[Book Spoilers] EP506 Discussion v. 2

[starklover]

:bowdown:

yeah i know

[Lovely Lyanna]

I'm very sorry you're being forced to read the forum as people react to an episode. That must be horrifying for you.

If you can't deal with valid criticism of the show, I suggest sticking to the Positive Nitpicking thread.

They were not speaking of valid criticism. They were speaking of the stupid comments that people feel the need to post while the show is on. Perhaps a another thread should be opened for people wanting to make what they believe is a witty remark during the show. I do not consider someone saying "Oh NO" a valid discussion. They are just posting during the show and the comments are just silly and suck up a lot of room before you get to any real discussion.

[dannyk65]

They were not speaking of valid criticism. They were speaking of the stupid comments that people feel the need to post while the show is on. Perhaps a another thread should be opened for people wanting to make what they believe is a witty remark during the show. I do not consider someone saying "Oh NO" a valid discussion. They are just posting during the show and the comments are just silly and suck up a lot of room before you get to any real discussion.

Some people enjoy that (not me, but what do I care?) so who's to tell them they can't have an interactive chat during the episode? I know I wouldn't want to read those kinda comments, so I don't.

[Lovely Lyanna]

Some people enjoy that (not me, but what do I care?) so who's to tell them they can't have an interactive chat during the episode? I know I wouldn't want to read those kinda comments, so I don't.

I know some people like doing that. That is why I suggested a separate thread for it.

[Dolorous Gabe]

They were not speaking of valid criticism. They were speaking of the stupid comments that people feel the need to post while the show is on. Perhaps a another thread should be opened for people wanting to make what they believe is a witty remark during the show. I do not consider someone saying "Oh NO" a valid discussion. They are just posting during the show and the comments are just silly and suck up a lot of room before you get to any real discussion.

Below you will find the two segments I was responding to in separate sentences. I stand by my response. Although I admit I was being slightly facetious.

"it's not cool to be forced to sift through baseless complaints made on the fly as people rush to be the first to make comments during real-time airings of the show"

"Your complaints are ruining the show's image"

Edited May 22, 2015 by Dolorous Gabe

[Lord Damian]

They fridged SANSA for THEON.

Jeyne Poole's fridging in the books is diminished by the fact she's a minor character and it's offset by other great storylines for female characters (including Sansa).

They fridged SANSA for THEON.

I want to set something on fire. Maybe Theon.

I think I get what your saying. It is known while writting season 2 back in 2010/2011, when Sophie was 13/14 years old, they had ADWD material and when it was released they knew that she would take the place of Jeyne Poole in filming 2014 when she was 18. They had a plan all along. They followed her storyline to the "T" into the vale and then in a surprising move, even to the actess and related actors themselves, moved her into this storyline that they had "fridged" for her to redeem Theon for 4 years. Yeah, Theon standing there, made me as angry as Ramsay. I think that is why Alfe Allen said Ramsay is probably the worst person in Westeros, followed by Theon/Reek. Ramsay for the Rape and Theon/Reek for standing there and not doing anything to stop it.

[XxLittleBirdxX]

What I'm wondering is, if Sansa DOES become the Wardeness of the North, what then? I mean I know that Baelish has this whole power play going on, and wants to continue to rise for himself, but just assuming that Sansa is the Wardeness, what about whenever Bran and Rickon make a re-appearance? Does she then automatically step down to Bran? Or does she hold that position? We know that after Robb's Death (I'm assuming due to Stannis' offer to Jon that the show didn't follow through with Robb making Jon his official heir), so Bran is next in line..then Rickon and then Sansa - so she would have to then step down, right? Or no?

[dannyk65]

I know some people like doing that. That is why I suggested a separate thread for it.

Oh, I guess I misunderstood. My bad!

[Elaena Targaryen]

I think I get what your saying. It is known while writting season 2 back in 2010/2011, when Sophie was 13/14 years old, they had ADWD material and when it was released they knew that she would take the place of Jeyne Poole in filming 2014 when she was 18. They had a plan all along. They followed her storyline to the "T" into the vale and then in a surprising move, even to the actess and related actors themselves, moved her into this storyline that they had "fridged" for her to redeem Theon for 4 years. Yeah, Theon standing there, made me as angry as Ramsay. I think that is why Alfe Allen said Ramsay is probably the worst person in Westeros, followed by Theon/Reek. Ramsay for the Rape and Theon/Reek for standing there and not doing anything to stop it.

This https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DInYaHVSLr8 is what I believe greensleeves meant by Sansa being "fridged" for Theon

[greensleeves]

I think I get what your saying. It is known while writting season 2 back in 2010/2011, when Sophie was 13/14 years old, they had ADWD material and when it was released they knew that she would take the place of Jeyne Poole in filming 2014 when she was 18. They had a plan all along. They followed her storyline to the "T" into the vale and then in a surprising move, even to the actess and related actors themselves, moved her into this storyline that they had "fridged" for her to redeem Theon for 4 years. Yeah, Theon standing there, made me as angry as Ramsay. I think that is why Alfe Allen said Ramsay is probably the worst person in Westeros, followed by Theon/Reek. Ramsay for the Rape and Theon/Reek for standing there and not doing anything to stop it.

I was actually using 'fridged' in reference to the 'Women in Refrigerators' trope (where female characters are killed/raped to motivate male characters). Though you have a point too.

In ADWD one of Jeyne's main purposes was to motivate Theon. Now that job is given to Sansa. It's basically saying it's okay to trash Sansa's storyline to make Theon's slightly better.

ETA: thanks for the link Elaena Targaryen

Edited May 22, 2015 by greensleeves

[Lord Damian]

Thanks for clarifying me, I need that from time to time.

[Lord Damian]

What I'm wondering is, if Sansa DOES become the Wardeness of the North, what then? I mean I know that Baelish has this whole power play going on, and wants to continue to rise for himself, but just assuming that Sansa is the Wardeness, what about whenever Bran and Rickon make a re-appearance? Does she then automatically step down to Bran? Or does she hold that position? We know that after Robb's Death (I'm assuming due to Stannis' offer to Jon that the show didn't follow through with Robb making Jon his official heir), so Bran is next in line..then Rickon and then Sansa - so she would have to then step down, right? Or no?

you know, this is where Sansa may decide to go rogue and not team with anyone but her family. She cannot risk LF knowing about her brothers, epecially Rickon as he is the one who will be the King/Lord of Winterfell. There is foreshadowing regarding Sansa and Rickon back when Myrcella left for Dorne, the day of the riot. Tommen was crying when Myrcella left and Joffrey teased him. Sansa told Joffrey that Rickon was crying the day she left for King's Landing. Joffrey said "well, is your brother a Prince?" or something like that and she replied "no". Well in fact. Rickon may be a King before the end.

[greensleeves]

Thanks for clarifying me, I need that from time to time.

Sorry about that. I was more interested in ranting than being clear.

[Lord Damian]

Sorry about that. I was more interested in ranting than being clear.

no appologies necessary.

[TheKitttenGuard]

I was actually using 'fridged' in reference to the 'Women in Refrigerators' trope (where female characters are killed/raped to motivate male characters). Though you have a point too.

In ADWD one of Jeyne's main purposes was to motivate Theon. Now that job is given to Sansa. It's basically saying it's okay to trash Sansa's storyline to make Theon's slightly better.

ETA: thanks for the link Elaena Targaryen

Why is "Fridiged" alright for liteature but not for television?

How are Tysha and Jeyne Poole not "Fridiged" characters?

Edited May 22, 2015 by TheKitttenGuard

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

They fridged SANSA for THEON.

Jeyne Poole's fridging in the books is diminished by the fact she's a minor character and it's offset by other great storylines for female characters (including Sansa).

They fridged SANSA for THEON.

I want to set something on fire. Maybe Theon.

So, you write a storyline that includes a primary character getting raped and the entire internet splits in half with accusations of mysogony and lazy writing. Rape a secondary or tertiary character, and you can get a partial pass so long as you write "great storylines for other female characters"?

I'm not buying this. I'm also not buying "fridging Sansa for Theon". Not you or any other viewer know how this plot will progress until the episodes air, then we can throw around accusations of "fridging".

I was actually using 'fridged' in reference to the 'Women in Refrigerators' trope (where female characters are killed/raped to motivate male characters). Though you have a point too.

In ADWD one of Jeyne's main purposes was to motivate Theon. Now that job is given to Sansa. It's basically saying it's okay to trash Sansa's storyline to make Theon's slightly better.

ETA: thanks for the link Elaena Targaryen

This has been repeated time and again and I have to ask, is this even true? Outside of Ramsey's sickening honeymoon drama, how many times do Theon's thoughts go back to Jeyne Poole? Isn't it the spear wives that are there to kidnap fArya? Isn't it their actions that are the primary cause of him and fArya escaping? Isn't it Rowan who, in exchange for his help, offers to end Reek's pain by offering him a quick death as Theon? Doesn't Reek (still terrified of Ramsey) have to be literally dragged along when this plan is set in motion?

He wanders around Winterfell, interacts with many of the characters there, has to deal with accusations of "turn cloak" and "kinslayer". He has to deal with the memories of what he did and the pain he caused (including Jeyne's misery). He has to deal with confusion that comes from the fact that some people are calling him "Theon" and not "Reek". And, most importantly, he has his interactions with the spear wives. It's the Spearwives that rescue Theon and fArya,

Edited May 22, 2015 by Deadlines? What Deadlines?

[roxWolfox]

^

Great points. I loathed the Theon storyline so I didn't pay much attention to his meandering around Winterfell, but I do remember quite clearly that he was forced to rescue Jeyne by the spearwives.

Thank you for the reminder! :cheers:

[Woman of War]

Okay, here's my other post about Dorne :drool:

I can't believe I'm writing in defense of this mess, but here goes:

I think that both show watchers and book watchers need to have more of an appreciation for how even a basic local television show is produced. The amount of collaboration, coordination, and precise timing of marketing and post-production promotion is key to generating the millions of viewers that HBO gets every week for GoT. Having worked in the field, I can tell you that it ain't no picnic.

GoT got millions of dollars for additional budget of the show, we know that. But all we have seen of Dorne is a few rolling hills and drab scenery. Then we get punk'd reading about how they had enough money to make Areo's sword really intricate and they made a bunch of realistic face masks. Also, Dorne was filmed in Spain......

oh, please don't bash Spain, they are the most enthusiastic fans there in Europe. And I have been to Cordoba, we can be so lucky to have that most beautiful set, thank you to the Spanish responsibles.

This can only mean that Dorne, though neglected, is important to the overall storyline and MUST be included. So if that means bad acting, horrible casting, and wacky hi jinx with Jaime and bronn, then so be it. The ends will justify the means.

I can only hope that you are right. But compared to what they did to Ellaria those identical triplets of cliché badasses and their wooden acting are a minor problem.

I loved Ellaria in the books as one of those brilliantly characterized women, the voice of reason. Predicting how wrong all those dreams of revenge and counter-revenge are and how horribly they will turn out to end. (If Revenge is the motive that drives Sansa it is therefore only logical that it had to go very wrong for her, here the show message may be consistent)

But they have destroyed Ellaria as Martin's voice in the show - so far, maybe they have to come back to reasonable Ellaria after she has learned the hard way. I was so happy seeing Indira Varma as Ellaria, i hope they can correct that error in characterization. And that is a huge disappointment to me, compared to what they did with Sansa's story, since with Ellaria the show silenced (so far) Martin's own voice .

The whole story is about how the Seven Kingdoms are falling and heading into chaos. Would you rather Cersei and others just casually mention that Dorne is going to shit too for whatever reason? No, I don't think we have time to read snarky complaints how D&D are stupid for not including the lush and beautiful Water Gardens because they "hate" the books.

Instead of criticizing work that takes years of planning just to get started, how about you compliment them for sacrificing their pride and allowing the show to go through a slight bump in plot, continuity, and pacing so they can focus their attention on making Sansa's very necessary (see a previous post in this thread I made explaining why) "rape" as tasteful as possible.

"necessary" may not be the right choice of words though, maybe "inevitable" within plot logic.

Please, everyone. Your complaints are ruining the show's image and it's not cool to be forced to sift through baseless complaints made on the fly as people rush to be the first to make comments during real-time airings of the show: "Oh shit, is Tommen just gonna sit there!?!?! Where dry army at?!"

Here I really agree with you and, being an artist myself, I'm personally angry about the disrespect towards D&D and the gigantic artistic achievement this show is despite all issues one may have.

People react like disappointed lovers: Over the top hatred instead of critical evaluation.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Woman of War

[Mladen]

Here I really agree with you and, being an artist myself, I'm personally angry about the disrespect towards D&D and the gigantic artistic achievement this show is despite all issues one may have.

People react like disappointed lovers: Over the top hatred instead of critical evaluation.

Well, speaking for myself, I can't blame anyone for raising their voice against the sexist writing of the series. I won't resort to name calling, but I have to acknowledge that something is rotten on the set of "Game of Thrones". My respect for them inevitably deteriorated after the last episode, because they were adapting a beautiful, humanist, feminist story and they made it into a flashy, sexist porn.

There are too much of critical evaluation here. Even if some people actually went over the top, one can't sensibly negate what a gigantic mess this season is. And now, we are not speaking about one character or one storyline. We are speaking about the season in general.

[ladyinblack]

What? Didnt you read my excellent comments on the previous page? You cannot still endorse this post after reading my reply, can you?

Sorry@Ajax

Still your

Think D&D could have done a much much better job with the wealth of material at hand