Why did Rhaegar give the garland to Lyanna? A Harrenhal discussion...

[Lady Blizzardborn]

From Barristan's POV: "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna..." He said he was fond of Elia. You got those two mixed up in the OP.

I agree that it's not remotely necessary for the QoLaB thing to have anything to do with wanting a third child.

What I've never really understood is why Brandon is so very upset about it. The QoLaB thing is meant to be for the most beautiful woman there. It's not insulting to Lyanna to be considered the most beautiful woman present (hence Robert not having a problem with it). It IS insulting to Elia, and everyone would realize that--thus the smiles dying. So what's the deal with the Young Wolf here?

It's interesting that we don't get the reactions of Rickard, Aerys, Elia, or Lyanna herself.

[Arrow of the Morning]

Well, probably Rhaegar gave the crown of roses to Lyanna because knew that she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree and thought she was worthy. But may be he did not fell in love with Lyanna in Harrenhal. He could been impressed by Lyanna, with her beauty and, above all, her attitude. Lyanna probably thought Rhaegar attractive, he was the crown prince, very handsome, talented musician and very good in the main sport of Westeros. May be they got in love with time, eve after her flight/rescue/whatever.

Aegon was born after the Tourney of Harrenhal, so Elia could be in the beginning of the pregnancy and Rhaegar decided to have a child with other woman after he was born.

[SolomonBlack]

Ha ha, I like that. It seems we have a similar agenda, hum, perspective on things.

While I don't dismiss the possibility of love eventually happening (the series is dark enough as it is), I think that neither the garland incident nor Lyanna's abduction had anything to do with love. This is the fool's tale that was told (in different fashions) by both rebels and loyalists, and it's almost logical that neither version is actually true.

Dismissing love (unless it turns out Robert was right) undermines the most important thematic elements Rhaegar and Lyanna bring to the table. Namely the deconstruction and horrible price paid for acting on your heart flying in the face of chivalric romance the series apes and which can't really be matched by sneaky political sneakiness whatever its purpose or motivation.

Oh and no explanation works better because Rhaegar crowning Lyanna is a fundamentally stupid move for any motivation. Offending let see three great houses in one fell swoop, as the heir to the realm uh uh nope that's dumb any way you look at it and Rhaegar is not supposed to be an idiot or a fool. You need something irrationally motivating here and even anger doesn't quite match a gesture like this.

That thought had also occurred to me. This is where Yandel's (or Pycelle's, or the Citadel's) bias for the Lannisters could prove important. Yandel writes at length about how Aerys slighted Tywin on numerous occasions, yet totally absolves him of any scheming or wrongdoing.

But the tournament of Harrenhal was made possible by... Gold. Lots of gold. Anyone should have at least mentioned Tywin as a possible suspect. He had the means and the motive, he was known to prefer Rhaegar over Aerys. Also, Tywin's absence at Harrenhal is somehow conspicuous for me.

The question here would be whether Tywin and Rhaegar acted together on this, but the involvement of a kingsguard (Oswell Whent) seems to suggest they did: Rhaegar gave the order to Whent, Tywin provided the gold.

I even considered the possibility that the garland-incident was a message for Tywin (I was thinking of him when writing about people "not even at the tournament"), but couldn't figure out what kind of message it sent exactly (Contact the Starks? Lyanna is key, protect her?).

Problem is the in the slightly longer term. If Tywin is so ready to back Rhaegar that he is willing to help him foster a usurpation and give away gold just to help set it up then after Aerys finally broke the lion's back with a final insult he... just sits on the sidelines for all of the Rebellion?

That seems remarkably wishy-washy for Tywin. I'd be unsuprised to learn he knew or suspected what Rhaegar was up to and was maybe going to let it happen sure, but he personally commits his resources and then doesn't carry through when trouble comes up?

Or from a totally different direction... further back Rhaegar arguably insulted the Lannisters, sure it was Aerys that turned down the marriage offer but family politics tends to have a broad brush.

[RoamingRonin]

I also thought it was because he knew he needed a new wife because of Elia's condition. Now I think he did it because he knew it was something he had to do to. I think he knew he was going to die (just like Jojen knows) and that's why he was so "emo" all the time. Each trip to Summerhall revealed to him new parts of his future and what he would have to do to reach it. Giving Lyanna the rose crown was just another step on the road to the Trident.

[Arrow of the Morning]

- Lyanna's location is unknown, but it seems she doesn't return to Winterfell, because she is not in Rickard's party when he leaves for Brandon's wedding in Riverrun. Many believe she stayed in Harrenhal with Lady Whent. This is credible because Hoster Tully's wife is a Whent and Lyanna was meant to marry Robert, who was in the Vale at the time.

I doubt that Lyanna stayed in Harrenhal after the tournament for two reason.

1) Ladies-in-Waiting and Handmaidens are noble women that serves a lady of a higher hank. So a queen, princess or lady of a great house would never served like maiden in the castle of other house. Lyanna was daughter of a Great Lord so was more likely that she had her own ladies-in-waiting in Winterfell than serves like one. We have many examples of noble women serving as handmaidens, Ladies-in-Waiting and companions in the books all serving ladies of higher hank.

2) Ladies-in-Waiting serve houses whose they have close ties and we have no evidence that the Starks were close of House Whent and even with Hoster Tully been the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands, liege of the Whents and married with a Whent may be they (surprisingly) was not so close of this house. Hoster and his family did not attended the Tourney of Harrenhal. They were close to Rhaegar, accepted to held a Tourney on his request. Rhaegar sponsored the event and in exchange the Whents could claim that they were most more powerful than they really were. Oswell Whent was member of the Kingsguard and loyal to Rhaegar. We don't know which side the Whents fought in the war. So, if the loyalty of this House with the Tullys was dubious his relationship with Starks, that would be mediated by house Tuly, would be even more questionable. If Lyanna serve like handmaiden/ lady-o-waiting would be in Riverrun, with Catelyn, her future sister-in-law.

Lyanna was catch by Rhaegar 50 km of Harrenhal and the castle is close of the crossing of the Trident and the River Road is more likely she was going to Riverrun to attend her brother's wedding.

[Rippounet]

Oh and no explanation works better because Rhaegar crowning Lyanna is a fundamentally stupid move for any motivation. Offending let see three great houses in one fell swoop, as the heir to the realm uh uh nope that's dumb any way you look at it and Rhaegar is not supposed to be an idiot or a fool. You need something irrationally motivating here and even anger doesn't quite match a gesture like this.

While I fundamentally agree with your argument, I think it works for the abduction, not the garland-incident on its own.

Giving the garland to Lyanna could create anger, certainly, but it was hardly a declaration of war. The Starks were certainly offended, but Robert laughed (in public). As for the third house, if you're referring to the Martells, it's quite likely Rhaegar would have explained his motive (whatever it was) to his wife, thus ensuring that they wouldn't feel slighted.

The garland only becomes this huge offence once Rhaegar is said to have abducted Lyanna. Suddenly, with the benefit of hindsight, the incident becomes extraordinarily stupid, because everyone assumes that Rhaegar has truly fallen for Lyanna, and that the garland was indeed meant as a romantic gesture. Yet, in itself, the garland incident was not enough to alienate any house for good. While Brandon was outraged and Ned upset, we don't even know of Rickard Stark's (the lord and brains of the house) reaction.

Dismissing love (unless it turns out Robert was right) undermines the most important thematic elements Rhaegar and Lyanna bring to the table. Namely the deconstruction and horrible price paid for acting on your heart flying in the face of chivalric romance the series apes and which can't really be matched by sneaky political sneakiness whatever its purpose or motivation.

This is a valid point, and in truth, I don't have any solid counter-argument for this.

I would argue that even if Rhaegar and Lyanna's love turned out to be less romantic than previously thought, the thematic elements would still stand, because the reveal would come late in the series.

What's more, there are plenty of other examples in the series where acting on one's heart has terrible or possibly terrible consequences. The World Book has Aegon V and his children. The books have Tyrion and Tysha, Jaime and Cersei, Dany and Daario... That's just on top of my head: I think the books have tons of examples of characters making mistakes for love, and that this is not just a theme of R&L, but a genuine literary reflexion on the burden of power and duty. After all, even Robert is completely blinded by his love for Lyanna, and pretty much fails as a king because he can't get over her death.

I could even daresay the abundance of such examples (even if none are as powerful) are false hints that Rhaegar did the same when, in fact, Crown Princes have far less liberty than anybody else in that regard. In other words, you see these thematic elements in R&L because that's what Martin wanted the reader to see.

Problem is the in the slightly longer term. If Tywin is so ready to back Rhaegar that he is willing to help him foster a usurpation and give away gold just to help set it up then after Aerys finally broke the lion's back with a final insult he... just sits on the sidelines for all of the Rebellion?

I'm not sure I get your point... If Tywin backed Rhaegar against Aerys even before Jaime was made a kingsguard... Why would he take part in a rebellion against Aerys led by a Baratheon/Arryn over something allegedly done by Rhaegar?

Tywin being on team Rhaegar actually explains why he did nothing during RR. He only took sides after Rhaegar's death, when the choice was between Aerys (the man who despised him and had slighted him so many times) and Robert (a man he could potentially form a lasting alliance with, and eventually married his daughter to). His man was dead, he adapted.

Or from a totally different direction... further back Rhaegar arguably insulted the Lannisters, sure it was Aerys that turned down the marriage offer but family politics tends to have a broad brush.

The world book pretty much takes this away. "We have a better king right here." At Duskendale, in 277AC. World book, page 119.

[Marcel]

Dismissing love (unless it turns out Robert was right) undermines the most important thematic elements Rhaegar and Lyanna bring to the table. Namely the deconstruction and horrible price paid for acting on your heart flying in the face of chivalric romance the series apes and which can't really be matched by sneaky political sneakiness whatever its purpose or motivation.

Oh and no explanation works better because Rhaegar crowning Lyanna is a fundamentally stupid move for any motivation. Offending let see three great houses in one fell swoop, as the heir to the realm uh uh nope that's dumb any way you look at it and Rhaegar is not supposed to be an idiot or a fool. You need something irrationally motivating here and even anger doesn't quite match a gesture like this.

I intend to deal with this his objection about love when I have more time, but I do not consider love the most important thematic element in the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna. The problem is that we use love or madness or obsession for prophecies to justify almost everything. But if you ask my opinion, I believe that the thematic importance of the entire Robert's Rebellion is how we see what motivates someone else, how We identify the motivation of another person. And how this impacts our own decisions.

Problem is the in the slightly longer term. If Tywin is so ready to back Rhaegar that he is willing to help him foster a usurpation and give away gold just to help set it up then after Aerys finally broke the lion's back with a final insult he... just sits on the sidelines for all of the Rebellion?

That seems remarkably wishy-washy for Tywin. I'd be unsuprised to learn he knew or suspected what Rhaegar was up to and was maybe going to let it happen sure, but he personally commits his resources and then doesn't carry through when trouble comes up?

Or from a totally different direction... further back Rhaegar arguably insulted the Lannisters, sure it was Aerys that turned down the marriage offer but family politics tends to have a broad brush.

Tywin only acted when he heard about Rhaegar. Tywin would never fight for Aerys. He did not move before knowing where Rhaegar was and what Rhaegar would do. When news about Rhaegar's death arrived, he did the obvious: he liquidated Aerys. Tywin was ready to act, that's why he came so fast to King's Landing. Without Rhaegar, there is no reason to keep the Targaryens in the throne and the wisest move is to join the rebels.

[Marcel]

I intend to join this discussion as soon as I have more time.

[Rippounet]

I doubt that Lyanna stayed in Harrenhal after the tournament for two reason.

Valid points, but if Lyanna was the KotLT and her brothers discovered it, there would be a solid reason to ignore tradition and keep her where she couldn't do anything stupid until her wedding.

Harrenhal is just a possibility. For all we know they put her with the silent sisters for a few months... (that would make for a hilarious episode, har har).

Wherever she was, someone learned of it, obviously, and planned her abduction accordingly.

[Rippounet]

I also thought it was because he knew he needed a new wife because of Elia's condition. Now I think he did it because he knew it was something he had to do to. I think he knew he was going to die (just like Jojen knows) and that's why he was so "emo" all the time. Each trip to Summerhall revealed to him new parts of his future and what he would have to do to reach it. Giving Lyanna the rose crown was just another step on the road to the Trident.

A "main character knows he must eventually sacrifice himself for the greater good" trope? Oh, I think this one will be in the last book. With a plot twist. ;)

[Ygrain]

Sorry for just skimming through the thread as I am in a hurry, but one thing doesn't quite fit for the tourney to be rigged. There were other guys who were unhorsed by Rhaegar before he could get to the final tilt, namely Brandon, who definitely wouldn't have agreed to losing the tourney just so the Prince Charming could gather his laurels. There is also the unusual zeal with which Rhaegar jousted, just like Jorah when he wanted to crown Lynesse. Any take on these?

[kissdbyfire]

Given that I've yet to find any mention of the weather being changing at the Tourney I've kind of inferred that it must be say closer to the middle of the year. Just even in a "false spring" I would expect some transition (aka what we might consider a normal season) back into winter mode and nothing suggests so far that people at the Tourney had any indication then winter would not be years away.Plus Rhaegar returning to King's Landing for a time and then riding out suggests an more substanial interval as well.Which is interesting because it asks what Lyanna was doing anywhere near Harrenhal still and how evidently fairly quickly Rhaegar was able to find her.

If you look at the part of the text I quoted you'll see it says the FS lasted less than two turns, and that when the year ended winter returned, with heavy snows falling in KL on the last day of the year. Since the tourney took place during the FS, it must have happened during the year's last two turns.

@Ripponet, I've wondered much about the crown of blue winter roses too. But in the end I think it's just a minor slip of the pen, so to speak. Something Martin just didn't think much about. As to the dates being so difficult to pin down, he's said he leaves dates, and timelines, and distances deliberately vague.

[martianmister]

Because she is the knight of laughing tree and she should won.

[SolomonBlack]

While I fundamentally agree with your argument, I think it works for the abduction, not the garland-incident on its own.

Giving the garland to Lyanna could create anger, certainly, but it was hardly a declaration of war. The Starks were certainly offended, but Robert laughed (in public). As for the third house, if you're referring to the Martells, it's quite likely Rhaegar would have explained his motive (whatever it was) to his wife, thus ensuring that they wouldn't feel slighted.

The garland only becomes this huge offence once Rhaegar is said to have abducted Lyanna. Suddenly, with the benefit of hindsight, the incident becomes extraordinarily stupid, because everyone assumes that Rhaegar has truly fallen for Lyanna, and that the garland was indeed meant as a romantic gesture. Yet, in itself, the garland incident was not enough to alienate any house for good. While Brandon was outraged and Ned upset, we don't even know of Rickard Stark's (the lord and brains of the house) reaction.

Yes Martell would be the third.

And the point is that public insults remain public insults no matter how you know the people involved. To a degree the dynastic house politics becomes a machine unto itself where family name overrules all. And you can never be sure someone won't chew over it later, its not hard to imagine Robert started taking it seriously before Lyanna was abducted for example. And either way ignore enough insults and you're Tytos Lannister for example. Now sure something like this is not realm ruining... but it never becomes smart.

Given to be fair Rhaegar was a bit of kook in a "thinks too much" kinda way if we credit Barristan's account of how he becomes a knight, but as some kind of insult to Brandon that's so esoteric it starts to resemble Vizzini with poisoned wine kinda thinking. Too many circles.

This is a valid point, and in truth, I don't have any solid counter-argument for this.

I would argue that even if Rhaegar and Lyanna's love turned out to be less romantic than previously thought, the thematic elements would still stand, because the reveal would come late in the series.

What's more, there are plenty of other examples in the series where acting on one's heart has terrible or possibly terrible consequences. The World Book has Aegon V and his children. The books have Tyrion and Tysha, Jaime and Cersei, Dany and Daario... That's just on top of my head: I think the books have tons of examples of characters making mistakes for love, and that this is not just a theme of R&L, but a genuine literary reflexion on the burden of power and duty. After all, even Robert is completely blinded by his love for Lyanna, and pretty much fails as a king because he can't get over her death.

I could even daresay the abundance of such examples (even if none are as powerful) are false hints that Rhaegar did the same when, in fact, Crown Princes have far less liberty than anybody else in that regard. In other words, you see these thematic elements in R&L because that's what Martin wanted the reader to see.

Certainly Martin uses the high price of love a lot I think it ultimately comes to a common theme though not a hint that any particular case is false. Also particular points to Lyanna and Rhaegar:

1. This one is one of (if not the) first case introduced in the books.

2. A sub-plot should be judged on how it works in isolation as well as in the grand scheme.

3. While historically we can get some examples in the series itself I don't think there is a comparably classic high drama example. Cersei and Jaime start a war too, but very nearly pull it off plus you know the incest thing.

The purpose of adding some colder motivation ultimately ruling the whole affair I think can only serve a dramatic purpose if R+L=J is going to be giant red herring Shamamaladingdong twist. Which is of course possible but I believe I just pointed out the problem with.

I'm not sure I get your point... If Tywin backed Rhaegar against Aerys even before Jaime was made a kingsguard... Why would he take part in a rebellion against Aerys led by a Baratheon/Arryn over something allegedly done by Rhaegar?

Tywin being on team Rhaegar actually explains why he did nothing during RR. He only took sides after Rhaegar's death, when the choice was between Aerys (the man who despised him and had slighted him so many times) and Robert (a man he could potentially form a lasting alliance with, and eventually married his daughter to). His man was dead, he adapted.

If he's already plotting to overthrow Aerys enough to throw the largest tourney in living memory just to provide the Crown Prince a place to plot then why after those plans have to be in motion does he resign the Handship and sit in Casterly Rock... instead of marching for Rhaegar.

I can see Tywin washing his hands of the Targs and going off to fume over the unending insults he's received, it seems too wishy-washy for him to have an already active scheme to solve the Aerys Problem in motion then simply abandon it because some minor trouble pops up.

We've seen the power Tywin can throw around, his neutrality is a critical denial of power for the Targaryens in Robert's favor.

The world book pretty much takes this away. "We have a better king right here." At Duskendale, in 277AC. World book, page 119.

Yeah I had the timeline crossed but checking that Aerys turning down Cersei would be before Duskendale

If you look at the part of the text I quoted you'll see it says the FS lasted less than two turns, and that when the year ended winter returned, with heavy snows falling in KL on the last day of the year. Since the tourney took place during the FS, it must have happened during the year's last two turns.

@Ripponet, I've wondered much about the crown of blue winter roses too. But in the end I think it's just a minor slip of the pen, so to speak. Something Martin just didn't think much about. As to the dates being so difficult to pin down, he's said he leaves dates, and timelines, and distances deliberately vague.

Two months is not enough time to organize a tourney that huge and allow for all the travel since it was a realm wide event...so weather must have must have been at the very least warming substantially before hand even if they only called it full on spring/summer for two turns. And Rhaegar had to go to King's Landing then back out again.

That's still an odd length of time for Lyanna to be just hanging around Harrenhal without say knowing she was friends with the Whents or something.

[Rippounet]

Sorry for just skimming through the thread as I am in a hurry, but one thing doesn't quite fit for the tourney to be rigged. There were other guys who were unhorsed by Rhaegar before he could get to the final tilt, namely Brandon, who definitely wouldn't have agreed to losing the tourney just so the Prince Charming could gather his laurels. There is also the unusual zeal with which Rhaegar jousted, just like Jorah when he wanted to crown Lynesse. Any take on these?

Well, the tournament would never be completely rigged, that's too much to pull even for Rhaegar. But IIRC, Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne had been the finalists at least twice before, and there seems to have been a friendly competition between those two. So at least Arthur Dayne being in on whatever Rhaegar was trying to do makes sense, especially with Barry's later reflections on the subject.

As for the unusual zeal, I tend to think the Jorah-Lynesse parallel is one of those intentional false hints I mentioned for the reader to think that Rhaegar was acting on love when in fact his motives were more complex.

[Rippounet]

@Rippounet, I've wondered much about the crown of blue winter roses too. But in the end I think it's just a minor slip of the pen, so to speak. Something Martin just didn't think much about. As to the dates being so difficult to pin down, he's said he leaves dates, and timelines, and distances deliberately vague.

In this case I highly doubt the garland incident is just a slip of the pen. It's closer to being one of the central mysteries of the books, and I think Martin put a lot of thought into Harrenhal.

And the dates and timelines make perfect sense here, it's only that one doesn't necessarily pay attention to them when reading and can easily come to the wrong conclusions.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

From this we can safely deduce that:

- Aegon can only be born in late 281 AC.

- Because Elia was fragile, it's unlikely she would manage to attend a tournament after Aegon's birth.

- When Aegon is born, Rhaegar is still close to Elia (he talks to her of the prophesy, so he trusts her that much) and has no reason to look at/for another woman.

- It's thus unlikely that Rhaegar would fall in love with Lyanna at Harrenhal.

There is a huge gap in this reasoning. The premise is that

a) Men who are close "fond" to their wives have no reason to look at/want another woman

b ) Rhaegar is a man

c) Rhaegar is close to his wife Elia

thus:

d) Rhaegar had no reason to want another woman

so:

e) It is unlikely that Rhaegar fell in love with Lyanna

For d to be true, a,b,and c need to be true. I won't argue against b and c, but I believe that premise a is very very flimsy.

Plenty of men, and women, look at and desire other men and women, despite the fact that they may indeed still be madly in love with their spouses. It could be argued that a man or woman may even feel love for another man or woman, even despite still being deeply in love with their spouse.

The evidence of Rhaegar's devotion to Elia seems to me to be rather thin. He is described as being "fond" of Elia? Being "fond" of someone usually isn't a descriptor of feelings of deep love and devotion. Understandable I suppose in the realm of arranged marriages. I personally am very fond of many things. I'm fond of my pets, dogs, and cats. I'm fond of some of my neighbors. I'm fond of Maker's Mark bourbon. The feelings that I have for my wife, children, parents, and siblings could not be contained by the word "fond".

Finally, the feeling of love doesn't not usually have anything to do with "reason". It's a passion. It's emotion. Wether it is love in the form of desire, friendship, or devotion, it has nothing to do with reason. If you are substituting "reason" for "cause", then a cause for desire can be a little as too much hormones and too little self control. But even then, Rhaegar has ample causes to feel desire for Lyanna Stark.

1) Lyanna took the role of the Knight of the Laughing Tree to defend Howland Reed from the "three squires." Aerys, offended for some reason, orders Rhaegar to look for TKotLT, but Rhaegar only brings back his shield.

It's speculated that Rhaegar actually did find out that Lyanna was TKoLT but protected her from Aery's wrath.

Thus, maybe Rhaegar gave the garland to Lyanna to show his admiration for her valour and honour. There is no reason to think it was a romantic gesture.

So you recognize that Rhaegar may have had admiration for Lyanna's valor and honor (no u's here, we do things right) if the theory of her being the Knight of the Laughing Tree is correct, and that Rhaegar discovered her. Is not admiration for a woman's valor and honor enough of a cause for Rhaegar to desire Lyanna? Aren't the greatest of loves built on admiration and respect of another's actions and character? So if the theory turns out to be true, there was ample cause for Rhaegar to desire Lyanna, if indeed Rhaegar admired those aspects of character. Of course, it could also be as simple as Lyanna having a really nice ass too. It certainly wouldn't have hurt.

I don't believe the garland can be construed as proof of romantic feelings. It's possible to have respect and admiration without sexual desire. But there is also no proof at all that it wasn't a romantic gesture, and given the latter kidnapping or elopement, if Rhaegar DID fall in love with Lyanna, then it occurred or had it's seeds in Harrenhall.

[The Dames do Moan]

I saw your theory on the other thread and was tempted to mention it, but wanted to think it over, precisely because it struck me as brillant.

It certainly fits much of what we know:

- It would explain Brandon's outrage if he understood the message (even more so if the message had already been given to him in another form).

- It would explain Brandon's insane hatred of Rhaegar, and his obvious desire to kill him.

- It would explain how and why Arthur Dayne would have helped Rhaegar at Harrenhal (and Barristan's regrets).

- It would explain why Rhaegar would prepare that garland specifically for Lyanna, and why winning the tournament to deliver it was so important for him.

- Even if the tournament had originally been planned for political reasons, Aery's presence would have left Rhaegar free to follow his own code of honour in this matter.

It's completely in line with Rhaegar's character. Arthur Dayne was pretty much his best friend ; Ashara would have been like a sister to him. If Arthur went to Brandon first and was laughed at, Rhaegar would have had good reason to take matters in his own hands. But given the political situation and Brandon's status, such a "message" would have been the best choice.

It's perfectly possible to imagine Elia and the Martells were complicit... (or even Lyanna, though that's a bit of a stretch)

It might even be a plausible reason for Ashara's suicide, if she thought the garland incident to be to blame for the war. After learning of Ned killing Arthur, she would have felt responsible for their fight and her brother's death.

I look forward to reading your complete theory, and hope I haven't spoiled your fun. Kudos mate!

Do you have a link to the thread your speaking about?

I ask cause I loved this on my first read but my main objection is the "dishonoring" or Arshara turning to a Stark or whatever actually happened seems to have happened after the tourny at HH. For this all to line up, it would seem that Arthur went to Brandon before the tourny about something relating to Ashara and was rebuffed and Rhaegar than gave the garland as a message.

But it seems from Barristans POV that he thinks that if he won the tournament and crowned Ashara she never would have turned to a Stark. So he seems to think whatever happened between them happened after the tournament and him winning could have stopped it.

Like I said, I liked it, just couldn't seem to get past that point and would more info.

[Rippounet]

And the point is that public insults remain public insults no matter how you know the people involved. To a degree the dynastic house politics becomes a machine unto itself where family name overrules all. And you can never be sure someone won't chew over it later, its not hard to imagine Robert started taking it seriously before Lyanna was abducted for example. And either way ignore enough insults and you're Tytos Lannister for example. Now sure something like this is not realm ruining... but it never becomes smart.

Oh, it certainly wasn't wise, at least on the face of it, but that's precisely why Rhaegar's motives are such a key to understanding what was really going on at that time.

Given to be fair Rhaegar was a bit of kook in a "thinks too much" kinda way if we credit Barristan's account of how he becomes a knight, but as some kind of insult to Brandon that's so esoteric it starts to resemble Vizzini with poisoned wine kinda thinking. Too many circles.

Well, the Brandon-Ashara theory is a good one because it seems to explain Brandon's over-the-top reaction, Ashara's later suicide, and even Barry's reflection that Harrenhal proved Rhaegar trusted Arthur Dayne more than him.

Now this doesn't necessarily mean it was Rhaegar's only motive for giving the garland to Lyanna. Rhaegar could still have other reasons of his own.

I would tend to think that a combination of things made giving the garland a must-do for Rhaegar. Brandon-Ashara would explain why he was willing to antagonize the Stark brothers at least. But I'm still not dismissing another hidden message. The garland as a remontrance to Brandon makes sense, but I would think it also had to make a different sense for Lyanna herself, and yet another sense for the spectators as well. In another words I'd like to believe that this was a very calculated move with different meanings for each person present.

What seems to support this is precisely the fact that the people present did react in very different ways. The Starks were pissed, but we don't have Lyanna's reaction. Robert laughs, and broods later, which seems to indicate he first saw it as a compliment, and only later came to see it as a possible romantic gesture. And most importantly, the Martells apparently don't react, or at least not in any significant way. Lewyn was close to Rhaegar, so maybe we can dismiss his lack of reaction as loyalty or friendship, but you'd think hot-blooded Oberyn would demand an explanation for this slight on Elia's honour, unless he knew it wasn't a slight in he first place.

Robert's perception is the most "standard" one to me: to be surprised first (enough to lose your smile), then to think of it as a compliment (and laugh), and only later to think it over and wonder what it really meant (talking and brooding). The problem is, once Rhaegar allegedly abducts Lyanna, everyone automatically concludes it was a romantic gesture. Yet, as long as we don't have any indication that the Martells ever saw it that way, we can assume they knew of Rhaegar's real motive.

I've always found it odd that Oberyn, in his quest for vengeance, is so focused on the Lannisters and (IIRC) never speaks badly of Rhaegar. Or that the Martells, in spite of what the rebellion cost them, remain Targaryen loyalists to this day. You'd think the Crown Prince cheating on his Dornish wife and thus starting a rebellion eventually leading to Elia and her children's death would antagonize them a bit, wouldn't you? Also, Aerys seemed to have been very distrustful of the Martells, while Lewyn and Rhaegar were apparently close. So I'd conclude the Martells knew what Rhaegar was doing all along.

Certainly Martin uses the high price of love a lot I think it ultimately comes to a common theme though not a hint that any particular case is false. Also particular points to Lyanna and Rhaegar:

1. This one is one of (if not the) first case introduced in the books.

2. A sub-plot should be judged on how it works in isolation as well as in the grand scheme.

3. While historically we can get some examples in the series itself I don't think there is a comparably classic high drama example. Cersei and Jaime start a war too, but very nearly pull it off plus you know the incest thing.

The purpose of adding some colder motivation ultimately ruling the whole affair I think can only serve a dramatic purpose if R+L=J is going to be giant red herring Shamamaladingdong twist. Which is of course possible but I believe I just pointed out the problem with.

Well, for starters I am indeed starting to think that R+L=J is a giant red herring.

But even if it isn't... However the affair between Rhaegar and Lyanna started does not preclude a dramatic love story unfolding. In fact, I would say it might make it all the more poignant.

If he's already plotting to overthrow Aerys enough to throw the largest tourney in living memory just to provide the Crown Prince a place to plot then why after those plans have to be in motion does he resign the Handship and sit in Casterly Rock... instead of marching for Rhaegar.

I can see Tywin washing his hands of the Targs and going off to fume over the unending insults he's received, it seems too wishy-washy for him to have an already active scheme to solve the Aerys Problem in motion then simply abandon it because some minor trouble pops up.

We've seen the power Tywin can throw around, his neutrality is a critical denial of power for the Targaryens in Robert's favor.

I don't know... Tywin is very shrewd. Even in his madness, Aerys kept a lot of support. The Stark-Baratheon-Tully-Arryn alliance that was emerging was extremely powerful and did not appear to want to side with Rhaegar against Aerys. Other lords and houses could have seen an interest in moving against the Lannisters. Marching for Rhaegar would have been suicide.

Providing the gold for the tournament wasn't exactly an active scheme in itself (though of course, Aerys would see it that way): it was likely supposed to give Rhaegar the opportunity to ensure other great houses wouldn't interfere if the Lannisters and Martells sought to depose Aerys.

And just a thought: how politically important was the garland-incident anyway? The Stark brothers were upset, but the person who mattered was really Rickard. The Martells didn't react, so they probably understood what Rhaegar was doing. We don't know where the devil the Tyrells were at that point. So the only person whose support Rhaegar needed was apparently Robert.

While giving the garland to his betrothed might seem dumb at a glance, Lyanna was also supposed to become Lady Baratheon. In the long run, befriending Lyanna could prove quite useful to get the support of the Baratheons, if Robert could later be convinced that Rhaegar had no actual interest in Lyanna ; if Rhaegar had found out Lyanna was TKotLT he could have thought she was up to the job. And it was less obvious than trying to communicate directly with Robert.

I've speculated once before that with the garland Rhaegar wasn't trying to win over the allegiance of the Starks. He could have been trying to win Robert's, by opening a channel of communication through his wife. On the surface, everyone might think Rhaegar had a thing for Lyanna, but the Martells (and other supporters) would have been informed it was just a trick.

What went wrong? Well Lyanna disappeared for a long while, and I assume her family locked her away because of her being TKotLT. And then, of course, she was allegedly abducted by Rhaegar, making the whole "false romance" thing suddenly a given for the whole kingdom.

Just another idea. As you see, I'm not set on one just yet, for lack of textual evidence.

[Rippounet]

Do you have a link to the thread your speaking about?

But it seems from Barristans POV that he thinks that if he won the tournament and crowned Ashara she never would have turned to a Stark. So he seems to think whatever happened between them happened after the tournament and him winning could have stopped it.

Maybe Brandon was only courting Ashara at that point? Sending her flowers or something?

Anyway, I first saw Marcel's theory here, but he said he intends to open a thread to develop and discuss it when he has the time:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/128952-a-matter-of-trust-rheagar-dayne-and-selmy-at-harrenhal/