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Dany's Secret Origin, Her brothers, A Blackfyre & the Blood Betrayal


MizasterJ

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We know that both Jon and Dany are the ultimate essential characters to this story. All other characters are seemingly secondary at best, but Jon and Dany represent Ice & Fire respectively and together they would be the living embodiment of A Song of Ice and Fire.

Their origins are intertwined as are their destinies. Not quite twins, not quite siblings, but opposite sides of the same coin.

The most common and widely accepted theory is Rhaegar impregnated Lyanna Stark during Robert's Rebellion, and she gave birth to Jon Snow. This is a very credible and logical theory based on the evidence, and that Jon should be heir to the throne, but I believe there is more to this puzzle. For instance, the dragon has 3 heads. So who are the other 2 and why are they important? I believe Jon has a step sister AND a step brother, and I'm not talking about any of the Starks.

My approach for considering Daenerys Jon's sister rather than his Aunt is that they were born within 8-9 months of each other (as spoken by GRRM) but also, Ned concerns himself with both of them as if they are both his obligation. Consider how much Ned revolted when he heard Robert's plan to kill Dany, and his fever dream about the Tower of Joy incident immediately following that. How could Dany be linked to the TOJ ?

The 2nd piece of evidence is Dany's vision in the house of the Undying. She sees Rhaegar with his 2nd child( presumably Aegon) from Elia Martell being born Rhaegar comments how their muct be a 3rd child because the dragon has 3 heads. A lot of fans speculate that the 3rd head (child) was Jon Snow yet I propose that it could also and simultaneously be Daenerys herself. But before I get into that let me explain Rhaegar's ambition.

Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecies. Not just the 3 headed dragon prophecy but also the 1st men prophecy of the 1st men tradition of crowning a queen of love and beauty with a crown of flowers.

I strongly believe that Rhaegar was mimicking the story of Bael the Bard. Also by kidnapping a queen of Love and Beauty he legitimises himself as King in the eyes of the old gods, as did Durin God's grief and Bael the bard.

Remember that after Bael kidnapped the daughter he became King (beyond the wall) There fore it's easy to see why Rhaegar would think a Stark daughter must be special in the eyes of the old gods, and after all, the Starks are the closest descendants of the 1st men; they were the last kingdom of the First Men. So marrying a Stark could presumably make you not only king of the north, king of winter, but also king of the first men.

Long ago the ghost of high heart prophesied that the Prince Who Was Promised would be born from the line of the Mad king Aerys Targ and his sister Rhaella, Rhaegar's mother and father. Thus Rhaegar believed his line would create this child savior, but became desperate when his wife Elia failed to produce a 3rd child. The maesters told Rhaegar she would be unable to have any more children. Perhaps the Maesters were manipulating the situation trying to prevent the prophesized 3rd child as we are aware of the Maesters link to the HIghtowers, and house Hightower's long running grudge against the Targs (which probably led to Robert's Rebellion)

However the case Rhaegar was driven to produce the 3rd child & thus impregnated the presumably unwed Lyanna, thereby creating the bastard, Jon Snow. Now if Jon is the bastard son of a Targ that would considerably make him a Blackfyre or at least seen in the same light possibly by his true born brother n sister. But let's back up a minuet. What I'm about to suggest will require you to admit that certain details you have read about Daenerys, especially her origin maybe the case of the unreliable narrator as GRRM loves to use. That's right certain details of Dany's birth such as her mother, father, date of birth, and the place she was raised may have been falsified for her own protection.

Dany may in fact actually have been the natural born child of Elia & Rhaegar or possibly even Rhaegar's father who was obsessed with having another child. Her birth was possibly unbeknownst to Rhaegar and many others.

Rhaegar's father Aerys also married a queen of love and beauty so who is to say that his child might become the fabled Prince. Aerys was a known womanizer and obsessed with having children which Rhealla was mysteriously (was it the maesters trying to prevent the prophecy?) unable to provide. In fact Aerys is highly rumored to be responsible for the birth of Jaime and Cersei who share the Targaryen trait of being incestuous. even though i believe that to be a red herring, when Tywin's wife Joanna returned to King's Landing in 272 AC it might have been that Aerys impregnated her resulting in Tyrion's birth. This is all evidence that Aerys was probably sowing his seed in multiple places. who is to say that he didn't turn his attention towards his son's wife, Elia?

Now you might ask why Elia? Well I ask you to consider Daenerys name; she's not the first. The original Daenerys was a Targ that married and had children with the then Prince of Dorne. I ask you wouldn't it make more sense for Elia rather than Rhaella to name her daughter after a princess of Dorne? Especially considering that Elia is a descendant of the original Daenerys. In fact if Dany was the daughter of Elia & Aerys, that would make her a Targ bastard just like the Blackfyres but also like Shiera Seastar,and Brynden Rivers.

To further stir the pot Aerys was responsible for Elia's marriage to Rhaegar and soon after, Aerys suspected that Rhaegar would betray him,therefore it wouldn't be far fetched to guess that Aerys might have used his wife as leverage against him.

Regardless of who Daenerys father was, if her mother was indeed Elia , that would make her the fabled 3rd child if you also believe young griff to be Elia's Aegon and R+L=J.
However with Elia as the mother this brings up the question of how is it that Dany was said to have been born on Dragonstone while Elia was being murdered in King's Landing? Well I propose to you that Dany was previously born on Dragonstone. I propose that near the beginning of the rebellion Elia & Queen Rhaella together, secretly sent an infant Daenerys and young Viserys to Dorne, where a pact was made for Viserys to marry Arianne and Dany to marry Quentyn. And so the lie was told that she had been born to Rhaella so that Viserys would feel obligated to her rather than threatened by her claim.Also the lie was told to Dany that she had been raised in Braavos rather than her mother's home of Dorne.

I know you must be thinking that the timeline does not reflect this but information can easily and often be falsified.
I believe the house with the red door and the lemon tree outside the window was in Dorne, one of the few places where lemons grow. Months before Dany's birth Lyanna birthed Jon in Dorne, and Ned made a promise to protect his identity ( not only as an heir to the throne but as Lyanna's son and potential heir to the North) & care for him.

However Ned, having ties with Ashara Dayne could have discussed the matter of Dany's heritage and together they may have decided to protect her identity by sending her to the free cities. Coincidentally Varys had already seemingly saved Aegon and spirited him away.

So there we have the 3 heads of the dragon which are all surviving children of Elia Martell descendant of the original Daenerys, but 1 of those 3 children could very well be a Blackfyre, and most likely Aegon.

I believe this is mainly significant because it will lead to the Long Night. When 1 of Dany's brother's commits the worst crime imaginable of kinslaying this will be reminiscent of when the bloodstone emperor killed his sister the Amethyst princess which started the original long night,and as we know in this series history is prone to repeating itself.

In the house of the Undying it was prophesied that Dany will know 3 betrayals. I believe this will be the 1 for blood. Needless to say 1 of Dany's brothers will betray her and once again invoke the long night.
However this will never happen if Brynden Rivers aka Bloodraven aka the 3 eyed crow has anything to do with it,after all he practically dedicated his life to defending the Targ's against the Blackfyres and likely still holds a grudge. However i must also call into question Bloodraven's intentions as he is seemingly guiding Euron to manipulate Dany's dragons and mate with her.

As for the prince who was promised, well Jon seems the most likely candidate but I wouldn't count out Aegon just yet as it seems likely he will be marrying a queen of love and beauty who also happens to be kissed by fire (Sansa). For further detail on this see the Ashford Tourney theory.

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No.



I am sorry, but the timeline simply doesn't fit.



Elia died several months before Dany was even born.


After giving birth to Aegon, Elia could not have any more children.


Dany's birth was quite the public event... She even got the nickname out of it - Stormborn.



Believe it or not, lemons can grow at Braavos. And actually Sealords Palace is one of the best places for growing exotic plants.



Regardless of how convoluted theories people come up with, the simple biology contradicts them every single time. I would sincerely like to hear a theory where dead woman didn't gave birth to a child, or where there is an actual difference between a baby and two year old child... Until that glorious day, to return to the answer at the beginning. No. Nice try, but ultimately the theory is full of holes.


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Elia die 8-9 months before Dany's birth.


Elia cound't had anymore kinds and that is why Rhaegar needed Lyanna.



We know from this e-mail that Jon’s birth is 8-9 months prior to Daenerys’s, and that Daenerys is born almost precisely 9 months after the death of Rhaegar and the Sack of King’s Landing (I: 25).


http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/FAQ/Entry/Who_are_Jon_Snows_parents/





Jon is the sond (son) of Ice (Lyanna) and Rhaegar(Fire)


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House Hightower holds a grudge against House Targaryen? Jon being Rhaegars bastard makes him a Blackfyre? Rhaella can't name her child Daenerys, despite having ancestors named Daenys, Daena and Daenaera?

And the need for the Sealord of Braavos in Dorne... Had this pact been signed anywhere else than Braavos, anyone but he Sealord could have signed it as a witness....

Of course, then there's also the fact that Willem Darry was in KL until he was send away with Rhaella...

And also missing is the logic of "why would Doran allow his sisters child to be send into exile, if he had her safely in his grip?"

In addition, not only does the timeline not fit with essential people being dead... There would have been no time for Elia to birth three children prior to the Rebellion.

Married in 280 AC, nine months of that year have already been filled with the pregnancy that results in Rhaenys. The six months or so that follow Rhaenys' birth consist of Elia on bedrest... Aegon was born around the turning or the year 281 to 282. Make the count: two pregnancies + six months of bedrest equals 9*2+6=24... That's two full years, and with Elia only being fertile for two years after getting married, there simply are no 9 months to fit in yet another pregnancy.

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GRRM has said the vision in the house of the undying was Elia and Rhaegar with their newborn son aegon.

As much as I would love it if one of Elia's children survived I don't think this could possibly work.

Believe it or not, lemons can grow at Braavos. And actually Sealords Palace is one of the best places for growing exotic plants.

Point me to a quote that suggests lemon trees grow in braavos and that they grow in the sealords palace.

Cause I can give you plenty to suggest this isn't true.

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... The most common and widely accepted theory is Rhaegar impregnated Lyanna Stark during Robert's Rebellion, and she gave birth to Jon Snow. This is a very credible and logical theory based on the evidence, and that Jon should be heir to the throne ...

Rhaegar didnot take Lyanna because he (or the IT) lacked heirs.

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Point me to a quote that suggests lemon trees grow in braavos and that they grow in the sealords palace.

Cause I can give you plenty to suggest this isn't true.

World of ice and fire. Look at the map of Braavos.

All those who believe in lemon tree theory have is some just belief that something have to be wrong somewhere. Not actually seeing how dozens small pieces across the series actually fit into what we know. But, no, there has to be some mystery...

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World of ice and fire. Look at the map of Braavos.

All those who believe in lemon tree theory have is some just belief that something have to be wrong somewhere. Not actually seeing how dozens small pieces across the series actually fit into what we know. But, no, there has to be some mystery...

Those are trees. Citrus fruits grow in a different climate than trees.

And yes there is something wrong and there is something mysterious.

The perfume smells daenerys associates with the house are completely different from braavos's typical smell, fish and brine. And from the way it's described it seems likely her house was surrounded by grass and fields.

And it's said by guards in braavos that there isn't any citrus fruits.

Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were oranges in the free cities. Lemons and limes

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If only there was some quote about trees in Braavos...

Trees did not grow on Braavos, save in the courts and gardens of the mighty.

And Dany has been associated with the Sealord of Braavos, as mighty as you might find in that city... The rich are also capable of buying parfumes and such, they have plenty of coin for it.. giving the house its smell....

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If only there was some quote about trees in Braavos...Trees did not grow on Braavos, save in the courts and gardens of the mighty.

And Dany has been associated with the Sealord of Braavos, as mighty as you might find in that city... The rich are also capable of buying parfumes and such, they have plenty of coin for it.. giving the house its smell....

Correct me if I'm wrong but citrus fruits need to grow in a hot climate.

Just because one place can grow one thing doesn't mean they can grow another.

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No.

I am sorry, but the timeline simply doesn't fit.

Elia died several months before Dany was even born.

After giving birth to Aegon, Elia could not have any more children.

Dany's birth was quite the public event... She even got the nickname out of it - Stormborn.

Believe it or not, lemons can grow at Braavos. And actually Sealords Palace is one of the best places for growing exotic plants.

Regardless of how convoluted theories people come up with, the simple biology contradicts them every single time. I would sincerely like to hear a theory where dead woman didn't gave birth to a child, or where there is an actual difference between a baby and two year old child... Until that glorious day, to return to the answer at the beginning. No. Nice try, but ultimately the theory is full of holes.

Sorry but you dont have the privilege or authority of saying No.

The only 1 who does is GRRM & the very few people he shared the actual plot with.

So my theory (Which isnt a try by the way) is still plausible, whether you choose to believe it or not as you desperately cling to your precious timeline and ignore the fact that GRRM often uses the trope of the unreliable narrator.

Yes GRRM said Dany was born 8-9 months near Jon's birth but that doesnt mean her parentage is locked in, and it doesnt mean she can'tt possibly be Jon's step/ sister .

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The obvious explanation for the lemon tree is that Martin hadn't figured out how far north Braavos was when he wrote the first book.That being said, lemons grow in the Mediterranean, whose latitude is probably not so different from Braavos's - Northern Italy is at the same latitude as Boston!


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Sorry but you dont have the privilege or authority of saying No.

The only 1 who does is GRRM & the very few people he shared the actual plot with.

So my theory (Which isnt a try by the way) is still plausible, whether you choose to believe it or not as you desperately cling to your precious timeline and ignore the fact that GRRM often uses the trope of the unreliable narrator.

Yes GRRM said Dany was born 8-9 months near Jon's birth but that doesnt mean her parentage is locked in, and it doesnt mean she can'tt possibly be Jon's step/ sister .

Nor have I claimed the authority. But the fact that this theory goes against basic biology speaks for itself.

If your whole argument is that GRRM hasn't shared with us the ending, the natural and very sound counter-argument is that he already shared with us 5 books filled with countless details. Details this theory obviously goes against.

Your theory is not plausible. The thing is dead woman can't give birth. Not 9 months after her death, which is basically what is told here. This whole theory comes down to this "dead woman gave birth to a child nine months after her death".

Even if I am open-minded about Dany's parentage, your theory, however, goes against the logic itself. Basically, the thing is that theory has to fit with established facts and thus can easily be discarded.

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No, I just looked it up they need to grow in TROPICAL climates.

And that's the way it's been described in the book.

Untrue. Citrus trees can very easily be grown in temperate climates. The only thing you have to do is to carry them inside during the winter. That's it. You don't even need a greenhouse. I googled "grow citrus trees indoors" and got tons of hits.

I think the freakin' Sealord of Braavos can afford a large container and a few servants to carry it in and out of the courtyard in the winter.

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Untrue. Citrus trees can very easily be grown in temperate climates. The only thing you have to do is to carry them inside during the winter. That's it. You don't even need a greenhouse. I googled "grow citrus trees indoors" and got tons of hits.

I think the freakin' Sealord of Braavos can afford a large container and a few servants to carry it in and out of the courtyard in the winter.

It's always winter in braavos. Three types of weather. Fog, rain and freezing rain.

Daenerys clearly saw the tree outside not in a greenhouse.

Plus it's more than the tree. The environment dany describes is completely different from the depressing, gloomy one that is braavos.

And is this topic about lemon trees? We need to stop arguing about this.

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It's always winter in braavos. Three types of weather. Fog, rain and freezing rain.

Daenerys clearly saw the tree outside not in a greenhouse.

Plus it's more than the tree. The environment dany describes is completely different from the depressing, gloomy one that is braavos.

And is this topic about lemon trees? We need to stop arguing about this.

Like I said, you don't need a greenhouse. You bring it inside to avoid frost damage and grow it like a houseplant. Google it. The climate of Braavos is seemingly similar to the northern half of Great Britain and you can certainly use this method to grow citrus in the UK, inland temperate US, and a variety of other cold climates. The danger to the plant is a hard frost (<25 F). Rain & fog are not an issue. You can grow them in desert climates (if watered), as well as tropical (tons of rain) and subtropical (think SE US) outdoors year-round, and in temperate climates they can be outdoors as long as it's not <25 F.

And yes, it's related to the topic because the OP includes it as part of his theory (it being, that Dany is really in Dorne not Braavos).

IMO Dany being someone else's child besides Aerys is possible, but Rhaella is definitely her mother.

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^ i love it, love how worked up people get over something soooooo minor.

And as i've pointed out there's more to it than the lemon tree.

Example the setting is totally different. Braavos doesn't (with the pavements and stone) sound like a place where children run around barefoot on grass.

Not even going to continue with this pointless arguement. Happens all the time in threads. Its just boring and pointless, no one changes there mind

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There is more than one way to make sense of that vexing lemon tree, besides the strictly literal. Author vagueness early in the story-telling process, exotic trees well able to grow outside of their usual habitats if particular care is given, "the courts and gardens of the mighty" who would be well able to care for a temperamental exotic plant, Dany conflating various childhood memories into a vision of an idealized childhood that she never really experienced, etc.



All of these make sense, both with what is possible in real life and thematically in the story, but none of them require Dany to have different parent(s) or have never been to Braavos. The lemon tree as a clue that Dany's life so far has been one long lie, simply fails.

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Re: "courts and gardens of the mighty."



While it's true that Dany was at some point apparently under the protection of the Sealord of Braavos, it doesn't seem very likely to me that she grew up in his palace. The stone house with the red door doesn't really sound like a palace. Dany is an unreliable narrator, but things look bigger to small children so if she had lived in the actual palace it seems like she would exaggerate how large it was rather than describing it as a house.



Besides, if she was living with the Sealord, why did she and Viserys get kicked out after Darry died?


It seems far more likely to me that, wherever she was living (I'm not totally convinced of either Dorne or Braavos, both present complications in logic), she was not in the actual home of whoever was hiding her. Which makes sense, since Darry was hiding them. It seems most likely to me that whoever-it-was gave Darry and the children the use of a stone house in a relatively secluded place. It makes the most sense logically if you're trying to hide someone, *and* it jives with the tree and the fields of grass.



So I'm not saying she was definitely in Dorne, but I'm pretty sure she was not actually inside the palace of the Sealord.



Of course this doesn't rule out the possibility that it was some vacation house of the Sealord that had it's own expert gardeners who managed to grow lemon trees in inclement weather. I'm just saying I don't think the "courts and gardens of the mighty" quote or the little picture of trees in the Sealord's palace in the Worldbook are conclusive answers to the questions raised by citrus trees appearing in Dorne and not Braavos.


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