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How to solve this inconsistency concerning Yi Ti


Mithras

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I think some people are way too quick to dismiss oral traditions and myth in general as an accurate vehicle of relaying information, when in real life oral traditions can actually be quite accurate, more so than records copied in writing, because oral traditions usually rely on rhyme, meter, and verse to keep the information consistent - you can't change so much as a syllable without screwing up the pattern. In societies where oral traditions are the main form of record keeping, often times the relaying of the oral traditions fro the older generation to the younger is a very, very serious and sacred undertaking which is one of the defining elements of that society.

Now we don't have a specific story about the First Men having such a tradition, though many things are recorded in song. If you haven't figured out by now that the fishwives, wet nurses, fisher folk and singers have more of the truth than the maesters and high lords, you're not paying attention to the book Martin is writing.

This issue of iron and steel has been discussed a few times. What seems to be the picture is that iron did exist in Westeros, but not very good iron. It was used by the Kings of Winter for the longswords guarding the sepulchres, and their crown as well. Old Nan says the Others of the LN hated the touch of iron. Ygritte says the First Men who threw up the wall came with iron and fire. The Ironborn seem to have been the only ones with weapon-grade iron, and clearly their culture is heavily intertwined with iron craft. Mithras is right that iron weapons coexisted with bronze ones for a long time, and it takes advanced smelting and forging techniques to make steel or even good iron. The First Men, outside of the IB, did not have this.

The Andals came with steel, not iron. It's weird because sometimes steel and iron are used generically to mean "swords." Steel making is basically very advanced iron making, so they could be considered (at least in medieval terms) to be on a continuum. But it seems clear the Andals actually had steel, with their plate armor and vastly superior sword craft. The Rhoynar may or may not have taught them, but the Rhoynar have been around since before the LN, so they were certainly there to bump up against the Andals. Mithras is right through that the Cymmeri, back in the beginning of Sarnori culture, was among the first to work iron. It definitely seems intentional that TWOAIF gives us multiple candidates for "the first civilization after the LN" and "the first to work iron." It's supposed to be murky.

But as for Yi Ti and Jar Har. Fire and steel could just be an expression, but maybe not. It could mean iron, it could mean steel. Azor Ahai seems to have been making steel, with his heat, hammer, and fold, although that too could be a later addition to the story. I tend to think the only swords than can survive being a Lightbringer must be Valyrian steel or something equally magical. Beric's decent quality steel sword breaks when lit on fire. These ideas suggest Azor and the GEotD may have had steel working capability. It's also possible the Yi Tish rediscovered or preserved some manner of iron working. Or they may have independently invented iron working, as they are very old and fairly isolated from everything west of the Bones.

There's certainly enough to suspect some manner of steel or iron craft among the Yi Tish.

Thanks for working all this out Mithras. I think it's fascinating to work out as much chronology as we can, even if some people do not. ;)

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Now we don't have a specific story about the First Men having such a tradition, though many things are recorded in song. If you haven't figured out by now that the fishwives, wet nurses, fisher folk and singers have more of the truth than the maesters and high lords, you're not paying attention to the book Martin is writing.

Thanks and we cannot emphasize the importance of this quoted notion enough. I will add the unorthodox, even deviant, maesters/septons like Septon Barth to this lot.

I have a golden rule while reading TWOIAF: whenever Yandel dismisses/ridicules a notion for various reasons, I become super careful and see whether that ridiculed notion makes sense or not.

I am not saying that everything Yandel rejected must be true. Most of Mushroom's claims, which Yandel dismisses, are rightly BS. But in other cases, deviant maesters like Theron or Barth generally speak sense. Even what they claim are not the whole truth, they are certainly part of the truth and must be incorporated into the big picture.

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Yes, this seems clear enough to me. In real life, black weapons that drank the souls of those they slew would be rightly regarded as fanciful, or a personification of a real thing (perhaps the first people with black iron weapons were so deadly and effective that the soul drinking sprang up as a personification of their deadliness, for example, perhaps combined with beliefs about what happens to a soul after death). But in ASOIAF, we know there is a ton of magical shit, and more so in the distant past. So there's no reason we shouldn't equally consider the possibility that they DID have soul drinking weapons as the possibility that it is fanciful.



And yes, Martin is honestly a bit heavy handed with the "and this can safely be disregarded" lines. I mean... flashing red light, anyone? ;)



DEFINITELY no dragons or dragon eggs under winterfell. Definitely not. That's just ABSURD.


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Although sometimes, the maesters are wiser than they realize...

We look at mountains and call them eternal, and so they seem … but in the course of time, mountains rise and fall, rivers change their courses, stars fall from the sky, and great cities sink beneath the sea. Even gods die, we think. Everything changes.

ACOK, Bran

Dying gods = falling stars, knowwhaddamean? ;)

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Would be nice if someone coukd clarify on matters like these (GRRM, elio, linda)

There are some more uncertain things from the world book, for example the rule of house teague as river kings would have extended from 5000 bc to 400 bc....

Some clarification would be helpful. Asoiaf is so great, it has to be perfect.

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My completely unsupported hope is that there were some utterly ruthless, genocidal emperors in YiTi's history that they do not want to recognize in modern times. Those guys always make things more interesting but also screw up apologetic timelines. "Why is the tour information blank from 1933-45?"


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  • 2 months later...

Since the Further East emerged from the Long Night and the centuries of chaos that followed, eleven dynasties have held sway over the lands we now call Yi Ti. Some lasted no more than a half century; the longest endured for seven hundred years. Some dynasties gave way to others peacefully, others with blood and steel. On four occasions, the end of a dynasty was followed by a period of anarchy and lawlessness when warlords and petty kings warred with one another for supremacy; the longest of these interregnums lasted more than a century.

 

THE GOD-EMPERORS OF YI TI

To recount even the most important events of this long history would require more words than we have, yet we would be remiss if we did not at least mention a few of the more fabled of the god-emperors of Yi Ti:

HAR LOI, the first of the grey emperors (1), whose throne was said to be a saddle, for he spent his entire reign at war, riding from one battle to another.

CHOQ CHOQ, the humpbacked, fifteenth and last of the indigo emperors (2), who kept a hundred wives and a thousand concubines and sired daughters beyond count but was never able to produce a son.

MENGO QUEN, the Glittering God, third of the jade-green emperors (3), who ruled from a palace where the floors and walls and columns were covered in gold leaf, and all the furnishings were made of gold, even to the chamber pots.

LO THO, called Lo Longspoon and Lo the Terrible, the twenty-second scarlet emperor (4), a reputed sorcerer and cannibal, who is said to have supped upon the living brains of his enemies with a long, pearl-handled spoon, after the tops of their skulls had been removed.

LO DOQ, called Lo Lackwit, the thirty-fourth scarlet emperor, a seeming simpleton cursed with an affliction that made him jerk and stagger when he walked, and drool when he tried to speak, who nonetheless ruled wisely for more than thirty years (though some suggest that the true ruler was his wife, the formidable Empress Bathi Ma Lo).

THE NINE EUNUCHS, the pearl-white emperors (5) who gave Yi Ti 130 years of peace and prosperity. As young men and princes, they lived as other men, taking wives and concubines and siring heirs, but upon their ascent each surrendered his manhood root and stem, so that he might devote himself entirely to the empire.

JAR HAR, and his sons Jar Joq and Jar Han, the sixth, seventh, and eighth of the sea-green emperors (6), under whose rule the empire reached the apex of its power. Jar Har conquered Leng, Jar Joq took Great Morag, Jar Han exacted tribute from Qarth, Old Ghis, Asshai, and other far-flung lands, and traded with Valyria.

CHAI DUQ, the fourth yellow emperor (7), who took to wife a noblewoman of Valyria and kept a dragon at his court.

 

The grey emperors, indigo emperors, and pearl-white emperors ruled from Yin on the shores of the Jade Sea, first and most glorious of the YiTish cities, but the scarlet emperors raised up a new city in the heart of the jungle and named it Si Qo the Glorious (long fallen and overgrown, its glory lives now only in legend), whilst the purple emperors (8) preferred Tiqui, the many-towered city in the western hills, and the maroon emperors (9) kept their martial court in Jinqi, the better to guard the frontiers of the empire against reavers from the Shadow Lands.

 

Today Yin is once more the capital of Yi Ti. There the seventeenth azure emperor (10) Bu Gai sits in splendor in a palace larger than all King’s Landing. Yet far to the east, well beyond the borders of the Golden Empire proper, past the legendary Mountains of the Morn, in the city Carcosa on the Hidden Sea, dwells in exile a sorcerer lord who claims to be the sixty-ninth yellow emperor, from a dynasty fallen for a thousand years.

 

Yandel says that there were 11 dynasties in the long history of Yi Ti and the longest of them lasted for 700 years. We were given the colors of 10 dynasties, which means there is another dynasty not mentioned in the World Book.

 

Jar Han (the eight sea-green emperor) was able to exact tributes from Old Ghis. But we know that Old Ghis was destroyed by Valyria 5000 years ago. So, Jar Han lived more than 5000 years ago. If we take the order in THE GOD-EMPERORS OF YI TI section as chronological, then we have only 4 dynasties (yellow, purple, and maroon, azure) that existed in this period of 5000 years.

 

The problem is that the longest reigning dynasty lasted for 700 years. So, there is no way to fit these 4 dynasties into a period of 5000 years even if we assume the interregnums took place in this era. Even if we include the missing dynasty in this period, it is still too long.

 

So below are some generous assumptions that can be made to see the size of the time gap.

 

Assume that Old Ghis was already failing 50-60 years before the Fifth Ghiscari War (which happened 5000 years ago) and because of this weak state, Jar Han was able to exact tributes from them.

Assume that the sea-green emperors who took the empire to the apex of its power were the longest reigning dynasty (for 700 years).

Assume that the sea-green emperors reigned for no more than 50 years when Jar Han came to power.

So, we can say that the sea-green emperors reigned up to 4350 years before present time.

Then, assume that the longest interregnum (#1) took place which can be taken as 150 years.

So, the missing dynasty started its reign 4200 years ago. Give them a long reign of 680 years. So, their reign must have come to an end 3520 years ago.

Then assume that another long interregnum (#2) of 70 years followed. That makes the yellow emperors starting their reign 3450 years ago.

Assume that the yellow emperors had a long reign of 650 years, which dates their fall to 2800 years ago.

Another interregnum (#3) followed by a long reign of purple emperors brings us to nearly 2100 years ago.

Another interregnum (#4) followed by a long reign of maroon emperors brings us to nearly 1400 years ago.

 

The current dynasty of azure emperors cannot be older than 700 years. So, we need at least two missing dynasties even under such generous assumptions.

 

One solution is that the list given in the section is not chronological so that we could include several dynasties that were mentioned before the sea-green emperors to exist after them. But this would be an inferior choice. What would be the point of not making that list chronological from Yandel's point of view?

 

Another explanation might be that since the capitols of the Golden Empire were moved multiple times and countless cities were built and destroyed (Lomas said that there are at least three ancient cities buried under every YiTish city standing today), there might be “omissions, gaps and contradictions” in the records as Yandel himself noted in the World Book. So, there might be a couple of forgotten dynasties in the last 5000 years. This also fits well with the quote that the yellow emperors came to an end 1000 years ago and before them, there seems to be a huge gap that can be filled with a bunch of unnamed and forgotten dynasties.

 

Or another solution is that Dany was wrong when she thought that Old Ghis was destroyed 5000 years ago.

 

The harpy of Ghis, Dany thought. Old Ghis had fallen five thousand years ago, if she remembered true; its legions shattered by the might of young Valyria, its brick walls pulled down, its streets and buildings turned to ash and cinder by dragonflame, its very fields sown with salt, sulfur, and skulls.

 

This is the only piece of information to date the fall of the Old Ghis. If Dany misremembered, then we can stretch the fall of Old Ghis 1000-2000 years towards the present day. But again, this would be an inferior choice.

I would go with the theory that Dany has her info wrong. For all the reasons in my other post , and some more im putting together. Some interesting points but i def disagree with some of your assumptions on the Empire of Ti-ti, but ill need to collect my info to make a decent argument and im too tired atm haha

 

Oh and the 11 Empires are as listed. Grey, Indigo, Jade Green, Scarlet, Pearl white, Sea Green, Yellow, Purple, Maroon, Azure, and Orange. None are missing ;) You can count it as 10 tho for your math since the Orange empire is brand new and contending with the 69th yellow emperor from which the yellow empire ended 1000 years ago and the 17th azure and current emperor. The Eunuchs only ruled for 130 years . Now if all 10 empires ruled for 700 years then you might be able to reach the commonly excepted date for the Long Night. Except we know that only one lasted 700 years while some (meaning at least two) were no more than 50 years. With the Pearl White only 130 years long. At least 2 in between at around 350 years. plus 4 interim periods, the longest lasting only 100 years. The best you can come up with for them extending the dates is roughly 4000 years, and thats grasping in my opinion. The info and math just doesnt support there empire being 6000 plus years long by a long shot.

 If you concede this shorter time frame, and that Dany's knowledge of the 5th Ghiscari war being wrong, then things make a lil more sense. Also Yandel is not a very reliable, and he even says what they know is by word of mouth from visitors and a few parchments that have managed to escape. Hardly sounding like enough paper that theyd be lucky enough that in that few was a complete list of all emperors for all 10 empires. That and he's a Maester, and even in ASOIAF there are hints about the Maesters twisting history.

 Also, you mention Jar Han exacting tribute from Old Ghis as a sign hes 5000 years old at least. Except it says he also exacted tribute from Qarth, who was by no means around 5000 years ago, at best the Qaathi are 1000 years old but Qarth no more than a couple hundred probably. 

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Also, you mention Jar Han exacting tribute from Old Ghis as a sign hes 5000 years old at least. Except it says he also exacted tribute from Qarth, who was by no means around 5000 years ago, at best the Qaathi are 1000 years old but Qarth no more than a couple hundred probably. 

 

Do you have a quote to back this up? Where does it give the age of Qarth?

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noticed this too upon a reread, cant imagine how or why im seeing people try to dispute the notion empirically, it was pretty obvious without actually going through all the math that there was an issue with the numbers; though im not sure it needs to be solved or is of issue

My general purpose for trying to pin down a rough time frame for the Empire of Yi-ti  is to figure out when roughly the long night happened. Im also tryin to pin down the Andal Invasion. Doing this by collecting all the info for Yi-ti, the nights watch, when the free cities became controlled by Valyria (as many of them are know to have been inhabited by other peoples first like Lorath), the kings beyond the wall and etc. I believe Martin has given enough information to figure most out, just got do some reasoning and a lil speculating.

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Do you have a quote to back this up? Where does it give the age of Qarth?

They dont give a exact date or anything but in AWOIAF in the  section on Qarth and its surrounding areas, they tell you about the Qaathi people being forced down into that area by the Sarnori (tho the cities in between the two are Ghiscari so im still puzzling that out a lil) but that shortly after establishing there settlements that the land began to dry up into a waste land crippling them, then in the century of blood getting wiped out supposedly by the Dothraki ( Tho while Dany is passing through Vaes Tolorro they see bones littering the city which suggest that it had been destroyed more recently than that.).

     So there is a lil speculation goin on on my part, but ive also checked alot of forums to see others opinions on it and seem to agree.

 

     My more wild speculations on Vaes Tolorro tho is that its actually a city that belonged to either the warlocks or the Asshai, but im leaning towards Warlocks. All the buildings in the city are windowless which is similar to both the house of the undying and the windowless houses on warlocks way in Qarth, and all the building in Asshai. They also find stone flagons with handles carved like snakes, which the house of the undying is described as looking like a coiled stone snake. In a near by city, either Vaes Orvik or Vaes Shirosi one of her Dothraki scouts finds a iron bracelet with an uncut fire opal (Illyrio uses one to signify his following of the Red Faith at Dany's wedding, while also where colors of fire.). Alot of it seems like Asshai to me but the thing that make me wonder is just that the current people of asshai arent the original occupants and didnt build Asshai or anything that we know of. Also its just a lil far east fot them tho they could have been expanding at one point. Im leaning towards the Warlocks and guessing that theyre just close with Asshai. 

   In Vaes Dotharak, Dany happens to notice some statues of Asshai which is odd since the Dothraki cant cross the bones due to the Patrimony of Hyrkoon and dont build boats. They take statues from conquered people and have only conquered lands within the old Silver sea/now Dothraki Sea. Oddly too, the Dothraki kicked out the Ibbish/giant colonies encroaching on the Kingdom of the Ifequeron (who sound like children of the forest). Didnt mess with the lil forest people tho. The lil people have a hive mind and are connected to Bloodraven/Targaryen. Makes me wonder

 

 Anyways im rambling now. Hope that answered your question and a lil extra. Still getting all my facts together so i can post it all as one concise go through.   

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1) Yi Ti has one of the earliest written cultures and one of the first to rebuild after the Long Night.

 

2) We are given 700 years for the longest dynasty and 100 years for the longest interregnum. So, if we use the longest possible dates for the 10 post-long-night dynasties we get 7950 years, and 1000 years of interregnum. That gives 7950 years. Of course, it might have taken a thousand years to rebuild after the long night - so 9000 is plausible.

 

3) On the other hand, if we were to average the two dynastic lengths which we are given (rather than multiply by the longest) it comes out to about 4000 years (including 250 years of interregnums).

 

4) So it is plausible that the Yi Tish records could put the Long Night at as recently as 5000 years ago. Which seems a bit recent. It would require bunching up the fall of old Ghis, the last migration of the Andals, and Nymeria's ten thousand into a space of less than two thousand years, and have the Valyrians exaggerating their age.

 

 

So, I guess my point is that margins for error are huge: Even with our best information we have trouble figuring out dates, Dany could have similar trouble (especially given how she lost her family's knowledge of dragon husbandry).

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My general purpose for trying to pin down a rough time frame for the Empire of Yi-ti  is to figure out when roughly the long night happened. Im also tryin to pin down the Andal Invasion. Doing this by collecting all the info for Yi-ti, the nights watch, when the free cities became controlled by Valyria (as many of them are know to have been inhabited by other peoples first like Lorath), the kings beyond the wall and etc. I believe Martin has given enough information to figure most out, just got do some reasoning and a lil speculating.

Why? The years between any and all events that far off in the history don't particularly matter as long as you know the chronology of them.  You aren't ever going to "pin down the andal invasion" as it was just a progressive migration of people from Andalos that gradually made footholds in certain lands and eventually successfully "conquered" nearly all of Westeros, not under one banner, but as a people from a shared homeland that seperatly carved out kingdoms with no commonalities other than their religion as the result of increasing numbers and superior weaponry; and they did so over centuies seemingly, the world book made that much clear enough.  Yi-ti is just some place on the far side of the world that has little to no significance to the story past its predecessor The Golden Empire of the Dawn and its influence in the triggering of the Long Night and the line of "god kings" (glorified early first men with superior genetics, longer lives) that ruled there before that.  Long Night - 8000 years ago, Nights Watch made in its wake.  Free cities all at different times and obviously "many" if not all of them were conquered not colonized empty land

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Why? The years between any and all events that far off in the history don't particularly matter as long as you know the chronology of them.  You aren't ever going to "pin down the andal invasion" as it was just a progressive migration of people from Andalos that gradually made footholds in certain lands and eventually successfully "conquered" nearly all of Westeros, not under one banner, but as a people from a shared homeland that seperatly carved out kingdoms with no commonalities other than their religion as the result of increasing numbers and superior weaponry; and they did so over centuies seemingly, the world book made that much clear enough.  Yi-ti is just some place on the far side of the world that has little to no significance to the story past its predecessor The Golden Empire of the Dawn and its influence in the triggering of the Long Night and the line of "god kings" (glorified early first men with superior genetics, longer lives) that ruled there before that.  Long Night - 8000 years ago, Nights Watch made in its wake.  Free cities all at different times and obviously "many" if not all of them were conquered not colonized empty land

But you dont know the chronology of them, thats the point. The info given is contradicts. Yes actually you can pin down the info as im currently doing and no it wasnt that long ago. There are more than enough stories to prove the times wrong. This is one such example i gave someone else.

  Just wanted to say that actually the first Arryn they list is actually a story of contradiction as Artys from the andal invasion is also connected to a Hero from the Age of Heros called the Winged Knight. Contradicting Arty's date of rule. Most maesters count them as seperate and associated to gain favor with the Arryn's. If you actually research the story and all the people connected with the tales. It makes more sense that Artys is the Winged Knight and that this was the start of the major Andal migration. Arrtys is called the first king of the Mountain and Vale but his only tale mentions his defeating the first men in the Vale, nothing about how he conquered the mountain peoples. The Winged Knight (Knight implying Andal) defeated the Griffin King upon the Giants Lance (mountains).  Griffin king is also referred to as the last of the mountain kings (Likely Robar II Royce, the last Bronze King). So if you combined the two stories of the Andal warlord Artys and the Andal Winged Knight, then you get a more complete story of how the first Andal king in the Vale came to be. Which is also an example of how your Alyssa Arryn has date confusion. The confusion is because the people seem to think the Age of Heroes was along time ago, before the Andal invasion. If you actually read all the accounts it tells of the the Age of heros connecting to the beginning of the Andal Invasion, and that the Main Andal invasion was likely no more than 2000 years ago. 

   As ive proven in another discussion, the Golden Empire is no more than 2000 years about. Argue all you want but its logic. There were 10 empires, the longest (just one) ruling for 700 years. The shortest no more than 50 years. 4 interim periods, the longest lasting 100 years. To make your "8000" year mark, youd have to give each empire a reign of 700 years and each interim 250. Info about the nights watch and there oldest castle, the Nightfort dont give any info to suggest 8000 years either.

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1) Yi Ti has one of the earliest written cultures and one of the first to rebuild after the Long Night.

 

2) We are given 700 years for the longest dynasty and 100 years for the longest interregnum. So, if we use the longest possible dates for the 10 post-long-night dynasties we get 7950 years, and 1000 years of interregnum. That gives 7950 years. Of course, it might have taken a thousand years to rebuild after the long night - so 9000 is plausible.

 

3) On the other hand, if we were to average the two dynastic lengths which we are given (rather than multiply by the longest) it comes out to about 4000 years (including 250 years of interregnums).

 

4) So it is plausible that the Yi Tish records could put the Long Night at as recently as 5000 years ago. Which seems a bit recent. It would require bunching up the fall of old Ghis, the last migration of the Andals, and Nymeria's ten thousand into a space of less than two thousand years, and have the Valyrians exaggerating their age.

 

 

So, I guess my point is that margins for error are huge: Even with our best information we have trouble figuring out dates, Dany could have similar trouble (especially given how she lost her family's knowledge of dragon husbandry).

 the Golden Empire is no more than 2000 years about. Argue all you want but its logic. There were 10 empires, the longest (just one) ruling for 700 years. The shortest no more than 50 years. 4 interim periods, the longest lasting 100 years. To make your "8000" year mark, youd have to give each empire a reign of 700 years and each interim 250.  Thats being generous and false as all were not 700 years. Only one, and one was 50, and one was 130. As it says some lasted no longer than half a century you can assume at least 2 only lasted 50 years. So with those four empires your only at 880 years. If you just take tidbits of info then yes you can claim with confidence that. if you say two are at the median length of rule at 375, your now at 6 empires and only 1600 years about. The longest interim period was 100 years so were at 1730. Even if your generous and give the remaining four empires and 3 interim's a total of 1000 years your only at 2700 years ago for the long night. With a period of darkness between the Long Night and the start of the Golden Empire of Yi-ti being overly generous at 1000 years we get the longest ago the Long Night was likely, which is close to 4000 years ago about.  The Long Night being 4000 years ago and the Main Andal Invasion that swept in at the Vale, the The RIverlands and on to the Reach and the Rock was 2000 years ago, with Andal adventures such as Symeon Star Eyes and such coming in at random periods before. The First men didnt take thousands of years to populate westeros either as Maesters have debated, since stories seem to indicate them spreading in the matter of a few generations. Which doesnt make sense if they're only pouring in from the arm of Dorne, but does make sense if they also came across the arm from Braavos to the fingers in ancient days, as in TWOIAF there is one or two accounts that the Narrow sea was once an inland fresh water sea. Meaning that it was closed on all sides making it possible for them to pour through in different waves north and south. Those many raging storms that destroyed Durran God grief's castles were likely the very storms/activity that destroyed the arms, which makes a lil more sense as the children dont seem to be powerful enough to smash the arm of Dorne. But the Deepones (Durran married daughter of sea god and goddess of the wind) would have that power.

 

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But you dont know the chronology of them, thats the point. The info given is contradicts. Yes actually you can pin down the info as im currently doing and no it wasnt that long ago. There are more than enough stories to prove the times wrong. This is one such example i gave someone else.

  Just wanted to say that actually the first Arryn they list is actually a story of contradiction as Artys from the andal invasion is also connected to a Hero from the Age of Heros called the Winged Knight. Contradicting Arty's date of rule. Most maesters count them as seperate and associated to gain favor with the Arryn's. If you actually research the story and all the people connected with the tales. It makes more sense that Artys is the Winged Knight and that this was the start of the major Andal migration. Arrtys is called the first king of the Mountain and Vale but his only tale mentions his defeating the first men in the Vale, nothing about how he conquered the mountain peoples. The Winged Knight (Knight implying Andal) defeated the Griffin King upon the Giants Lance (mountains).  Griffin king is also referred to as the last of the mountain kings (Likely Robar II Royce, the last Bronze King). So if you combined the two stories of the Andal warlord Artys and the Andal Winged Knight, then you get a more complete story of how the first Andal king in the Vale came to be. Which is also an example of how your Alyssa Arryn has date confusion. The confusion is because the people seem to think the Age of Heroes was along time ago, before the Andal invasion. If you actually read all the accounts it tells of the the Age of heros connecting to the beginning of the Andal Invasion, and that the Main Andal invasion was likely no more than 2000 years ago. 

   As ive proven in another discussion, the Golden Empire is no more than 2000 years about. Argue all you want but its logic. There were 10 empires, the longest (just one) ruling for 700 years. The shortest no more than 50 years. 4 interim periods, the longest lasting 100 years. To make your "8000" year mark, youd have to give each empire a reign of 700 years and each interim 250. Info about the nights watch and there oldest castle, the Nightfort dont give any info to suggest 8000 years either.

Except I do know the chronology of them, as I just listed in what your responding too.  The only thing you've done is add a whole Vale story to say your unsure about, a story which frankly doesnt matter.  Like if your just going to keep adding another event then sure, the chronlogy of the things actually being discussed a few posts ago is as it is, and they were clearly more important events than anything thats happened in the Vale

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No, all youve done is list a bunch of shaky dates listed by the Maesters. The same Maester who blew the time lines up to begin with. In one instant as they dont understand how the first men populated all of westeros in a few short generations. Reason being because they see it as a linear path from Dorne all the way north, but it wasnt. There is evidence that the fingers used to connect to to essos, and that would make it possible for the first men to invade at multiple points. The Maester not understanding this decide that the stories are off and inflate things to fit their logic. The evidence is all there, you obviously just choose to disregard all those other tidbits to align with your theory. Which is all fine, but i just choose not to disregard given information as i see that its backed in certain accounts across different families and area's. The account of Artys Arryn and the WInged Knight were just one such account that i could easilly explain. There are plenty of others. Now people quibbling about the importance of this stuff is debatable as ASOIAF is not complete yet. With Characters like Little Finger, Varys, the Maesters and such, you go on believing things at face value. Im all for questioning, even if its a lil tin foil. I just dont understand the logic of not questioning, especially on this forum.

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 the Golden Empire is no more than 2000 years about. Argue all you want but its logic. There were 10 empires, the longest (just one) ruling for 700 years. The shortest no more than 50 years. 4 interim periods, the longest lasting 100 years. To make your "8000" year mark, youd have to give each empire a reign of 700 years and each interim 250.  Thats being generous and false as all were not 700 years. Only one, and one was 50, and one was 130. As it says some lasted no longer than half a century you can assume at least 2 only lasted 50 years. So with those four empires your only at 880 years. If you just take tidbits of info then yes you can claim with confidence that. if you say two are at the median length of rule at 375, your now at 6 empires and only 1600 years about. The longest interim period was 100 years so were at 1730. Even if your generous and give the remaining four empires and 3 interim's a total of 1000 years your only at 2700 years ago for the long night. With a period of darkness between the Long Night and the start of the Golden Empire of Yi-ti being overly generous at 1000 years we get the longest ago the Long Night was likely, which is close to 4000 years ago about.  The Long Night being 4000 years ago and the Main Andal Invasion that swept in at the Vale, the The RIverlands and on to the Reach and the Rock was 2000 years ago, with Andal adventures such as Symeon Star Eyes and such coming in at random periods before. The First men didnt take thousands of years to populate westeros either as Maesters have debated, since stories seem to indicate them spreading in the matter of a few generations. Which doesnt make sense if they're only pouring in from the arm of Dorne, but does make sense if they also came across the arm from Braavos to the fingers in ancient days, as in TWOIAF there is one or two accounts that the Narrow sea was once an inland fresh water sea. Meaning that it was closed on all sides making it possible for them to pour through in different waves north and south. Those many raging storms that destroyed Durran God grief's castles were likely the very storms/activity that destroyed the arms, which makes a lil more sense as the children dont seem to be powerful enough to smash the arm of Dorne. But the Deepones (Durran married daughter of sea god and goddess of the wind) would have that power.

 

 

Right, so a plausible estimate for the rise of Yi Ti is: 930 year for the four known dynasties (assuming the two half-century ones are a full 50 years). If we average those we get 232 year per dynasty. Assuming 10 dynasties of 232.5 years with 9 interregnums averaging 50 years each, we get: [i]2750 years.[/i]

 

So, from the YiTish records (which the world book says are some of the best maintained) we get a lower estimate of about 3000 years. This assumes that the YiTi haven't exaggerated the length of any of their dynasties and only the pre-long night dynasties are exaggerated (other wise the rise of Yi Ti would be even more recent).

 

Even if it took 2000 years to rebuild after the Long Night, that still puts the Long Night as much less than 6000 years old!

 

So what does a 4000-6000 year time frame for the long night do to the rest of the timeline?

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For anyone on this thread thats interested and believes in the 2000 year mark roughly for the Andal Invasion. Here is an extended theory on the shorter time line.

         

        THE FIRST FIRST MEN MIGRATION across the arm of Vale (as mentioned at least in the Stormlands section of AWOIAF, mentioning the Narrow sea having possibly been an inland fresh water sea) under the leadership of The First King/Barrow Kings and war with the Children of the Forest. The Northern lands unbroken at this time stretched south to the vale where they had entered and the Riverlands. Possibly even the Westerlands and the Casterlys and the Hightowers of Old Town. The Iron Islanders who had no boats at the time did not find Islands, but lands connected to the main land till the breaking had separated them from the main lands and left nothing but a few islands. Making the North truly larger than the other realms combined, tho later only a third their size. 

 

        THE PACT UPON THE GODS EYE & ORDER OF THE GREEN MEN & GARTH THE GREEN. Garth i believe was born from the union of Men and the children as per the pacts many agreements. Garth having green skin and horns just like that of the Green men of the Gods Eye. 

 

        THE SECOND FIRST MEN MIGRATION & THE AGE OF HEROS. across the arm of Dorne led by other men who found Garth the green already in the lands, and the Hightower already standing. (I dont know what caused they're flight but it may be Old Ghis or Valyria) Garth breeds with many first men women sowing the seeds for many of the houses of the Reach and 2 outside of the Reach and starting the Age of Heros. The Starks of Winterfell and the Lannisters of Casterly Rock.  (House Crane is said to be able to warg into Cranes so this is likely why house Stark has Warging abilities). House Stark forms from Brandon the Bloody Blade (who killed many Children of the Forest and Giants) who is possibly father to Brandon the Builder, that or they are one and the same. Lann (fathered upon Florys the Fox or Rowan Gold Tree by an Andal Adventurer) goes east to take Castemere from the Casterlys. House Dayne (with some sort of connection to Valyria) follows a falling star to where it crashes to build starfall and eventually a Sword as strong and sharp as valyrian steel. Mean while in the east, the Bloodstone Emperor (Red) betrays his sister and begins worshiping a fallen stone. Taking a tiger woman to wife and enslaving his people. His father was the Opal Emperor while his betrayed sister was the Amethyst Empress (Amethyst is purple while Opal is multi colored but Black Opal looks the colors of the Night Sky). Durran Gods Grief builds Storms End with the help of Brandon the Builder possibly, that or children? 7th time his castle survives the wrath of the gods (he wed the daughter of the Sea god and the goddess of the Wind Elenei. Sounds kinda like the Drowned god and the Storm god. Also, 7 storms maybe what inspired the Andal Faith and may be the storms that broke the arm of Dorne and such.) Time of Adara and the Ice Dragon. Her Uncles armies attired in the Green of Garth in the South while the Army in the North attired in Black and Orange, possibly Asshai or Valyria, tho possibly the Dustins as the sigil has a Black crown against Black.

 

        BREAKING OF THE ARM OF DORNE & THE VALE, FLOODING OF THE NECK & THE LONG NIGHT. The Long Night begins after the Breaking of Westeros. Azor Ahai makes the sword of heros after tempering it through his wifes heart. The Last Hero travels in search of the children with the help of 12 companions, a dog, a horse, and a dragon steel sword. He finds the children it is believed for after the Men of the Nights Watch band together against the Others (likely this means simply that the Order of the Nights Watch is formed). Brandon the Builder builds the Wall with the aid of the Children of the Forest. The 13th Lord Commander becomes the Nights King and serves for 13 years with his Corpse bride after seeing her North of the Wall. They enslave the men of the watch and are later stopped by Brandon the Breaker and Joramun, King beyond the Wall. The Night's King supposedly named Brandon and brother to Brandon the Breaker. His Corpse Bride supposedly a daughter to the Dustin King, descendants of the Barrow Kings though forced to take a new name due to curse upon the Tomb of The Barrow King. Likely placed there by the Starks or Children of the Forest. Curse said to turn any pretender to the title of First King turn corpse like in appearance. (Brandon the Bloody Blade, The Dayne who made Dawn, Azor Ahai, The Last Hero, Brandon the Builder, and the Night's King allllll likely the same guy. This due to the fact that him and Brandon the Breaker are only half brothers. As is our current 3 heads of the Dragon. Tyrion= son of Aerys and Joanna, Jon= Rhaegar and Lyanna, and Dany= Rhaegar and Ashara. Ill get back to that.

 

       ANDAL INVASION & END OF THE AGE OF HEROS. About 2300 to 2000 years ago after the fall out of the Long Night, Ser Artys Arryn/ the Winged Night lands in the Vale fleeing the onslaught of the Valyrian expansion. Displaces the Royces in the Vale and the Andals begin to spread. Theon Stark fights the Andals after the Boltons Bend a Knee and join sides. Theon first King to switch from the King of Winter to King in the North. Jon Stark builds Wolfs Den after to secure the North. Many houses in the South fall to the Andals whose invasion stopped about 1700 years ago after the scouring of Lorath. With the Andals come the Faith of the Seven and at some unknown time the Maesters out of Old Town, also comes the Dragon slayers of the Andal Knights, with possible aid of the Septons or Maesters. Maesters accused in current stories of killing the Targaryen Dragons during the Dance. Valyria turns her attention to the Rhoynar and by 1000 years ago the Rhoynish invasion of Dorne takes place.

 

       Much of the history from here connects to the well known and documented history of current events. 

 

       Now a note on the 3 heads of the dragon theory. The prince that was promised would be born from the lines of Aerys and Rhaella Targaryen. The prophecy doesnt say from the union of the two, it simply says the lines of the two siblings. Aerys has Tyrion with Joanna which is a well known theory and makes sense with dating and logic. Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna was a lil harder for people to fully take tho it was the most popular theory. For a reason. It makes the most sense given allll the information given. Jon being born around the sack of K.L. rules out any other father as Ned is too Honorable and his brother died too early the year before for it to be him. (Tho i did like that theory). Dany was the trickier person to figure out. Aerys and Rhaella supposedly have Rheagar and then its yearsss before they have another attempt. Rhaegar is born the same year that Rhaella wed Aerys and its quite possible Rhaegar isnt Aery's kid despite looking like the perfect Targaryen. Aerys only has Tyrion and Viserys, a deformed kid in which he mistakenly mocks Tywin for. ;) Rhaegar is the son of Rhaella and Ser Bonifer Hasty. Rhaella and Aerys attempt to have kids numerous times who all are stillborn and die shortly after. Viserys is the only son born of their union and he's sickly and weak. Rhaella's last attempt results in a still birth that kills her and the incident is played off as Ashara who secretly has Rhaegars other kid. Rhaegar had been wooing Ashara at the Tourney of Harrenhal but ended up falling for Lyanna instead due to meddling of Howland after visiting the Gods Eye and Garths fellow Green Men. Ashara is dishonored by these events, tho Barastan cant do anything because its his future king, that or Barastan didnt know who had upset and dishonored her.

 

       I have a couple other theories, namely about house Martell and what their play for power is backed behind.

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