Ashara Dayne's child

[PrettyPig]

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well.

I find it interesting that no one, and I mean no one, has looked at this statement through the eyes of the person making it.

Barristan Selmy has been a knight for four decades at this point, and a knight of the KG for a majority of it. His very definition of honor is couched in terms of one thing: a white cloak. When Barristan thinks of dishonor, he is thinking of it in relation to an oath and duty. It's all he knows.

From Barriston's point of view, if there was dishonor, it was in relation to a knight and a vow. If there was dishonor to Ashara, it was something that brought shame to her name. Ashara was mad with grief for child recently lost, and a man recently lost. A man recently lost who, to Barristan, brought dishonor to the woman Selmy loved by doing what is to Selmy the ultimate, worst, terrible, horrible, very bad thing: soiling his cloak and shaming his family. Even if it wasn't public or well known, the Kingsguard still know the secrets of their brothers in white.

The man who dishonored Ashara at Harrenhal was her own brother, Arthur Dayne, and it had nothing to do with a baby.

[hallam]

The man who dishonored Ashara at Harrenhal was her own brother, Arthur Dayne, and it had nothing to do with a baby.

You might be right. She is mad with grief for the man who dishonored her, not for being dishonored. Suggesting the man is dead.

The idea that Rheagar persuaded Arthur Dayne to lose so he could give the favor to Lyanna sounds more credible. But we still have no good explanation for why.

If Rheagar wants some high class totty, he can get all he wants without difficulty. There is something very particular he wants from Lyanna that I suspect has to do with the prophecy.

Note that the knight of the laughing tree defeats three knights. Threes pop up a lot. If R+?=J then Rheagar, Aerys and Tywin all have three children (not counting stillbirths). The third one of which is a suspected Targarean.

I am pretty sure that the explanation for the actions lies in the prophecy driving Rheagar and quite possibly Aerys.

[Sigella]

Selmy also thinks that Dany has the same eyes as Ashara and that sometimes when he looks at her he thinks that he's looking at Asharas daughter.

I think its quite strong as far as clues goes.

[sweetsunray]

For me, Selmy's thought about 'looking at a Stark' in combination with him winning the tournament instead of Rhaegar to proclaim her queen of beauty and love, indicates he wishes he could have expressed his courtly love for her and make her look at him fondly instead of a Stark. So, it suggests that Ashara was in love with a Stark, either Brandon or Ned (Benjen being too young).

Ned's too shy and his brother Brandon talks with her on his brother's behalf, and they dance. Agreed that Ned might have been generally shy, but it just as well suggests that Ned was shy around Ashara, because he took a liking to her, especially because Brandon makes the effort to suggest her to dance with Ned.

Howland Reed watches all the men she dances with at the opening feast: while people may wonder whether HR was interested in her, it seems to indicate to me that now that he's welcomed by Lyanna, Benjen and Ned as a friend in their little party, he knows that Ned fancies Ashara but is too shy to take any initiative about it. As a friend of Ned's HR would be interested in seeing who Ashara dances with. If Brandon knows enough to talk to Ashara and point his younger brother out to her, then so would HR.

Then there are the rumors in WF that Ned and Ashara had a thing. Sure it serves as a red herring regarding Jon, but there must have been something going on for the servants to think something was going on between them.

And then there is Ned Dayne's story (who's named after Eddard Stark). While sure, Ned Dayne might have a simplified version, he has it from Allyria. While they're both too young to know the details, Ned Dayne and Allyria are not just gossiping servants at Starfall. And apparently they talk of it as a certainty and rather openly about it, which indicates that Ned Dayne's father does not negate or squelshes the story. It seems rather strange that a Lord of Starfall would not silence rumors about Ned and Ashara, if he thinks highly enough of Ned Stark to name his own son after the man, years later after Ashara committed suicide.

So, I think that there is truth in all of this insofar that Ashara and Ned Stark indeed happened to favour each other in the course of the tourney, and that they both hoped to be wed. Even although there was a year between HH tourney and Lyanna's abduction and ample time to arrange a wedding between Ned and Ashara, one must also take into account that it would have been unlikely for the second son to wed before Brandon who was bethroted to Catelyn for years already.

So, the question would be to me whether either Ned got it on with Ashara and even got her with child OR somebody else did (like his older brother).

If Ashara was pregnant by either one of the brothers, it would seem as if a wedding between Ned and Ashara was in need of urgency. But in a way, such urgency would only have highlighted the dishonor for the match - they had to marry quickly, because she was with child already. It seems to me that instead Ashara's parents opted for something else - the daughter born to Ashara will be passed off as her sister instead, and the lie spread that her child was stillborn. I think Ashara's parents kept quite about Ashara's pregnancy - she left KL and remained at Starfall, so they could claim the child was stillborn - either on their account OR as a request by Rickard Stark in exchange for a promise that a match would be arranged between Ned and Ashara after Brandon gets married, with all its grandeur and officiality. This explains why Ned Dayne and Allyria would believe Ashara to have been heartbroken over Ned Stark, but not know that Allyria is Ashara's daughter (and very conveniently Ser Beric says he can't even remember what his bethroted looks like after being ressurected so many times). Also note that Ned Stark himself may not have yet been informed of such a future alliance by his father.

So, why did she leap from a tower, perhaps for the man (per Selmy, Allyria and Ned Dayne)? Because Ned Stark was forced to marry Catelyn Tully after his brother's death, and Ashara did not learn of it, until Ned came to Starfall with Dawn. If there only had been marriage talk between the Daynes and Rickard Stark, and Ned Stark didn't know about it even, then he would have gone to Starfall unknowing how much his duty to the Tully-Stark engagement would have messed Ashara up. Her brother was dead, her daughter passed off as a sister and the man she loved married to Catelyn.

The combination of an officialy promised man who did his duty insofar he knew, and only later learned of a stillborn child, would also create the impression with Ashara's brother to call his son after Ned, and yet his affair with Ashara would lead to the wide belief at Starfall that Wylla was Jon's mother, and allow her to be Ned Dayne's wet nurse; as well as Ned being adament about being angry over the mentioning of Ashara. His response to the rumor seems to be more than just protecting Jon, but Ashara's memory as well.

I don't see it past Brandon to have seduced Ashara himself, but I don't think Ashara was in love with him for any long time. It makes little sense for Ashara to leap to her death a year after Brandon's death. Starfall may be as south as sought goes, but it is reachable by ravens. And though it would have been necessary to preserve Ashara's honor for her to make a good match, and the Daynes are not necessarily the same as the Martells (the first being pre Rhoynish, and the latter post-Rhoynish) when it comes to deflowering and bastard children, it does not seem that the Daynes are overly concerned about natural children. The whole bastard-honor stuff seems to me to stem mostly from the Andal's faith of 7 and the central regions of Westeros - Stormlands, King's Landing, Riverlands, Westerlands, Vale, Reach; just as female knighthood is looked down upon in those regions (they laugh at Brienne), but not so much in Dorne nor the North even (with the Mormonts).

[sweetsunray]

I find it interesting that no one, and I mean no one, has looked at this statement through the eyes of the person making it.

Barristan Selmy has been a knight for four decades at this point, and a knight of the KG for a majority of it. His very definition of honor is couched in terms of one thing: a white cloak. When Barristan thinks of dishonor, he is thinking of it in relation to an oath and duty. It's all he knows.

From Barriston's point of view, if there was dishonor, it was in relation to a knight and a vow. If there was dishonor to Ashara, it was something that brought shame to her name. Ashara was mad with grief for child recently lost, and a man recently lost. A man recently lost who, to Barristan, brought dishonor to the woman Selmy loved by doing what is to Selmy the ultimate, worst, terrible, horrible, very bad thing: soiling his cloak and shaming his family. Even if it wasn't public or well known, the Kingsguard still know the secrets of their brothers in white.

The man who dishonored Ashara at Harrenhal was her own brother, Arthur Dayne, and it had nothing to do with a baby.

I agree that the "dishonoring" should be looked at from Selmy's POV. However, it does not just have to from KG's POV, but can also imply his cultural background. House Selmy is from the Stormlands, which is basically Andal's Faith of 7. The Stormlands have some of the most mysoginistic views. It's a culture where women are supposed to rmain chaste, son-making machines and certainly not fight. And they're not the only region taht thinks like that - Westerlands, Riverlands, etc.. However, Dorne has a different cultural background, as does the North.

[Ygrain]

But there are clues for R+L=J.

Nothing suggests that looked to a Stark means Brandon fathered her child.

As sweetsunray says, the way Barristan muses how his winning the tournament might have prevented Ashara's tragedy because she might have looked to him instead of Stark, suggests that her dishonouring had something to do with the Starks. It would be very much out of character for Ned to be the culprit (and inconsistent with Barristan's respect for him), Benjen is but a "pup", Lyanna has her own romance going, which leaves us with Brandon who is not opposed to a tumble with a young lady.

[Sansa Snow]

As sweetsunray says, the way Barristan muses how his winning the tournament might have prevented Ashara's tragedy because she might have looked to him instead of Stark, suggests that her dishonouring had something to do with the Starks. It would be very much out of character for Ned to be the culprit (and inconsistent with Barristan's respect for him), Benjen is but a "pup", Lyanna has her own romance going, which leaves us with Brandon who is not opposed to a tumble with a young lady.

I don't see it that way, I think it means that something happened and she looked to a Stark for help or to ask some kind of favour and that Stark would be Ned, because he is the one who has been connected to her in the books.

And like I said earlier, why would looked to a Stark mean that Stark fathered her child? Why would it be that easy? GRRM told us that Ashara looked to a Stark and that's it. We don't know why yet, but I guess we are going to find out at some point.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

{snipped}

Just two quick things: first, the quote is that Ashara looked TO a Stark, not AT a Stark. That may change the interpretation of that statement a bit.

Also, it seems pretty counter-intuitive to assume that the Daynes named their young heir after Ned Stark since the two first names are actually completely different. Eddard Stark and Edric Dayne. The dimunitive "Ned" for both of them doesn't prove anything either way, in my view; it seems more like a standard nickname for names beginning with Ed.

On the other hand, there is the possibility (I think it was in the Howland Reed + Ashara Dayne = Meera Reed thread) that "Edric" might be a combination of Eddard and Rickard. If so, that would fit in more with the Daynes honoring Ned (or the Starks generally).

[sgtpimenta]

As sweetsunray says, the way Barristan muses how his winning the tournament might have prevented Ashara's tragedy because she might have looked to him instead of Stark, suggests that her dishonouring had something to do with the Starks. It would be very much out of character for Ned to be the culprit (and inconsistent with Barristan's respect for him), Benjen is but a "pup", Lyanna has her own romance going, which leaves us with Brandon who is not opposed to a tumble with a young lady.

I hear you. But I think it would dishonest if Barry would mention a Stark meaning Brandon. I mean, come on! No one in-world even mentions the possibility that Brandon was involved with Ashara. On the other hand, there's a lot of speculation involving Ned.

[Minuteman]

When Tyrion showed astonishment that Robb Stark would marry a woman simply because he had deflowered her prompted Tywin to make this observation: "Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter and Robb Stark his father's son." Interesting observation. If Ned had slept with Ashara at Harrnehal and made her pregnant he certainly would have tried to marry her but unlike Robb Ned was not the head of his house at the time so would have needed his fathers consent. As both were high nobility this would involve negotiation between the Lord of Winterfell and the Lord of Starfall which means time. I think a marriage was arranged between Ned and Ashara but before it could happen Rickard and Brandon were killed and a royal death warrant was issued for Ned. Ned would have offered the Daynes the opportunity in light of changed circumstance to withdraw from the marriage contract without being deemed oathbreakers to which they assented. Ned then marries Cat in lieu of Brandon and is forever lost to Ashara. That's how I interpret all of the clues though others are certain to disagree.

[Hangover of the Morning]

When Tyrion showed astonishment that Robb Stark would marry a woman simply because he had deflowered her prompted Tywin to make this observation: "Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter and Robb Stark his father's son." Interesting observation. If Ned had slept with Ashara at Harrnehal and made her pregnant he certainly would have tried to marry her but unlike Robb Ned was not the head of his house at the time so would have needed his fathers consent. As both were high nobility this would involve negotiation between the Lord of Winterfell and the Lord of Starfall which means time. I think a marriage was arranged between Ned and Ashara but before it could happen Rickard and Brandon were killed and a royal death warrant was issued for Ned. Ned would have offered the Daynes the opportunity in light of changed circumstance to withdraw from the marriage contract without being deemed oathbreakers to which they assented. Ned then marries Cat in lieu of Brandon and is forever lost to Ashara. That's how I interpret all of the clues though others are certain to disagree.

The Tywin's quotes actually corroborates that Ned probably wasn't the father.

If Ned was not only the father of Ashara's child but also was betrothed to her at some point, it really stretches the suspension of disbelief that he would never ever think about her in his POV.

[Minuteman]

The Tywin's quotes actually corroborates that Ned probably wasn't the father.

If Ned was not only the father of Ashara's child but also was betrothed to her at some point, it really stretches the suspension of disbelief that he would never ever think about her in his POV.

The only times he thinks of Lyanna is when he's fevered or when asked specifically about her. He never volunteers a thought for her otherwise. Or his father or elder brother. Doesn't mean much imho other than the author is writing to obscure a mystery. Everyone who has knowledge of the Harrenhal tourney is surprised the Ned never mentioned it to his children. Perhaps the reason that he doesn't ever speak to anyone about what is obviously a seminal event for him is because it is a painful memory. If it was simply a matter that Brandon knocked up some high born looker that Ned had a crush on then it's nothing that Ned would make pains never to speak or think of. Brandon was a known playboy so it's a small issue.

And I don't get where you think Tywins quote supports Ned as not being the father. Robb married the first maiden he deflowered because he felt it less than honorable to do otherwise. Tywin implies that Ned would have done the same but since the only coupling we know for sure was between Cat and Ned after they got married then it is not applicable to that event. It corroborates that Ned may have "dishonored" a maiden himself and then tried to marry her - no more or less. But as I said it was Robb's decision to make in his case but not Ned's when Rickard was head of House Stark. As I mentioned I think Ned was in the process of getting married when Roberts Rebellion got in the way.

[Ygrain]

I don't see it that way, I think it means that something happened and she looked to a Stark for help or to ask some kind of favour and that Stark would be Ned, because he is the one who has been connected to her in the books.

And like I said earlier, why would looked to a Stark mean that Stark fathered her child? Why would it be that easy? GRRM told us that Ashara looked to a Stark and that's it. We don't know why yet, but I guess we are going to find out at some point.

You're missing the context of Barristan's statement:

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

Barristan thinks that had he confessed his romantic feelings for Ashara, he might have prevented her tragedy by diverting her attention from Stark. Why would he think so if it wasn't the said attention that proved detrimental for her? What other kind of detrimental attention might it be? How would it be related to her dishonour?

And sorry but the fact that Ned and Ashara are gossiped about doesn't mean a thing, a lot of things that are rumoured are known to be untrue. Ned was mud, too shy to ask her for a dance. Brandon was fire, a ladies' men, everything was always for Brandon. Which one is more likely to get laid?

I hear you. But I think it would dishonest if Barry would mention a Stark meaning Brandon. I mean, come on! No one in-world even mentions the possibility that Brandon was involved with Ashara. On the other hand, there's a lot of speculation involving Ned.

See above. Plus, the juicy gossip of her committing suicide after his visit.

[Hangover of the Morning]

And I don't get where you think Tywins quote supports Ned as not being the father. Robb married the first maiden he deflowered because he felt it less than honorable to do otherwise. Tywin implies that Ned would have done the same but since the only coupling we know for sure was between Cat and Ned after they got married then it is not applicable to that event. It corroborates that Ned may have "dishonored" a maiden himself and then tried to marry her - no more or less. But as I said it was Robb's decision to make in his case but not Ned's when Rickard was head of House Stark. As I mentioned I think Ned was in the process of getting married when Roberts Rebellion got in the way.

It implies that if Ned had slept with a highborn lady, he would have married her. There's exactly zero hints in the books to indicate that Ashara/Ned match was ever even a remote possibility. George doesn't just spring things like that out of the blue. If Ned was betrothed to anyone prior to Catelyn or actively tried to marry someone else at that time, we'd get some clues.

We hear first-hand all the rumours about Ashara and Ned but the careful reader can discern that the timeline is wrong, that it contradicts Ned's character and that Selmy would probably not think so highly of Ned if he was the one who disgraced his beloved. It's a similar trick to how we were meant to perceive Rhaegar in the first book. We heard all the horror stories about him from Robert but I still couldn't shake the feeling that there was more to it and that he probably wasn't that bad. I didn't realise it at that point but the reason was obviously the fact that Ned didn't seem to share his friends view.

[Bael's Bastard]

We are getting details where the author chooses to give them to us. And we get Ned beheading the NW deserter and getting the news of Jon's death and Robert coming north from other POVs. The author is definitely selective about what we get from Ned. I think it is likely Ned and Ashara were not betrothed to eachother or anyone, but they were also two young attractive highborn adults. It would be odd if there weren't attractions or more, whether together or with others. I think the Ned Ashara thing sounds like a cover, but I also wouldn't be surprised if there was something there, however far it went.

[Hangover of the Morning]

We are getting details where the author chooses to give them to us. And we get Ned beheading the NW deserter and getting the news of Jon's death and Robert coming north from other POVs. The author is definitely selective about what we get from Ned. I think it is likely Ned and Ashara were not betrothed to eachother or anyone, but they were also two young attractive highborn adults. It would be odd if there weren't attractions or more, whether together or with others. I think the Ned Ashara thing sounds like a cover, but I also wouldn't be surprised if there was something there, however far it went.

I don't doubt that Ned had a crush on Ashara. I think that one is given. She might have even reciprocated. I am questioning the likelihood of Ned being the person that seduced her at Harrenhal and left her with a bastard.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

When Tyrion showed astonishment that Robb Stark would marry a woman simply because he had deflowered her prompted Tywin to make this observation: "Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter and Robb Stark his father's son." Interesting observation. If Ned had slept with Ashara at Harrnehal and made her pregnant he certainly would have tried to marry her but unlike Robb Ned was not the head of his house at the time so would have needed his fathers consent. As both were high nobility this would involve negotiation between the Lord of Winterfell and the Lord of Starfall which means time. I think a marriage was arranged between Ned and Ashara but before it could happen Rickard and Brandon were killed and a royal death warrant was issued for Ned. Ned would have offered the Daynes the opportunity in light of changed circumstance to withdraw from the marriage contract without being deemed oathbreakers to which they assented. Ned then marries Cat in lieu of Brandon and is forever lost to Ashara. That's how I interpret all of the clues though others are certain to disagree.

Not necessarily. There are examples of grown children marrying without their parents' consent even in the royal family. If Ned had slept with Ashara, he would have married her and hoped that it was easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

double post

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I don't doubt that Ned had a crush on Ashara. I think that one is given. She might have even reciprocated. I am questioning the likelihood of Ned being the person that seduced her at Harrenhal and left her with a bastard.

Agreed. And I question why everyone assumes she got pregnant AT Harrenhal. Just getting caught kissing a guy would have destroyed her reputation in most of Westeros. The pregnancy (if there was one) could have occurred later.

[Sansa Snow]

You're missing the context of Barristan's statement:

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

Barristan thinks that had he confessed his romantic feelings for Ashara, he might have prevented her tragedy by diverting her attention from Stark. Why would he think so if it wasn't the said attention that proved detrimental for her? What other kind of detrimental attention might it be? How would it be related to her dishonour?

And sorry but the fact that Ned and Ashara are gossiped about doesn't mean a thing, a lot of things that are rumoured are known to be untrue. Ned was mud, too shy to ask her for a dance. Brandon was fire, a ladies' men, everything was always for Brandon. Which one is more likely to get laid?

See above. Plus, the juicy gossip of her committing suicide after his visit.

Those rumours about Ned and Ashara have to originate from somewhere. Even Cersei teases Ned about Ashara. They probably weren't lovers, but there must have been something between them. I don't think they were just dance partners.

Ned's reaction to Catelyn's Ashara question is also weird. It seems to me that he's angry reaction had more to do with Ashara than Cat's qestion about Jon's mother. Maybe Ashara hurt him somehow.

I think it's much more likely that it's Ned who had something with Ashara, not Brandon.