Ashara Dayne's child

[LordQorgyle]

If Ashara had been dishonored by Ned, he would not have waited months to marry her, he would have done it in the next day, as Robb did.

Wrong as a second son he couldn't marry without Rickard's approval and why would Rickard's only daughter and a maid go see the birth of a bastard?

[Minuteman]

Does Ned think about Ashara even once during his 15 POV chapters? Not that I recall and it does not jive with what is known about Ned's character: that he would not spare a single though for the woman he supposedly fathered a child on and presumably cared for, even if it was 15 years later. This rules out Ned as the father, imo.

Cat has a memory where she asks Ned about whether or not Ashara is Jon's mother. She mentions Ned's face going to stone and coldly asking her where she had heard that name. She said it was servants rumors after which Ned immediately got out of bed and left her. Afterward she never again heard the name Ashara Dayne nor asked Ned about Jon's mother. This sounds to me like he was suppressing a very painful memory. He likely does feel responsibility over Ashara's suicide.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

It was a veiled reprimand to Brandon - "It's not because you are the son of a great lord that you can freely dishonor a lady, because the same could happen to your sister". It explains why he lost his mind when he learned that Lyanna had been seen in Rhaegar's company.

I should had suspected that it wouldn't make sense... so now Rhaegar is something between Batman and Robin Hood who takes from the rich to give to the poor and someone who insulted and besmirched Lyanna in order to give Brandon a lesson?

[Marcel]

He couldn't. Not without the permission of his father and Ashara's brother. These people are all high nobility so the marriage is up to the heads of household not themselves as Tywin proved so dramatically. Robb was the head of House Stark so needed no other permission other than the consent of his intended's head of house. The Westerlings assented so the marriage was done. It wasn't a path available to either Ned or Ashara. Tywin's noting Robb Stark as his father's son had to do with explaining his actions. He married the first maid he "deflowered" which is not a common trait among the nobility.

Sorry, what I said was just hyperbole. My point is that Ned would not take months to resolve the matter involving marriage with Ashara, even more if she was pregnant. I think this issue is a little more complicated. Ned may have been needed to repair another act of Brandon. We know from Lady Dustin that her father nursed the idea to wed her to Ned. Why Lord Rodrik Ryswell would nurse such idea? Is it possible that he was considering to take the issue regarding her dishonoring by Brandon to Lord Rickard Stark and hoped that he would offer Ned as a compensation

[Saint Saga]

I think Ned and Ashara were in love, but Brandon raped Ashara.In the first book Ned shows a strange hatred toward his brother.

Ashara then came to Ned, and they make plans,but the war broke.

Eddard said something about doing sacrificeS to keep his promise to Lyana.

I dont know what he said, but maybe trying to protect Jon's identity Ned lied to her, and she killed herself.

[Consigliere]

Cat has a memory where she asks Ned about whether or not Ashara is Jon's mother. She mentions Ned's face going to stone and coldly asking her where she had heard that name. She said it was servants rumors after which Ned immediately got out of bed and left her. Afterward she never again heard the name Ashara Dayne nor asked Ned about Jon's mother. This sounds to me like he was suppressing a very painful memory. He likely does feel responsibility over Ashara's suicide.

Or putting an end to any talk surrounding the identity of Jon's mother. In Ned's POV the only woman he thinks of with any affection, apart from his wife and daughters, is Lyanna. Seems odd that he does not spare a single thought on Ashara in his POV especially if he was the father of her child, cared for/loved her or bears guilt over her suicide.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I think Ned and Ashara were in love, but Brandon raped Ashara.In the first book Ned shows a strange hatred toward his brother.

Sure. Someone hated his brother and named his son after him and buried his brother with the Lords in the cryprts...

imnsho Ned still was jealous.

[Marcel]

I should had suspected that it wouldn't make sense... so now Rhaegar is something between Batman and Robin Hood who takes from the rich to give to the poor and someone who insulted and besmirched Lyanna in order to give Brandon a lesson?

I see no comparison with Batman and Robin, although from the ideas presented in your signature I can understand why you might see some similarity. Rhaegar would have reason to cater to a request from Arthur, who was his best friend and likely partner in any plot involving the replacement of Aerys. And about offending Lyanna, Rhaegar and Elia were those who were left with the image scratched. For the rest, the act served as a recognition of Lyanna's beauty . But , from what we know about Brandon's reaction, he got the message.

[LordQorgyle]

Where did Ned show any hate towards Brandon?

He even put the statue of Brandon in the cripts despite the fact that he wasn't a lord

[Bael's Bastard]

Does Ned think about Ashara even once during his 15 POV chapters? Not that I recall and it does not jive with what is known about Ned's character: that he would not spare a single thought for the woman he supposedly fathered a child on and presumably cared for, even if it was 15 years later. This rules out Ned as the father, imo.

I don't know, he doesn't seem to think about any woman. And yet there does seem to be a hint of guilt as if he really did break his marriage vows.

[Minuteman]

Sorry, what I said was just hyperbole. My point is that Ned would not take months to resolve the matter involving marriage with Ashara, even more if she was pregnant. I think this issue is a little more complicated. Ned may have been needed to repair another act of Brandon. We know from Lady Dustin that her father nursed the idea to wed her to Ned. Why Lord Rodrik Ryswell would nurse such idea? Is it possible that he was considering to take the issue regarding her dishonoring by Brandon to Lord Rickard Stark and hoped that he would offer Ned as a compensation

Doesn't seem likely for two reasons. The Daynes are Dornish so they wouldn't have the same derision for bastards and pre-marital relations as the other parts. The second is that Ned is the second son. The spare to the heir. So he would be used to form a valuable marriage alliance not simply to smooth over some stain on Brandon considering that Brandon was known to play the field. Also, I don't think Ned would hold his father and brother in such esteem as to name two of his sons after them if he was compelled by them to marry his brother's lover. Ashara was beautiful and Ned liked her but pride tends to accompany honor so I don't see him going for it. Not a bad idea though and certainly possible.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I see no comparison with Batman and Robin, although from the ideas presented in your signature I can understand why you might see some similarity. Rhaegar would have reason to cater to a request from Arthur, who was his best friend and likely partner in any plot involving the replacement of Aerys. And about offending Lyanna, Rhaegar and Elia were those who were left with the image scratched. For the rest, the act served as a recognition of Lyanna's beauty . But , from what we know about Brandon's reaction, he got the message.

From what you said it seemed like Rhaegar wanted to punish Brandon for what he did, which isn't in the text btw but Brandon being the bad guy is something extremely common here it doensn't matter that it isn't in the text, by insulting Lyanna. What Rhaegar did to her was an insult.

[Consigliere]

I don't know, he doesn't seem to think about any woman. And yet there does seem to be a hint of guilt as if he really did break his marriage vows.

Well he does think about his wfe and daughters as well as Lyanna. Not sure on the bolded. Any relationship with Ashara would predate his marriage to Catelyn, no? IMO, the guilt has nothing to do with breaking his marriage vows but rather the price he had to pay to keep "the promise" as this affected his relationship with Cat and Cat's relationship with Jon.

[Marcel]

Doesn't seem likely for two reasons. The Daynes are Dornish so they wouldn't have the same derision for bastards and pre-marital relations as the other parts. The second is that Ned is the second son. The spare to the heir. So he would be used to form a valuable marriage alliance not simply to smooth over some stain on Brandon considering the Brandon was known to play the field. Also, I don't think Ned would hold his father and brother in such esteem as to name two of his sons after them if he was compelled by them to marry his brother's lover. Ashara was beautiful and Ned liked her but pride tends to accompany honor so I don't see him going for it. Not a bad idea though and certainly possible.

I disagree with that assessment in relation to the dornishes. As in The North and in The Riverlands, not all noble houses are equal within the same kingdom. You have House Manderly and House Blackwood, for example. And there is a SSM regarding Dorne where it is stated that the "stony dornishmen" are somewht culturally different from the rest. House Dayne are part of these "stony dornishmen".

[Marcel]

From what you said it seemed like Rhaegar wanted to punish Brandon for what he did, which isn't in the text btw but Brandon being the bad guy is something extremely common here it doensn't matter that it isn't in the text, by insulting Lyanna. What Rhaegar did to her was an insult.

But a very clever one. Only Rhaegar and Brandon understood the message - of course it later backfired, but that would be unpredictable.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

But a very clever one. Only Rhaegar and Brandon understood the message - of course it later backfired, but that would be unpredictable.

I really connot say if you are serious or not. Or there is another book where Brandon had do all that and caused the LN1.0, the Doom, broke the Arm of Dorne and so on. But saying that Rhaegar wanted to give a lesson to Brandon by insulting Lyanna is beyond ridiculous and it is the end from my side.

[Bael's Bastard]

Well he does think about his wfe and daughters as well as Lyanna. Not sure on the bolded. Any relationship with Ashara would predate his marriage to Catelyn, no? IMO, the guilt has nothing to do with breaking his marriage vows but rather the price he had to pay to keep "the promise" as this affected his relationship with Cat and Cat's relationship with Jon.

I don't mean that Ned doesn't think about any women (such as his wife and family), but that he doesn't think of any woman (as in a love interest).

I got the impression from his conversation with Robert about the mother of his bastard that he may have indeed broken his vows during the war. But it could also just be him wanting to keep Robert from thinking or talking too much about Jon. Or it could be both.

For him to have broken his vows with Ashara it would IIRC have had to be during the war.

[LordQorgyle]

Well he does think about his wfe and daughters as well as Lyanna. Not sure on the bolded. Any relationship with Ashara would predate his marriage to Catelyn, no? IMO, the guilt has nothing to do with breaking his marriage vows but rather the price he had to pay to keep "the promise" as this affected his relationship with Cat and Cat's relationship with Jon.

The only time i remember him thinking about Lyanna is when he's dreaming with the milk of the puppy it isn't a conscientt thinking, he never thought about her consciently, because it hurt him, the same about Ashara

[Marcel]

I really connot say if you are serious or not. Or there is another book where Brandon had do all that and caused the LN1.0, the Doom, broke the Arm of Dorne and so on. But saying that Rhaegar wanted to give a lesson to Brandon by insulting Lyanna is beyond ridiculous and it is the end from my side.

Regarding the crown of blue winter roses, nothing is in the text, btw. There is nothing that tells us about Rhaegar's true intentions, or we would not have so much speculation here. All we have are interpretations of such gesture. Some believe it was a romantic gesture, others believe it was for recognition because Lyanna was the KoTLT, but both interpretations also have little basis in the text. That Lyanna was the KoTLT, for example, is quite debatable. If you think it is "beyond ridiculous", it's your right to do so, unlike some here I do not take my opinions as facts. I certainly do not consider you a reliable judge of what is or is not ridiculous, judging by some of the guesswork with which you agree. So, farewell.

[Saint Saga]

Sure. Someone hated his brother and named his son after him and buried his brother with the Lords in the cryprts...

imnsho Ned still was jealous.

Brandon probably died after his father, so for a short time he was the Lord of House Stark.

About naming his son after the bother he was jealous,how many Brandons exist in the Stark family? Its a common name for a Stark,there were good and cruel Brandons in the past.

The fact is that at his own mind Ned shows some angry issues toward his brother,that Brandon always "needed "to be the first in everything.

After the reveal of the Lady Dustin affair, and that Brandon loved to deflore young ladies,he forcing his way with Ashara is logical.

Brandon liked to be the first in everything, liked to deflore virgins. He was the first to talk to Ashara, he introduced Ned to her,maybe he thought that should bang her first also.

If that was forced or consensual, who knows.