knows part of the secret. he might know she's a girl but not be aware she's oberyn's daughter. thus he wouldn't know their families were enemies and would have no reason to expose her.

[Maia]

I'll bite. How do we know that Marwyn (or any Maester) instructed Mirri Maz Duur? I don't remember any hint of that kind of connection at all.

Mirri Maz Duur told Dany that she has been taught healing by a maester and described his chain. Possibly she even named him, but I am not sure. Anyway, it played into Dany's decision to trust the maegi with Drogo's treatment, IIRC.

Great thoughts on the prologue, everybody! I won't repeat stuff that everybody else has mentioned, except to admit that I also missed Sarella on my first read (and then came to the board and was spoiled), although I saw Oberyn connection in her appearance and wondered if he did have a son after all, LOL. Also saw Jaquen immediately, as appears to be typical among the posters on this thread.

Anyway, here are a couple of things I'd like to add:

"All the serving wenches doted on him. Even Rosey would sometimes touch him on the arm when she brought him wine, and Pate had to gnash his teeth and pretend not to see"

Could it be that serving wenches have an inkling of the Sphinx's true identity? Or are they perhaps her informants? Certainly, Rosey plays a key role in bringing Pate together with Jaquen and we see Patquen being thick as thieves with Alleras and Marwyn in the end of the book, with Marwyn going so far as uttering pretty heretical and dangerous stuff in Pate's presence. Stuff, that by his own admission would have gotten Aemon or Sam killed. Not something to be spoken of in the presence of a slow youth with dim prospects, who has been accused of thievery. Hm...

"Men spoke of seeing him (Marwyn) down in the undercity, in rat pits and black brothels, consorting with mummers, singers, sellswords, even beggars"

Ok, this makes me pretty certain that he is Varys's agent. IIRC Varys once proved that he knew what archmaesters were discussing in a secret conclave and now we know how. He seems to have been in charge of collecting info from the Oldtown area and whatever came there from across the sea. His departure in the end of the book may seem abrupt, but according to Marwyn (or Alleras?) he knew that Sam and Aemon were coming for some time. Maybe he intended to go to Dany with Aemon anyway and relinquished his spying duties to somebody else. Sarella?

"Alleras gave Pate a lingering look"

I have a feeling that she knew what was going to happen. In fact, she probably brought Rosey and Jaquen together.

Contents of Walgrave strongbox - a bag of stags (could he really have less than a dragon saved up?), a prince's steel gauntlet - my guess would be Egg's, Rhaegar's or Oberyn's, a lock of yellow hair - a Lannister love interest in Walgrave's past ? A miniature of a relative - Walgrave must have been from a pretty well-to-do family, perhaps even a noble one.

BTW, could he really be old enough to _teach_ Cressen? IIRC Cressen himself was 83 or so, it would be strange if we had so many long-lived maesters, IMHO. More likely that he and Cressen used to be pals in their student days, IMHO.

Oh, and Gormon would know about the broken lock because he took over some (most?) of Walgraves duties, so I presume that he often uses the key too.

[rpthomps]

1. What does Alleras mean by the dragon has three heads?

Maybe there are three children of house Targaryen, Dany, John Snow (who has be theorized in other boards to be a Targaryen) and someone else?

[Waterdancer]

The thing with Gormon is that EVERY archmaester is supposed to have that key. Nothing other than the key is valuable in Walgrave's strongbox. So why does Gormon (or anyone else) need to get to Walgrave's key? As I mentioned, it must be an uber-special key.

[Maia]

The thing with Gormon is that EVERY archmaester is supposed to have that key.

But according to Appendix Gormon isn't an archmaester, just a maester who took over some of the senile archmaesters's duties. Thus he doesn't have a right to the key of his own, but has need of one/wants to use one occasionally.

[Wouter]

Bywater as Mollander's father could have something to it, Bywater seemed to be a man of Varys and thus could have been a Targaryen loyalist. Allthough I suppose the father could be an unnamed, unimportant knight. Knowing Martin, I think we'll learn something more about this in later Sam chapters (post-AFFC), though.

Apparently Leo Tyrell knows about Dany and her dragons. His father is the Commander of the City Watch of Oldtown, and it seems that the communication between the two flows easily, given the great freedom the acolytes have. Leo's father is Mace Tyrell's cousin... The question is: do the Tyrells know about Dany's dragons? And if so, should we analyse their actions during Feast under another light?

A good catch, Leo does seem to know something about the dragons at least - allthough he may not know that they are Dany's. One wonders just how close he is to Marwyn. What would the Tyrells do if they find out? Get a plan ready to back out of the western alliance if it proves necessary? I doubt they would drop Tommen and his match to Margeary immediately, though, Dany isn't Aegon the conqueror just yet.

Ok, this makes me pretty certain that he is Varys's agent. IIRC Varys once proved that he knew what archmaesters were discussing in a secret conclave and now we know how. He seems to have been in charge of collecting info from the Oldtown area and whatever came there from across the sea. His departure in the end of the book may seem abrupt, but according to Marwyn (or Alleras?) he knew that Sam and Aemon were coming for some time. Maybe he intended to go to Dany with Aemon anyway and relinquished his spying duties to somebody else. Sarella?

Interesting thought, I had not thought about a possible Varys/Marwyn connection yet. Depending on varys' true motives (his hatred of magic would have to be pretty much a lie, then), it could well be that they're cooperating.

[IshtarNZ]

"Thank you IshtarNZ for reminding us where Cressen came from! "

Yeah, I had to look him up myself - at first I thought he was the maester from Winterfell but that didn't seem quite right!

"-Just one line that caught my attention:

"No," said Alleras. "It was Prince's Rhaegar's young son Aegon whose head was dashed against the wall by the Lion of Lannister's brave men."

It's surprinsing that Sarella goes as far in her performance as to calling "brave men" themurderers of her aunt and cousins."

That struck me as sarcastic, I think - I don't think that a person killing a babe in arms could ever be considered "brave".

"Mirri Maz Duur told Dany that she has been taught healing by a maester and described his chain. Possibly she even named him, but I am not sure. "

I'm fairly certain MMD named the maester she learnt off as Marwyn.

"BTW, could he really be old enough to _teach_ Cressen? IIRC Cressen himself was 83 or so, it would be strange if we had so many long-lived maesters, IMHO. More likely that he and Cressen used to be pals in their student days, IMHO. "

I just sort of got the feeling that he taught Cressen because he thought of Pate as Cressen - and as Pate is a student I thought of that as the connection. But I could be wrong.

"Interesting thought, I had not thought about a possible Varys/Marwyn connection yet. Depending on varys' true motives (his hatred of magic would have to be pretty much a lie, then), it could well be that they're cooperating."

This is why I didn't really like that connection either - but then again, Varys is the sort of person who will use any resources available to achieve his ends. So perhaps he can put aside his hatred for that.

[Tarthking]

Lots of great observations so far about the prologue. I especially like the Mirri/Marwyn connection, which I didn't know about until I read it just now. Here are a few comments that I hadn't seen mentioned yet.

Rosey is clearly significant. Martin goes out of his way to mention twice that Rosey introduced Pate to the Jaqen. We know she's 15, which means she was born around the end of Robert's Rebellion. We know the Quill & Tavern has been in business for 600 years, and serves a diverse clientele. Assuming her mother was working at the Quill & Tavern when she became pregnant (a safe bet), Rosey could be bastard daughter of a character we've already met or heard about. Someone who was around Oldtown during Robert's Rebellion. Hazel eyes, dimple, hair curls behind ears. Is this similar to anyone else?

We had 3 characters give us history lessons. In a nice touch, two of those characters had the copper band of history. The last one, Leo, didn't. But we should infer that Leo is capable of obtaining some of his bands.

Leo is clearly intelligent. I don't think he knows Alleras is really a woman, but he clearly believes she is a noble despite her statement's to the contrary. And why wouldn't he? A very expensive bow and arrow set, expensive taste in wine. I think there were other clues as well. Does any tradeswoman make that much money?

Since Leo is smart enough to do the work, it is possible that he is intentionally not getting his links. Could he be a spy for House Tyrell, with the instruction that he is under no condition to become a true Maester (thus, never getting caught)

The rumors about Dany's dragons are interesting. Not quite accurate; they weren't trying to make a film about a spaceship. There seems to be a rumor theme going on with this novel.

Mollander's father? No idea, although I think Mollander Moore sounds right. One possible clue - he says he'll "tear (your) tongue out by the roots." Have we heard this phrase before? If so, who said it?

I have a few others, but I am sleepy.

[Ashara Stark]

In that case, the Prologue happens long after Aeron Damphair's chapter.

Any other hints?

I took for granted that the Prologue took place before Aeron's first chapter. But, after rereading again the prologue I found anothe hint that would support your theory, Happy Ent. There are tales of dragons seen in Meereen, which implies IMHO that Dany is already there when Jaqen kills Pate

ETA: I think Mollander's father was the Knight of the Red Chicken

[Lupigis]

According to the appendix, Robert is the son of Raymund Frey, old Walder's tenth son. Does anyone remeber what part (if any) Raymund Frey played in the Red wedding?

I'm answering myself here, after checking AFFC. Raymund Frey was present and active at the RW. That means Sam will be studying side by side with a boy with a father that helped to kill Jon's brother. That should be interesting. I wonder if Robert will denounce his Frey heritage or defend the Red Wedding as neccesary?

[Tarthking]

The Dawn:

Because the word "dawn" has been used twice before in the series for significant and different reasons (Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn, and "the war for the dawn"), I plan on paying close attention to how it is used during the re-read.

It appears in the prologue at the point Pate gives up on meeting the alchemist.

"The mists were lightening to the east. Dawn, Pate realized. Dawn has come, and the alchemist has not."

Then a few paragraphs later, there is a lengthy description of the first rays of sunlight breaking, resulting in morning bells ringing. Martin takes great pains to describe the order in which the bells toll. First Sailor’s Sept, then Lord’s Sept, then Seven Shrines, then Starry Sept, where the High Septon's seat had been for a thousand years before Aegon's landing.

I don't know if there is anything significant about the order in which the bells struck. What I thought was interesting is that this is not the first time there has been an association with the dawn and the a location containing the word Star in it. IIRC, the sword Dawn is located at Starfall, the traditional seat of the Daynes.

Once again, not sure if this is significant. But it does make me wonder what, if any, connection the Daynes have with the High Sept. And what connection the Daynes and the High Sept might have with the war for the dawn.