GRRM will read a Winds chapter at Conquest KC next weekend

[aryagonnakill#2]

As to the question about Victarion chapters, I think the confusion comes from the fact that he read the same chapter twice, but the first time he did not read the whole thing, and the 2nd time it included more.

[bemused]

Unless, of course, the baby had already been taken away to a trusted wet nurse (Wylla?)

I've stated for a long time that the kid wasn't at ToJ.

However, in the text we have "...They found me..." + The fact that the attendee basically asked GRRM to confirm R+L : of course GRRM had to be careful with his words, so he repeated what we already know - Ned and Howland are the only ones leaving ToJ, the showdown alive. Nothing major here.

I was more excited at HarperVoyagerUK's giddy tweets than at this snippet of information. :)

It occurs to me that there may be subtle hints given elsewhere (you may have relied on them in forming your opinion).. In the case of little "Monster" (whichever baby he is) , he's fed on goat's milk between the departure of Gilly and the arrival of the Flint and Norrey wet nurses. It wasn't necessary to make a point of goat's milk there, GRRM could have written in a wet nurse from Molestown, or among the captured wildlings.(Flint and Norrey could still have showed up for Alys' wedding without wet nurses, and so on) ...We know there are goat tracks in Dorne ;), so there must be goats...

So, I agree this is probably not anything new..there are no doubt many possible explanations for that "They" (e.g., one of the KG was still alive, but mortally wounded...etc., etc.). We just have to wait for George to reveal what the correct one is.

[Moondancer]

It occurs to me that there may be subtle hints given elsewhere (you may have relied on them in forming your opinion).. In the case of little "Monster" (whichever baby he is) , he's fed on goat's milk between the departure of Gilly and the arrival of the Flint and Norrey wet nurses. It wasn't necessary to make a point of goat's milk there, GRRM could have written in a wet nurse from Molestown, or among the captured wildlings.(Flint and Norrey could still have showed up for Alys' wedding without wet nurses, and so on) ...We know there are goat tracks in Dorne ;), so there must be goats...

So, I agree this is probably not anything new..there are no doubt many possible explanations for that "They" (e.g., one of the KG was still alive, but mortally wounded...etc., etc.). We just have to wait for George to reveal what the correct one is.

I remember that GRRM inquired a fan about the best possible type of milk for a newborn - it's in ssm somewhere. Had the idea already been present, he would not have asked for new information later on, I think. (This was in time leading up to books 4&5.)

Once it dawned on me (and really this just goes to show how ridiculously silly a fan can be) that wet nurse =/= someone who has medical knowledge, I made up my mind easily as to who "they" could be.

[bravosi42]

AFFC/ADWD's shortcomings aren't his editor's fault. The editing process goes like this:

Editor: "I think this is redundant. You should scrap it."

GRRM: "NO."

:)

[bemused]

I remember that GRRM inquired a fan about the best possible type of milk for a newborn - it's in ssm somewhere. Had the idea already been present, he would not have asked for new information later on, I think. (This was in time leading up to books 4&5.)

Once it dawned on me (and really this just goes to show how ridiculously silly a fan can be) that wet nurse =/= someone who has medical knowledge, I made up my mind easily as to who "they" could be.

Look, I don't say the baby must have been fed goat's milk and taken away to Starfall... but it is a possibility.

I don't know the context of the question you're talking about (or even what the question was for that matter). But if you're telling me that GRRM would not know (at that time) that the best milk for a newborn is human breast milk .. but that goat's milk would be a reasonable substitute ... I don't believe it. That's not even in the same ballpark as him corresponding with a fan who had lost the use of his legs or regretting writing actions for Tyrion that would be difficult for a dwarf ..before he'd spoken to one.

The information is very readily available. Most adult women would know, including those in GRRM's immediate circle. He wouldn't need to ask a fan.. it sounds to me like one of those occasions when he answered a question with a question.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Look, I don't say the baby must have been fed goat's milk and taken away to Starfall... but it is a possibility.

I don't know the context of the question you're talking about (or even what the question was for that matter). But if you're telling me that GRRM would not know (at that time) that the best milk for a newborn is human breast milk .. but that goat's milk would be a reasonable substitute ... I don't believe it. That's not even in the same ballpark as him corresponding with a fan who had lost the use of his legs or regretting writing actions for Tyrion that would be difficult for a dwarf ..before he'd spoken to one.

The information is very readily available. Most adult women would know, including those in GRRM's immediate circle. He wouldn't need to ask a fan.. it sounds to me like one of those occasions when he answered a question with a question.

I'll quote the whole conversation for context but the relevant part is bolded.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/P30/

Correspondence with Fans

June 03, 2003

Concerning Wildling Women

I'm sorry to bother you again, but one thing struck me as off, when I read about Mance Rayder's wife, Dalla, preparing to give birth. I know that you haven't asked, but in case there are other births in your books...

Laboring and birthing in bed is something of a modern, western thing. As a woman who has given birth three times, twice unmedicated and once in my own home, I can tell you that unmedicated women in labor are powerful, not passive! They walk, they sway and dance and move. They moan, howl, rock, pace, squat. They give birth squatting, or on hands and knees, and are quite capable of catching their baby in their own hands. Check out Sheila Kitzinger's book Rediscovering Birth. It explains some of the history and anthropolgy of birth in different cultures.

Fierce warrior women would not take birth lying down! They would be active, strong, and show how powerful they are while bringing forth new life.

Well, point taken. I'll take a look at that book if it turns out that I need to describe another birth... especially if it's from the viewpoint of one of POV characters.

However, in my own defense, I should note that Dalla was not a "warrior woman" per se. She was from a warrior culture, yes; one that gave women the right, but not the obligation, to be fighters. Ygritte was a warrior woman, as was (most conspicuously) the fearsome Harma Dogshead. Dalla and Val were not.

Also, though I don't go into details, something was obviously amiss during Dalla's labor, since it killed her. Childbirth isn't quite the killer in Westeros that it was in medieval Europe in the real world, since Westeros has the maesters, who are a considerable improvement over medieval barber/surgeons... but the levels of mortality for both infant and mother would still be frighteningly high by modern standards. And the wildlings don't have maesters. Nor do they have any handy healing magics, such as we see in many other fantasy epics. Dalla did not even have a midwife at the crucial moment. Presumably the midwife was scared off by the big battle going on all around them as the birth was happening. Dalla had only her sister Val. All that being said, if I do depict another birth, I promise to consider all of this more thoroughly beforehand.

I love your books, and I would be glad to answer any questions you might have about birth or breastfeeding!

I'll take you up on that... although this question may be outside your area of expertise. In a medieval setting like mine, if neither the mother nor a wet nurse is available to feed an infant, what sort of milk would be best for the child? Cow's milk? Goat milk? Mare's milk? Could anything be added to it to make it more nourishing, and a better substitute for human breast milk? At what age can solid food be added... and what sort of solid food should it be, in a world before Gerber's? I know honey can kill infants, but I don't know what's good for them. Porridge? Mashed turnips? Stewed something-or-other? Stewed fruit sounds as though it might be an idea, but they don't have a lot of fresh fruit on the Wall right now, with winter almost upon them.

Any info you can provide would be appreciated.

[chris999]

He doesn't really show any event twice from a different POV..

Of course he does.

The Red wedding -Catlyn and Arya/Sandor

Purple Wedding -Tyrion/ Sansa

[Black Crow]

Of course he does.

The Red wedding -Catlyn and Arya/Sandor

Purple Wedding -Tyrion/ Sansa

Another quite striking example is the conversation between Jon and Sam about the nature of the Others, in which we get one side of the conversation in AFFC and the other side of the same conversation in ADwD, which makes me think there's something significant in the conversation which we're missing.

[Garlan the Gallant]

Another quite striking example is the conversation between Jon and Sam about the nature of the Others, in which we get one side of the conversation in AFFC and the other side of the same conversation in ADwD, which makes me think there's something significant in the conversation which we're missing.

Not sure that it was so important, but it did serve as a good device to determine the timeline between both books.

[bemused]

Elaena Targaryen

Thanks for providing the conversation re; breast milk substitutes.. I would have thought the correspondence would be redundant .. but I'm happy to stand corrected. :)

However, it doesn't really change the point I was making.. and it's worth noting that by the time GRRM is writing ADWD , goat's milk is being put forth as a substitute for the little Monster.

If, (and it's definitely still an if for me) he has it in mind that baby Jon was removed from the tower ( or baby and mother, for that matter), what he was fed is not the kind of minor detail Geotge would have needed to have worked out as early as writing AGoT.

It's not something I've been puzzling over obsessively, like some other topics ;), but I've noticed a number of posters in the last few years being hung up with "How did Jon survive the trip north to WF, if Wylla didn't come with them ?" , and so on. Since there are multiple ways this could be answered, I always thought they were getting needlessly bogged down.

So the same thing applies here... I'm sure George must have had the major points worked out before he wrote in that mysterious "they". Heaven knows he's had ample time to work out the fine details, whatever they turn out to be.

[Lady Winter Rose]

It's not something I've been puzzling over obsessively, like some other topics ;), but I've noticed a number of posters in the last few years being hung up with "How did Jon survive the trip north to WF, if Wylla didn't come with them ?" , and so on. Since there are multiple ways this could be answered, I always thought they were getting needlessly bogged down.

Because she had come with Jon.

Cat said Jon and his wet nurse were already at the Winterfell when she and baby Robb first come to the castle. It's her second chapter. That must be Wylla or some other wet nurse.

[Lady Winter Rose]

*Corrected!

[Talking Hodor]

so is it confirmed that it was the Alayne chapter?

Would make sense. Rub it in double D's faces that Sansa is actually relatively safe and unharmed in the original version.

...for now. GRRM did mention that there's a controversial Sansa chapter in existence, and Alayne was not controversial. Harry the Hasshole put out a pretty rapey vibe in that chapter as well.

[Lord Freypie]

It's Ran (Elio) who mentionned the controversial chapter "for a segment of the fanbase" and then said it was the one we got (still don't understand why it was supposed to be controversial even for a segment, that said).

[Moondancer]

It's Ran (Elio) who mentionned the controversial chapter "for a segment of the fanbase" and then said it was the one we got (still don't understand why it was supposed to be controversial even for a segment, that said).

Sansa's sexual awakening, I believe. They didn't have Mercy's chapter at that point for comparison.

[Moondancer]

...for now. 1)GRRM did mention that there's a controversial Sansa chapter in existence, and Alayne was not controversial. 2)Harry the Hasshole put out a pretty rapey vibe in that chapter as well.

No and NO.