Sly Wren Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 In my mind cotf are more like Neanderthals - an ancient race of hominids going extinct, as a new species takes over their habitat. Workable--especially with the references/hints at the races interbreeding. I'd still assert, though, that the Children seem less human than even Neanderthals--less homo sapiens, that is--a more fundamental difference in ethics, in biology, and of course in magics. Maybe a more extreme and mystical version of Neanderthals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 25, 2015 Author Share Posted May 25, 2015 Never seen it, so I can't say. Imo, the current wildling situation is far more analogous with the forced relocation and settlement idea. In my mind cotf are more like Neanderthals - an ancient race of hominids going extinct, as a new species takes over their habitat. Philistine! I suppose that means you've never read it either - or the other Leatherstocking tales. The point is that we have a native people under extreme pressure - all the way to the point of extinction. Some of them, including the eponymous Last of the Mohicans, co-operate with and help the invaders despite knowing their days are numbered, but most fight back - savagely - and are certainly not going into the darkness quietly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Philistine! I suppose that means you've never read it either - or the other Leatherstocking tales. The point is that we have a native people under extreme pressure - all the way to the point of extinction. Some of them, including the eponymous Last of the Mohicans, co-operate with and help the invaders despite knowing their days are numbered, but most fight back - savagely - and are certainly not going into the darkness quietly. And to beat the fairy metaphor straight into the ground, the Native American comparison has the built in mysticism--so fundamentally different from Judeo-Christian religion/mythologies that it's too terrifyingly other--has to become a boogie man. Like Nan's stories--strong outline of the history with overlay of human ethics--the Others and/or Children will eat your children and sleep with your daughters, etc. Very similar to what Christianity did with medieval folklore about fairies (IE: The folk tales about "don't go with the fairies to fairyland or your immortal soul will be burned away. Then, when you die, no soul to go to heaven"--and no, I didn't make this up--real "warning" from old stories.) They take the basic facts, weave them into their own ethics, and voila--fairytales (in the least Disney sense possible). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Workable--especially with the references/hints at the races interbreeding. I'd still assert, though, that the Children seem less human than even Neanderthals--less homo sapiens, that is--a more fundamental difference in ethics, in biology, and of course in magics. Maybe a more extreme and mystical version of Neanderthals? True. Perhaps they would be more like homo habilis, or even Australopithecus? Australopithecus recreations look a lot like my mental image of Leaf. Philistine! I suppose that means you've never read it either - or the other Leatherstocking tales. The point is that we have a native people under extreme pressure - all the way to the point of extinction. Some of them, including the eponymous Last of the Mohicans, co-operate with and help the invaders despite knowing their days are numbered, but most fight back - savagely - and are certainly not going into the darkness quietly. Being called Philistine! in Heresy should come with a special medal of honor. Or dunce cap. LOL Again BC, I understand the point you are making. It wouls make COMPLETE sense if the cotf fought back against FM after the Pact. But, as written, we have zero such tales, and ample accounts of the contrary. All I'm doing is pointing out the record very strongly suggests collaboration, while at the same time, does not show any accounts of enmity. Leaf seems to demonstrate a very apathetic view of their fate. And seems quite ready to go into the darkness quietly. So, we have that, and nothing in the text to suggest the sort of revolts you are describing. I think it's understandable if I'm hesitant to jump on your bandwagon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 While i think the COTF have no agency in themselves the gist of BC take is accurate. I believe there is a subtly to the text that is being missed here especially as it relates to our own history as GRRM is drawng upon with the Native American. What is written per the History of man and what is behind the history: There was a mutual pact after they fought to a draw And this "mutual" pact had the COTF withdraw oh sorry "agree" to give up most of their lands to the invaders.Futhermore give Tribute oh sorry "an annual gift" out of the kindness of their heart ..........Yeah right Voice Of The First Men, are you serious? What is written and behind The COTF helped men defeat the Others....Did anybody remember them being on the field side by side with Obsidian no? Anybody? Yet one man went in the deadlands and barren lands to find them and it took him years to find them like if they didn't know he was looking for them. But when he was just about to get killed they happen to show up then...Ok (snigger) When the shit hit the fan the COTF didn't run to the aid of man,boy that is some cooperation strange allies. When the Andals tooled up and ran through First men and Children according to the main text the Andals finished them(cotf) off so where was the COTF and FM alliance to fight off these invaders? Voice are you serious? You missed the connotative hints of what really happened.They weren't allies the cotf were forced to give up most of their land and when the Others ehem (winter greenseers) showed them how it was done.One man said you know what i need to look for the cats who can do some thing about it .Implying that they could but chose not to intervene. Whatever he offer he made caused them to call off the dogs...my guess he became the next one to wear that mantle.The armies of the dead did not flee they left because they were ordered to do so by him TLH. Children and men had a mutual alliance my behind.Men made the children yield and the GSs made men bend the knew back. Come on now seriously Voice? :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Interesting article... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 25, 2015 Author Share Posted May 25, 2015 Being called Philistine! in Heresy should come with a special medal of honor. Or dunce cap. LOL In a thread where we take pride in erudition I'd say its very much the latter :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 25, 2015 Author Share Posted May 25, 2015 Interesting article... Interesting, but I'd question its relevance. Over the years all manner of parallels quite literally from around the globe have been offered, but in thinking about the possible influences on GRRM's work I'm very much inclined to avoid casting the net too far, and as discussed on the previous page even the references to Celtic folklore may be largely derived from modern interpretations such as Frazer's Golden Bough rather than the originals. The Native American parallels are also there [including the shamanistic stuff and the human sacrifice] but I really would hesitate to look at Indonesia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 While i think the COTF have no agency in themselves the gist of BC take is accurate. I believe there is a subtly to the text that is being missed here especially as it relates to our own history as GRRM is drawng upon with the Native American. Not really sure what you mean by "no agency in themselves" but I think BC is saying the cotf likely had some resentment towards Men, which sounds plausible. What is written per the History of man and what is behind the history: There was a mutual pact after they fought to a draw And this "mutual" pact had the COTF withdraw oh sorry "agree" to give up most of their lands to the invaders.Futhermore give Tribute oh sorry "an annual gift" out of the kindness of their heart ..........Yeah right Voice Of The First Men, are you serious? Are you arguing with a fictional version of me again? I've never made these claims. What is written and behind The COTF helped men defeat the Others....Did anybody remember them being on the field side by side with Obsidian no? Anybody? Yet one man went in the deadlands and barren lands to find them and it took him years to find them like if they didn't know he was looking for them. But when he was just about to get killed they happen to show up then...Ok (snigger) When the shit hit the fan the COTF didn't run to the aid of man,boy that is some cooperation strange allies. When the Andals tooled up and ran through First men and Children according to the main text the Andals finished them(cotf) off so where was the COTF and FM alliance to fight off these invaders? Credit goes to Matthew for digging these up: Tales from the World Book of non-hostile human/CotF relations. Full credit to "asearchoficeandfire" website, without which this would have been a real bother:"The archives of the Citadel contain a letter from Maester Aemon, sent in the early years of the reign of Aegon V, which reports on an account from a ranger named Redwyn, written in the days of King Dorren Stark. It recounts a journey to Lorn Point and the Frozen Shore, in which it is claimed that the ranger and his companions fought giants and traded with the children of the forest. Aemon's letter claimed that he had found many such accounts in his examinations of the archives of the Watch at Castle Black, and considered them credible."---"When Erreg's warriors sought to cut down the trees, the First Men are said to have fought beside the children, but the might of the Andals was too great. Though the children and First Men made a valiant effort to defend their holy grove, all were slain. The tale-tellers now claim that the ghosts of the children still haunt the hill by night. To this day, rivermen shun the place."---"Chronicles found in the archives of the Night's Watch at the Nightfort (before it was abandoned) speak of the war for Sea Dragon Point, wherein the Starks brought down the Warg King and his inhuman allies, the children of the forest. "---"Last (and some might say the least) of the peoples of the North are the swamp-dwellers of the Neck, known as crannogmen for the floating islands on which they raise their halls and hovels. A small, sly people (some say they are small in stature because they intermarried with the children of the forest, but more likely it results from inadequate nourishment, for grains do not flourish amidst the fens and swamps and salt marshes of the Neck, and the crannogmen subsist largely upon a diet of fish, frogs, and lizards), they are quite secretive, preferring to keep to themselves."---"The first Ser Artys Arryn supposedly rode upon a huge falcon (possibly a distorted memory of dragonriders seen from afar, Archmaester Perestan suggests). Armies of eagles fought at his command. To win the Vale, he flew to the top of the Giant's Lance and slew the Griffin King. He counted giants and merlings amongst his friends, and wed a woman of the children of the forest, though she died giving birth to his son."---"They observed the fighting in the Vale, the stormlands, and the riverlands from afar, taking note of all that happened. Wiser perhaps than their counterparts from other regions, they did not make the error of allying with the Andals against local rivals. Gwayne IV (the Gods-fearing) sent his warriors searching out the children of the forest, in the hopes that the greenseers and their magic could halt the invaders."---"We can state with certainty, however, that men have lived at the mouth of the Honeywine since the Dawn Age. The oldest runic records confirm this, as do certain fragmentary accounts that have come down to us from maesters who lived amongst the children of the forest."---"But King Baldric I Durrandon (the Cunning) proved expert at setting them one against the other, and King Durran XXI took the unprecedented step of seeking out the remaining children of the forest in the caves and hollow hills where they had taken refuge and making common cause with them against the men from beyond the sea. In the battles fought at Black Bog, in the Misty Wood, and beneath the Howling Hill (the precise location of which has sadly been lost), this Weirwood Alliance dealt the Andals a series of stinging defeats and checked the decline of the Storm Kings for a time. " Again, I'm not stating an opinion. I'm pointing out that per the text, after the Pact, we have tales of collaboration rather than enmity. If you don't like that, or think it's too unrealistic, that's fine. Honestly, I don't care, it's fantasy. If it bothers you so much, you could always email GRRM with ideas how he can write a more realistic version of colonization. Voice are you serious? You missed the connotative hints of what really happened.They weren't allies the cotf were forced to give up most of their land and when the Others ehem (winter greenseers) showed them how it was done. "connotative hints" LOL As far as the loss of land, the cotf seemed to care more about deforestation, and protecting their Gods, than land ownership. Regardless, the children of the forest fought as fiercely as the First Men to defend their lives. Inexorably, the war ground on across generations, until at last the children understood that they could not win. The First Men, perhaps tired of war, also wished to see an end to the fighting. The wisest of both races prevailed, and the chief heroes and rulers of both sides met upon the isle in the Gods Eye to form the Pact. Giving up all the lands of Westeros save for the deep forests, the children won from the First Men the promise that they would no longer cut down the weirwoods. All the weirwoods of the isle on which the Pact was forged were then carved with faces so that the gods could witness the Pact, and the order of green men was made afterward to tend to the weirwoods and protect the isle. One man said you know what i need to look for the cats who can do some thing about it .Implying that they could but chose not to intervene. Whatever he offer he made caused them to call off the dogs...my guess he became the next one to wear that mantle.The armies of the dead did not flee they left because they were ordered to do so by him TLH. What? I'm sorry, but in no way does this constitute a coherent thought. I'm reminded of BC's post:In a thread where we take pride in erudition I'd say its very much the latter :cool4: While at first I LOL'd at this, now I'm wondering how this can be true, with comments like: One man said you know what i need to look for the cats who can do some thing about it .Implying that they could but chose not to intervene. Whatever he offer he made caused them to call off the dogs...my guess he became the next one to wear that mantle.The armies of the dead did not flee they left because they were ordered to do so by him TLH. Children and men had a mutual alliance my behind.Men made the children yield and the GSs made men bend the knew back. Come on now seriously Voice? :cool4: Hey, it ain't my book series. If you don't like it, take it up with the author..."The archives of the Citadel contain a letter from Maester Aemon, sent in the early years of the reign of Aegon V, which reports on an account from a ranger named Redwyn, written in the days of King Dorren Stark. It recounts a journey to Lorn Point and the Frozen Shore, in which it is claimed that the ranger and his companions fought giants and traded with the children of the forest. Aemon's letter claimed that he had found many such accounts in his examinations of the archives of the Watch at Castle Black, and considered them credible."---"When Erreg's warriors sought to cut down the trees, the First Men are said to have fought beside the children, but the might of the Andals was too great. Though the children and First Men made a valiant effort to defend their holy grove, all were slain. The tale-tellers now claim that the ghosts of the children still haunt the hill by night. To this day, rivermen shun the place."---"Chronicles found in the archives of the Night's Watch at the Nightfort (before it was abandoned) speak of the war for Sea Dragon Point, wherein the Starks brought down the Warg King and his inhuman allies, the children of the forest. "---"Last (and some might say the least) of the peoples of the North are the swamp-dwellers of the Neck, known as crannogmen for the floating islands on which they raise their halls and hovels. A small, sly people (some say they are small in stature because they intermarried with the children of the forest, but more likely it results from inadequate nourishment, for grains do not flourish amidst the fens and swamps and salt marshes of the Neck, and the crannogmen subsist largely upon a diet of fish, frogs, and lizards), they are quite secretive, preferring to keep to themselves."---"The first Ser Artys Arryn supposedly rode upon a huge falcon (possibly a distorted memory of dragonriders seen from afar, Archmaester Perestan suggests). Armies of eagles fought at his command. To win the Vale, he flew to the top of the Giant's Lance and slew the Griffin King. He counted giants and merlings amongst his friends, and wed a woman of the children of the forest, though she died giving birth to his son."---"They observed the fighting in the Vale, the stormlands, and the riverlands from afar, taking note of all that happened. Wiser perhaps than their counterparts from other regions, they did not make the error of allying with the Andals against local rivals. Gwayne IV (the Gods-fearing) sent his warriors searching out the children of the forest, in the hopes that the greenseers and their magic could halt the invaders."---"We can state with certainty, however, that men have lived at the mouth of the Honeywine since the Dawn Age. The oldest runic records confirm this, as do certain fragmentary accounts that have come down to us from maesters who lived amongst the children of the forest."---"But King Baldric I Durrandon (the Cunning) proved expert at setting them one against the other, and King Durran XXI took the unprecedented step of seeking out the remaining children of the forest in the caves and hollow hills where they had taken refuge and making common cause with them against the men from beyond the sea. In the battles fought at Black Bog, in the Misty Wood, and beneath the Howling Hill (the precise location of which has sadly been lost), this Weirwood Alliance dealt the Andals a series of stinging defeats and checked the decline of the Storm Kings for a time. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiraeth Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 While i think the COTF have no agency in themselves the gist of BC take is accurate. I believe there is a subtly to the text that is being missed here especially as it relates to our own history as GRRM is drawng upon with the Native American. What is written per the History of man and what is behind the history: There was a mutual pact after they fought to a draw And this "mutual" pact had the COTF withdraw oh sorry "agree" to give up most of their lands to the invaders. Futhermore give Tribute oh sorry "an annual gift" out of the kindness of their heart ..........Yeah right Voice Of The First Men, are you serious? What is written and behind The COTF helped men defeat the Others....Did anybody remember them being on the field side by side with Obsidian no? Anybody? Yet one man went in the deadlands and barren lands to find them and it took him years to find them like if they didn't know he was looking for them. But when he was just about to get killed they happen to show up then...Ok (snigger) When the shit hit the fan the COTF didn't run to the aid of man,boy that is some cooperation strange allies. When the Andals tooled up and ran through First men and Children according to the main text the Andals finished them(cotf) off so where was the COTF and FM alliance to fight off these invaders? Voice are you serious? You missed the connotative hints of what really happened.They weren't allies the cotf were forced to give up most of their land and when the Others ehem (winter greenseers) showed them how it was done.One man said you know what i need to look for the cats who can do some thing about it .Implying that they could but chose not to intervene. Whatever he offer he made caused them to call off the dogs...my guess he became the next one to wear that mantle.The armies of the dead did not flee they left because they were ordered to do so by him TLH. Children and men had a mutual alliance my behind.Men made the children yield and the GSs made men bend the knew back. Come on now seriously Voice? :cool4: But there was the Battle for the Dawn - I am not sure the armies of the dead just fled because they were called off, and I was under the impression that AA used his sword on someone, and that obsidian was used on the Others after the advice of the Children. Alliances can be different, they can be a one-off event or last for a long-time, although I wouldn't call the Pact an alliance - I don't think the Pact covered the Andal invasion, but I think I remember that the FM also had their share of fighting the invaders. The Andal invasion was a land-grab event, not an invasion of supernatural creatures bent on annihilating all life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Interesting article... Interesting. One issue with the Neanderthal or Australopithicus metaphor is that I can't think of an instance where humans refer to the Children as primitive--primitive weapons, yes. But the magical aspect of them seems to still garner respect in those who speak of them. Which might simply be due to the POVs we have speaking of them--if discussing them, more likely to be interested, etc. (If I'm misremembering, feel free to throw things at me--metaphorically) Whereas in the Neanderthal metaphor--at present we build models of "primitive men" and put them in museums; we talk about their technology as though it's rather amazing that peoples with such odd skulls could do such things; actors portraying them on the History channel grunt a lot. The Children seem more fairy-ish or elvish. Strangely beautiful, clearly powerful with special knowledge, but "other" and not fully knowable. Thus, dangerous to humans, or at least to the human worldview. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiraeth Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Sorry, triple post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiraeth Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 sorry, double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 In a thread where we take pride in erudition I'd say its very much the latter :cool4: Already quoted this, but I really like it :) I don't think anyone I know would believe me if I told them someone accused me of not being as well-read on Native Americans as I should be LOL. Interesting, but I'd question its relevance. Over the years all manner of parallels quite literally from around the globe have been offered, but in thinking about the possible influences on GRRM's work I'm very much inclined to avoid casting the net too far, and as discussed on the previous page even the references to Celtic folklore may be largely derived from modern interpretations such as Frazer's Golden Bough rather than the originals. The Native American parallels are also there [including the shamanistic stuff and the human sacrifice] but I really would hesitate to look at Indonesia. Didn't mean to imply this was a source of inspiration for the author. Just found it interesting. I had no idea some of these homids lived as recently as 10k years ago. Quite fascinating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Interesting. One issue with the Neanderthal or Australopithicus metaphor is that I can't think of an instance where humans refer to the Children as primitive--primitive weapons, yes. But the magical aspect of them seems to still garner respect in those who speak of them. Which might simply be due to the POVs we have speaking of them--if discussing them, more likely to be interested, etc. (If I'm misremembering, feel free to throw things at me--metaphorically) Whereas in the Neanderthal metaphor--at present we build models of "primitive men" and put them in museums; we talk about their technology as though it's rather amazing that peoples with such odd skulls could do such things; actors portraying them on the History channel grunt a lot. The Children seem more fairy-ish or elvish. Strangely beautiful, clearly powerful with special knowledge, but "other" and not fully knowable. Thus, dangerous to humans, or at least to the human worldview. Sure I hear ya. Just trying to imagine what interactions might have been like between different "human" races, and this popped up. Quite fascinating that there are bones that seem to support the oral history of their existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 But there was the Battle for the Dawn - I am not sure the armies of the dead just fled because they were called off, and I was under the impression that AA used his sword on someone, and that obsidian was used on the Others after the advice of the Children. Alliances can be different, they can be a one-off event or last for a long-time, although I wouldn't call the Pact an alliance - I don't think the Pact covered the Andal invasion, but I think I remember that the FM also had their share of fighting the invaders. The Andal invasion was a land-grab event, not an invasion of supernatural creatures bent on annihilating all life. Yes you are correct there was a "battle for the Dawn." Hears the problem with this and we've talked about it a few times.The battle may not have gone the way we think. 1. We have some of the most mundane stories happen in this story so far going back thousands of years and they left a foot print. No matter how many years passes by we will hear some iteration of Sam the Other killer or that guy who killed a fleeing Giant at the Battle of Castle Black. We get nothing from the Battle of the Dawn. No person who distinquished themselves,no name etched on a stone some where nothing though. The Night's Watch rode out in 100 ft of snow in an environment that probably made the Fist look like child's play and pushed back the armies of the dead who fled back to the lands they came." To paraphrase Sam,it seems to me that the wights aren't afraid of anything. So i can't see wights turning tale and running from anyone. The cotf gave no aid to men at all when it came to the Other they gave one man help and waited until he was almost dead to give their aid.That's not cooperation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Sure I hear ya. Just trying to imagine what interactions might have been like between different "human" races, and this popped up. Quite fascinating that there are bones that seem to support the oral history of their existence. Yes. Absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Not really sure what you mean by "no agency in themselves" but I think BC is saying the cotf likely had some resentment towards Men, which sounds plausible. Are you arguing with a fictional version of me again? I've never made these claims. Credit goes to Matthew for digging these up: Again, I'm not stating an opinion. I'm pointing out that per the text, after the Pact, we have tales of collaboration rather than enmity. If you don't like that, or think it's too unrealistic, that's fine. Honestly, I don't care, it's fantasy. If it bothers you so much, you could always email GRRM with ideas how he can write a more realistic version of colonization. "connotative hints" LOL As far as the loss of land, the cotf seemed to care more about deforestation, and protecting their Gods, than land ownership. Regardless, the children of the forest fought as fiercely as the First Men to defend their lives. Inexorably, the war ground on across generations, until at last the children understood that they could not win. The First Men, perhaps tired of war, also wished to see an end to the fighting. The wisest of both races prevailed, and the chief heroes and rulers of both sides met upon the isle in the Gods Eye to form the Pact. Giving up all the lands of Westeros save for the deep forests, the children won from the First Men the promise that they would no longer cut down the weirwoods. All the weirwoods of the isle on which the Pact was forged were then carved with faces so that the gods could witness the Pact, and the order of green men was made afterward to tend to the weirwoods and protect the isle. What? I'm sorry, but in no way does this constitute a coherent thought. I'm reminded of BC's post: While at first I LOL'd at this, now I'm wondering how this can be true, with comments like: One man said you know what i need to look for the cats who can do some thing about it .Implying that they could but chose not to intervene. Whatever he offer he made caused them to call off the dogs...my guess he became the next one to wear that mantle.The armies of the dead did not flee they left because they were ordered to do so by him TLH. Hey, it ain't my book series. If you don't like it, take it up with the author..."The archives of the Citadel contain a letter from Maester Aemon, sent in the early years of the reign of Aegon V, which reports on an account from a ranger named Redwyn, written in the days of King Dorren Stark. It recounts a journey to Lorn Point and the Frozen Shore, in which it is claimed that the ranger and his companions fought giants and traded with the children of the forest. Aemon's letter claimed that he had found many such accounts in his examinations of the archives of the Watch at Castle Black, and considered them credible."---"When Erreg's warriors sought to cut down the trees, the First Men are said to have fought beside the children, but the might of the Andals was too great. Though the children and First Men made a valiant effort to defend their holy grove, all were slain. The tale-tellers now claim that the ghosts of the children still haunt the hill by night. To this day, rivermen shun the place."---"Chronicles found in the archives of the Night's Watch at the Nightfort (before it was abandoned) speak of the war for Sea Dragon Point, wherein the Starks brought down the Warg King and his inhuman allies, the children of the forest. "---"Last (and some might say the least) of the peoples of the North are the swamp-dwellers of the Neck, known as crannogmen for the floating islands on which they raise their halls and hovels. A small, sly people (some say they are small in stature because they intermarried with the children of the forest, but more likely it results from inadequate nourishment, for grains do not flourish amidst the fens and swamps and salt marshes of the Neck, and the crannogmen subsist largely upon a diet of fish, frogs, and lizards), they are quite secretive, preferring to keep to themselves."---"The first Ser Artys Arryn supposedly rode upon a huge falcon (possibly a distorted memory of dragonriders seen from afar, Archmaester Perestan suggests). Armies of eagles fought at his command. To win the Vale, he flew to the top of the Giant's Lance and slew the Griffin King. He counted giants and merlings amongst his friends, and wed a woman of the children of the forest, though she died giving birth to his son."---"They observed the fighting in the Vale, the stormlands, and the riverlands from afar, taking note of all that happened. Wiser perhaps than their counterparts from other regions, they did not make the error of allying with the Andals against local rivals. Gwayne IV (the Gods-fearing) sent his warriors searching out the children of the forest, in the hopes that the greenseers and their magic could halt the invaders."---"We can state with certainty, however, that men have lived at the mouth of the Honeywine since the Dawn Age. The oldest runic records confirm this, as do certain fragmentary accounts that have come down to us from maesters who lived amongst the children of the forest."---"But King Baldric I Durrandon (the Cunning) proved expert at setting them one against the other, and King Durran XXI took the unprecedented step of seeking out the remaining children of the forest in the caves and hollow hills where they had taken refuge and making common cause with them against the men from beyond the sea. In the battles fought at Black Bog, in the Misty Wood, and beneath the Howling Hill (the precise location of which has sadly been lost), this Weirwood Alliance dealt the Andals a series of stinging defeats and checked the decline of the Storm Kings for a time. "1. I'm not agreeing with BC stance on the children in themselves. I'm saying based on the main text and the WB they were taking orders from their leaders...The Greenseers. 2. Was speaking to you..lol wasn't saying you did only stating you are not looking at the connotative clues in the text. 3. It is true we are led to believe by the "history" that the COTF aided mankind.No they didn't they helped one man TLH and what ever the consequences of that help took is open for speculation. 4. To reiterate something i've said before we cannot treat the COTF as a homogenous group. You have brought up cases of factions of people who chose to study the children (Maesters), some groups of men that were their enemy,others who were their allies,others who tried to find them and didn't. Its not the samething certainly mot on the scale we spoke of and "when" it happened. Which is when the Others came there was NOOOOOO help to mankind on a whole.It was one man who went looking for them and it took years to find them.Which only came when he was about to die or he thought he was about to die. This is a matter of sense now.Given the powers of the Greenseers,that they have eyes every where . Voice of the first men. Do you really think logically now that it needed to take years for him to find them???? I don't think so.Again subtly of the text what's behind the words and the situation. I wash my hands of this madness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aDanceWithFlagons Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 The extremely rare split double post. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 25, 2015 Author Share Posted May 25, 2015 OK, time for a break. Heresy 168 is up and running and open for business, so I'll see you all over there in the morning. In the meantime remember our local house rules and wind things down a bit - on both sides. Shorter posts would also help both for we readers and in making your point. Good night all and sweet dreams. :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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