AFFC Reread Project - The Ironborn

[cteresa]

Thread to discuss the Ironborn´s PoV chapters : The Prophet (Euron), The Kraken's Daughter (Asha I), The Iron Captain(Victarion I), The Drowned Man (Euron II), The Reaver (Victarion II)

Provisory schedule dates to start the discussion on this thread:

28-Nov-05 Aeron page 18 to 29

9-Jan-06 Asha page 159 to 172

6-Fev-06 Victarion page 255 to 266

6-Fev-06 Aeron 2 page 267 to 279

13-Mar-06 Victarion 2 page 427 to 443

Let me know if there are any mistakes, or any alterations

[IshtarNZ]

The Prophet

New characters mentioned:

Emmond, the Sparr, Steffarion, Gorold Goodbrother and his sons Greydon, Gormond, and Gran, and his multitude of daughters including Gysella and Gwin, Norjen, Rus, Tarle the Thrice-Drowned, Lord Meldred Merlyn, Maester Murenmure, Sawane Botley the Reader

Known characters mentioned:

The Prophet (Aeron Greyjoy, the Damphair), Balon Greyjoy, Quellon Greyjoy and his 9 sons Harlon, Quenton, Donel, Euron, Victarion, Urrigon, and Robin, (and Balon and Aeron), Dagmer Cleftjaw, Asha, Stannis, Theon

Setting:

Various locations on the Iron Isles, starting with Great Wyk

Aeron, as a priest of the Drowned God, drowns initiates and then revives them as part of an initiation ceremony. I remember someone mentioning that Marines do a similar thing. Can anyone confirm that?

Aeron is clearly a fanatic and most probably slightly mad. His faith burns fiercely within him. In this chapter, he learns that his brother Balon, the rock on which his life has been built, the King of the Iron Isles, is dead. We, of course, already know this. So clearly this chapter overlaps with the end of ASOS.

Aeron also learns that his brother Euron, the Crow’s Eye (Crow, A Feast for Crows…) sits the Seastone Chair – and that he sailed into Lordsport the day after Balon died. How did he get there so quickly? We know that Jaqen was assigned to assassinate Balon, so did Euron hire him? We know so little about Euron. Hiring an assassin doesn’t seem the Ironborn way, but it could be *Euron’s* way – he seems vastly different and has spent much time away from the Iron Isles.

There’s clearly some backstory with Aeron and his brother Urri, and something about a rusted hinge, and it seems to involve Euron too. But we don’t get to know much about this at this point. I have suspicions about Euron sneaking into Aeron’s bedchamber, but not much else to go on at this point.

Aeron thinks a lot about the succession. By Westerosi law, Theon (if he’s alive) and then Asha are the rightful heirs. But the Iron Isles are different. Euron is the eldest remaining brother, so if Theon is dead then he could legitimately claim the throne, as it seems that no-one would support a female ruler of the Ironborn, which rules out Asha. But Aeron thinks that Euron is godless and Victarion is more suited to sit the Seastone Chair. But he doesn’t want it to come to war. Finally, and logically it seems, although he puts it down to divine intervention, he realises that they must have a kingsmoot. Clearly this is a big deal and not something anyone else was expecting, but it is an unusual situation in the Iron Isles and no other course seems apparent without there being a war among the Ironborn, which is obviously not to their favour in this precarious time. So a kingsmoot seems the only option.

We learn much about the Ironborn from this chapter, I think, and much that we already knew is reinforced. They are very different from the mainland Westerosi, and though their differences have been softened over the years, they are still there, and there are still some who keep to the Old Ways. I find the Ironborn fascinating, personally, they’re much more interesting to me than anyone else apart from the Dornish.

Right, first two chapters done!

[Leah]

Appendix pages are 698 -702

Glad I didn't read this before I read the book first time through because the appendix is filled with spoilers for the Iron Islands!

I really didn't find anything in the appendix that really hit me over the head and said yo, mention me! So I won't go into any details. I did like the blurb about the Greyjoys that begins their portion of the appendix though.

On to The Prophet!

Interesting points:

--Time frame is set when Aeron learns Balon is dead. He of course says it is because of the Storm God's jealousy of the Ironborn coming to power again.

--The drowning ritual and the kiss of life. I just really thought that was cool. I liked seeing this religious look at the Iron Islands, it is really just that interesting to me.

-The colors of the robes of the Drowned men are of the sea: mottled greens, blues and greys. They also are armed from the sea with driftwood cudgels.

--Aeron DRINKS sea water freely. Um this is salt water, right? Do we see other people drinking it freely through the series? We know that the Dothraki consider drinking salt water as death. And it is obviously salt water that Aeron is drinking. So um maybe that is why he is such a nutcase Didn't Davos stay away from sea water when stuck on that rock waiting to be rescued? And yet the Ironborn drink the stuff. Very interesting.

--The flashbacks and thoughts about Urri. We learn that it was Aeron who was dancing the finger dance with Urri that caused the loss of fingers. We also learn that Quellon's wife at the time had a maester treat the wound instead of healing the old way of fire and sea water. Urri of course died and Aeron has not trusted a maester since OR danced the finger dance. Thought it was rather interesting how Balon responded when he returned home to find Urri dead. Leaves me wondering if Balon knew it was Aeron who cut off Urri's fingers to begin with. And if not, did Euron? Because the whole chapter is rife with flashbacks and bad feelings about Euron once Aeron finds out he's back.

--When the moon has drowned and come again -- in a month(?) the kingsmoot will take place on Old Wyk, the Grey King's halls and Nagga's hill. Nagga bringing to mind bones for Aeron. We get why later because of the tale of the Grey King.

--Ravens are the creatures of the Storm God.

--Balon had wanted Theon dead so Asha could rule. Aeron was very persistent that a woman will never rule the Ironborn.

-"I have seen the storm and its name is Euron Crow's Eye" (p.24) Of all the things Aeron thought, that is one of the things that really struck me and made me pause for a second or two.

All in all I really liked this look at the Ironborn and Aeron's fanatic reverence to the Drowned God. Also there were a few funny moments when Aeron was recalling his life before being Drowned. Namely the bet. Oh lord, that made me laugh! On the first read this chapter left me looking forward to the Kingsmoot. This time I found more delight in the little details I missed before. Like why Urri was so heavily on Aeron's mind. I really did miss that the first time through. I must have been dense

[Reposado]

quick responses,

i really like how it turns out that what aeron is doing in his sacrifices is performing cpr. the general phenomena of peopel giving religious significance to something we understand is really interesting

the ending if the chapter was reminiscent of the king in the north scene, with everyone being excited to revive an old tradition

common thread of men turning to religion after near death experoences in affc. aeron, lancel and sandor off the top of my head

[IshtarNZ]

Leah:

"--The drowning ritual and the kiss of life. I just really thought that was cool. I liked seeing this religious look at the Iron Islands, it is really just that interesting to me."

I found this really interesting too. We've seen a number of religions now, and this is the most intersting to me, very close to nature and the sea.

"--Aeron DRINKS sea water freely. Um this is salt water, right? Do we see other people drinking it freely through the series? We know that the Dothraki consider drinking salt water as death. And it is obviously salt water that Aeron is drinking. So um maybe that is why he is such a nutcase Didn't Davos stay away from sea water when stuck on that rock waiting to be rescued? And yet the Ironborn drink the stuff. Very interesting."

The *Ironborn* don't drink the stuff - I'm fairly certain only *Aeron* drinks it. I'd imagine its something to do with the fact that he was well and truly drowned, and returned to life. We know of course that drinking salt water is lethal - it dehydrates you and you die. So I interpreted it as a sign of the Drowned God's favour of Aeron. And I think he thinks of it the same way.

There are a couple of other characters that have died and been reborn from the sea, and they are *not* Ironborn - Davos and Patchface. I think this is significant, especially seeing as we're getting so much more info on the Drowned God religion. Possibly they will serve to bring the Ironborn and Stannis together? Who knows at this stage.

"-"I have seen the storm and its name is Euron Crow's Eye" (p.24) Of all the things Aeron thought, that is one of the things that really struck me and made me pause for a second or two. "

Good pick up - for all his talk of Euron being "godless" Aeron clearly associates him with the Storm God, at least subconsciously.

Baelor:

"common thread of men turning to religion after near death experoences in affc. aeron, lancel and sandor off the top of my head"

Another good pick up - a phenomenon that we often see in our world showing itself in GRRM's world.

[Elgernon]

The only thing of import I noticed on my second read through that hasn't been touched on is that the "kiss of life" from the Damphair (cpr as previously mentioned) is described the same way as Thoros/Beric and later Beric/Catelyn will be described later in the book. This is interesting as in the case of the Damphair we can understand the kiss of life (although we do know that Aeron has never lost a man) in the latter case it seems to be either magic or the intervention R'hllor

[Ashara Stark]

Aeron also learns that his brother Euron, the Crow’s Eye (Crow, A Feast for Crows…) sits the Seastone Chair – and that he sailed into Lordsport the day after Balon died. How did he get there so quickly? We know that Jaqen was assigned to assassinate Balon, so did Euron hire him?

It seems clear to me that Euron hired the Faceless man that killed Balon, from the visions of the Ghost of High Heart in ASoS, but I am not so sure about him being Jaqen. Are you sure the timeline fits? The Prologue takes place after the battle of the Blackwater and before Tywin's death, I would say closer to the former, because Mollander is still mourning for his father's death.

And the first Aeron chapter takes place few days after Balon's death. I may be wrong but I don't think Jaqen had time enough to go to the Iron Islands, kill Balon and after that go to the Citadel in time to kill Pate

[IshtarNZ]

Its quite clear when Jaqen leaves Arya that he's on a tight timeline - that he has to be somewhere at a certain time. I agree that it would take a good length of time to get from Harrenhal to the Iron Isles, especially in secret, but to get from the Iron Isles to Old Town would be relatively quickly, because its a straightforward sea voyage. I don't recall how long it would take, exactly, but I think its possible. I don't recall why I thought that it was Jaqen doing the assassination, I need Ran to remind me! But I certainly got the impression that this was the case.

[A wilding]

We know of course that drinking salt water is lethal - it dehydrates you and you die.

I checked up on this, and there is no strong medical reason against drinking seawater, though there are some minuses - sea water taken from anywhere near a human settlement is going to be contaminated by sewerage and other pollutants, and ingesting large amounts of salt is not terribly good for you.

The main issue with it is that you will also need to drink a fair amount of fresh water (or something with fresh water in it) to avoid dehydration. So we must assume that either Aeron does so while not mentioning it, or that some sort of magic is involved. (Or perhaps the seas around Westeros are less salty than our own??)

Incidentally, Aeron has an impressive constitution. The climate of the Iron Isles does not seem to be that warm and yet he spends much of his life wet through. He must be tough.

[Happy Ent]

Regarding timelines, this chapter is set at least a week before the Red Wedding. News of King Balon's death reach Robb's party in Catelyn (V) of Storm of Swords. This information comes from the captain of the Myraham travelling with Jason Mallister.

Here's a possible timeline (using days and months as with our standard calendar).

1 Nov 299 Balon dies

2 Nov 299 Aeron Damphair is informed, Euron takes Seastone chair

10 Nov 299 Myraham captain has travelled from Pyke to White Harbour, and from there (with Mallister) joined Robb's army

15 Nov 299 Edmure weds a Frey girl, people die

1 Jan 300 Joffrey marries and dies

1 Feb 300 Tyrion kill Tywin and escapes

This may all be off by several weeks in each direction, but I assume that The Prophet takes place on 2 Nov and 3 Nov 299. In any case, something like 1 to 2 months before Storm ends.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Yes, Aeron is undoubtedly a fanatic, but he is also surprisingly complex and interesting character. We get to know a lot of his background, and tis chapter gives us also clear picture of life on Iron Islands which we have seen before only through not wholly sympathetic Theon's eyes.

Ironborn religion is interesting. It is clearly manicheistic religion - as R'hllor faith - wit one good god and one evil god, but it also seems to be a mirror image of R'hllorianism - Storm God corresponds rather to R'hllor, and Drowned God to Great Other than other way around. I wonder if it means that both faiths are on opposite sites of great metaphysical struggle.

The head of House Sparr is referred to as the Sparr - usage also found in other ironborn houses. It is quite irritating, since it is difficult to differentiate surnames from nicknames.

Aeron really hates Euron, and he apparently has a reason, but we don't really know what it is. Many people therized that it was sexual molesting, but it really could be any kind of torment.

The ending is great. It really seems as if Aeron was inspired by a god to reanimate the kingsmoot tradition, but it seems extremely unlikely, considering how it ended.

[Elgernon]

It is interesting to me that at least in my interpretation of the reading GRRM presents Aeron, who is definitely a fanatic, in a very sympathetic way. In that his fanaticism is respectable, and you can tell that all of the ironborn, even those not strong in the faith respect Aeron Damphair.

This is in stark contrast to the fanaticism of the High Sparrow and that of Melisandre, both of whom's fanatical approach is clearly presented as a negative thing. Especially in the case of the faith of the Seven, wherein the new regime seems to be heading quickly in the direction of something much akin to the Inquisition of the real world Catholic faith.

[cteresa]

Oh, good timeline tracking HE, love that detail - AFFC really is the aftermath even if aftermath is ongoing.

I am reserving judgment on how Balon died, I am not so sure it was Jaqen - I would bet it was Euron somehow (oh, boy), but I think we still got a lot to find out about Euron.

I loved the bit about CPR, recently I did again first aid training and was in my mind going through the procedures ( if pre-drowned do CPR at once for one minute before calling first aid, since pre-drowned and kids got a high probability of reviving just with immediate CPR). Did you notice how even the "prayers" of others seem evocative of first aid?norjen works drowned kid´s arms, while Rus knelt aside pumping at his chest.eh, good procedure, I guess in a Ironborn culture CPR would be a very important knowledge.

Great first line in this chapter "The prophet was drowning men on Great Wyk when they came to tell him that the

king was dead". GRRM now and then has some great opening lines in his novels and stories ( and a very great indeed last line as well), this would have been a great first line for AFFC. Ok, pointless I guess, I just got a thing about first lines.

I am not too fond of the Ironborn, though GRRM really catches the flavour, loved the little details of how Great Wyk was so big that some holdings had no sea coast! Or that some poor people could even go all their lives without seeing the sea. The flavour was really nordic, the running the oars story about Balon made me think of that scene in Dunnett´s King Hereafter, not sure if anybody else read it, but basically it means running over a ship´s oars while they are being used by the roars, from oar to oar. I got the feeling that Urri´s death is not really blamed by others in Aeron, the finger dance must not have been a secret and they seem matter of fact before about dancers losing fingers, the blame seems to have fallen into the maester. So I think Euron and Balon must have known, but at the same time doubt it was the sort of thing an ironborn would blame another ironborn.

Another delightful bit of ironborn mentality how they are forbidden to spill each other´s blood but drowing is Ok.

I got sort of a hint about Aeron being abused but not by Euron, but related to the time spent in jail at Lannisport. Something changed Aeron, wonder what the details are. About Euron, oh the hate seems personal, but being brothers is already personal itself.

[IshtarNZ]

Wildling:

"Incidentally, Aeron has an impressive constitution. The climate of the Iron Isles does not seem to be that warm and yet he spends much of his life wet through. He must be tough."

Considering he also has very little sleep, I'm willing to suspend my disbelief on the saltwater thing and take it as a sign of his favour with his God.

BoG:

"Aeron really hates Euron, and he apparently has a reason, but we don't really know what it is. Many people therized that it was sexual molesting, but it really could be any kind of torment."

That was pretty much my theory yes, although I do admit it could really be anything.

"The ending is great. It really seems as if Aeron was inspired by a god to reanimate the kingsmoot tradition, but it seems extremely unlikely, considering how it ended."

As I maintain, even though it seems to Aeron that he was inspired by his God, to me it seems the *only* choice available to the Ironborn that will not end with them in civil war. So it seems more that he reasoned out the logical choice and put it down to divine inspiration.

Elgernon:

"It is interesting to me that at least in my interpretation of the reading GRRM presents Aeron, who is definitely a fanatic, in a very sympathetic way. In that his fanaticism is respectable, and you can tell that all of the ironborn, even those not strong in the faith respect Aeron Damphair. "

I think this is because they live in such a harsh environment, they're very primitive in a way, and they put a lot of trust in their religion. In such a harsh world, they need their religion to see them through, or they'd have no hope. And the religion matches the environment very well. I think thats why I like the Ironborn religion and the Ironborn themselves, because they seem very natural and very *possible* to me.

Cteresa:

"GRRM now and then has some great opening lines in his novels and stories ( and a very great indeed last line as well), this would have been a great first line for AFFC. Ok, pointless I guess, I just got a thing about first lines."

I totally agree, I think I loved Guy Gavriel Kay's "The Lions of Al-Rassan" so much specifically because of its opening line. A book really has to draw you in.

[Waterdancer]

RANDOM MUSINGS

as I read again

The drowning of men is an excellent way to reduce the fear factor when fighting and dying at sea. When doing battle, an Ironborn fighter isn't afraid to wear armor or drown. He most likely will not be rescued and given CPR in the thick of things, but believes he'll wake up in the Watery Halls of his god. Also the ironborn are accustomed to swimming in cold water which can come in handy, I'm sure.

Sleeping outside and never cutting or combing his hair, Damphair must be quite a host for all sorts of icky creatures.

It's strange how Damphair gives the 'kiss of life' - it echoes how Dondarion gave Stoneheart a life-giving kiss.

The phrase "Dark wings, dark words" is common in Westeros apparently. Much as they try to be macho, Westerosi culture seeps in, like some people wanting to dress up and keep maesters.

Damphair cannot drink seawater all the time, unless he's got some special powers (which I doubt). Maybe a gulp of seawater is only for special occasions, like a fine wine.

I thought Balon's bridge had broken, sending him to his death. It was only mentioned that he fell during a storm in this chapter. So then he and Lyssa have something in common - they both died from a shove. BTW, I think Euron hired Jaqu'n to get rid of Balon and then do some more work on his behalf at the Citadel.

It seems odd that Damphair has a memory watching his brother sit by a window dying of greyscale disease. I thought it was contagious - no one should've been near the kid. Must be one of those imaginary imaginings.

"Beds of blood and pain" and the "birthing bed" is getting a little tiring to hear of in this book.

I'm surprised that such a proud and traditional sort of fellow like Balon actually supported the succession of Asha.

All this tough talk and condescending attitude towards the "green lands" makes me think they're actually envious.

The scream of a rusted hinge = memories of Urri. How are they connected? Perhaps when he was informed of Urri's death, the informer opened a door with a screaming rusty hinge. Hmmmm....but what about "Euron had come again." Did Euron blame Damphair for Urri's death and come up with some sort of nasty punishment?

It seems that Damphair went on a drunken, downhill slide after Urri's death. He must've been consumed with guilt. He described himself as weak and frightened as a girl.

Golden Storm - friggin' hilarious!!!

It's interesting how Damphair thinks of Theon as a crippled boy.

:sleep: Okay, that's enough fun for one night!

[Lady of Leaves]

The most important hint in this chapter is the rusty hinge IMO. It will be mentioned again and again in Aeron's POV. What makes it special in this first chapter is that this is the only(?) time in the book where it is also connected with Urri - Aeron is half asleep, pondering Euron's return, remembers the sound of the rusty hinge and wakes up saying "Urri".

It is too soon to tell, but what struck me was how vehement Aeron is that Euron is a "godless" man. Why? We actually never get a clear answer to that. We later learn about him seducing/raping Victarion's salt wife, but while this is certainly frowned upon it also seems to be a well kept secret from the rest of the Iron Born. So not to shame Vic further. This is why Euron is sent away - to prevent kinslaying. But again - this cannot be widely known to the Iron Born.

No one else speaks of Euron in this manner, though all seem to think he is an oddity and a bit of an outsider. But Aeron is vehement - he is godless!!

From his backflash we understand that Aeron had a troubled life until his rebirth. He drank too much and behaved irreverently. It certainly seemed to have gotten worse after Urri's death, but I believe that is not so much a feeling of guilt as it is Aeron deeply missing his brother. The finger dance is an accepted form of challenge and I really don't think anyone thought less of Aeron for besting his brother. The problem was that the maester tried to sew back the fingers rather than cauterize the wound properly.

But I think Urri's death was a monumental loss to Aeron and my theory is that they shared a secret: That Euron was molesting one or both of them. This would explain why the sound of the door opening keeps coming back to Aeron, why he insists Euron is beyond redemption, and why he is willing to do anything from preventing him from taking the Iron Throne. Even when the Kingsmoot elects him.

I really warmed to the Iron Isles in this book. I had been rather uninterested before, but now I eagerly await hearing more of them.

[The hairy bear]

Very interesting thoughts here, lady. How can Aeron publicy accuse Euron of being "Godless" if both the affair with Victarion's wife and the possible molestation would be secrets?

Of course he is not completely true to the 'Old Way', but he respects most of the uses. Then we have that Arya, who wants to change the Ironborn culture utterly is never called "godless".

The Urri connection? It's noteworthy that Aeron never blames Euron for his death. He accuses only the Maester. So I can see yor theory of Euron raping both Euron and Urrigon coming true.

[Old Zog]

The hairy bear-

Aeron may well be "godly" enough that a lot of the Ironborn would accept at his word that Euron is godless.

I think it likely that King Balon was killed by some other Faceless Man - not Jaqen. When we re-meet Jaqen as "the alchemist" in the prologue, he's still wearing the same face he put on when parting from Arya. If he had carried out another mission in the interim, he would have probably changed his face again (IMO). Also, I think the easiest way to reconcile the coincidence of Euron arriving the day after Balon dies is for the Faceless Man to have been travelling with Euron from the start.

When reminiscing about his brothers, Aeron thinks that one day his father's five true sons will feast again in the halls of the Drowned God. (Or something along those lines.) I imagine he excludes Euron from this count (too godless), so he's probably referring to himself, Balon, Victarion, Urri and the older brother who died of greyscale?

[Lady of Leaves]

Very interesting thoughts here, lady. How can Aeron publicy accuse Euron of being "Godless" if both the affair with Victarion's wife and the possible molestation would be secrets?

What struck me in the book was that he never did make any specific accusations about Euron - only that sentiment that he never qualified. I imagine that Damphair is considered quite holy by now, and very few would demand that he explain himself or offer "proof". it is enough that he says it. Also, as Euron's brother most would assume he knew what he is talking about.

Interesting catch you made that Aeron might disapprove of Asha and her plans, but it is not enough for him to call her godless. He doesn't call anyone breaking with tradition godless - it must mean something more.

Zog - I'm in your camp. I never really bought into Jaqen killing Balon. If Jaqen is in fact the Alchemist, then that theory comes tumbling down IMO. Even if the chapters might not be in completely chronological order, the Prologue opens with the Alchemists, who has probably been quite awhile in Old Town to lay his plans. It might be that the Prologue takes place a couple of weeks after Aeron's POV, but that would be rather sloppy of GRRM. If in fact it takes place at approx the same time, then there is no way that the Alchemist is the same person who killed Balon. And considering Euron showing up on the doorstep, I very much doubt it.

But if the pressing appointment Jaqe had was Old Town, and getting a foot hold in the Citadel, then it really opens up the question of who comissioned him. The Spider? For what? How long has he been planning this?

[Reposado]

im not sure if i believe the molestation thin but it is plausible. i was often wondering what was so godless about him when he is otherwise described as keeping to the old ways. there definately is somethig we dont know that aeron does.

zog

the five true brothers does include euron. the one who died from greyscale as well as the sickly boy and the two infants were all halfbrothers.