Debating Sansa

[Westeros]

The closing event of “Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken” has stirred huge amounts of controversy among the viewership, as a lead character is subjected to a chilling, horrifying act of sexual violence.

For my part, this led to about 3 hours worth of discussion on Twitter with fellow fans of the novels who responded much more negatively than I did. It was AngryGOTFan who suggested we each do short videos discussing our respective views. And so Linda and I have a short video, not so much praising and defending the scene, because we had and still have issues with how it actually came about, but rather responding to some particular critiques which we took issue with.

Rather than linking the videos here, I’d recommend fans go visit AngryGOTFan’s website and watch both of the videos.

For those who want more in-depth, written discussions of the topic that share something of our view on the issue, see Amanda Marcotte’s piece at Raw Story, and Laura Bradley’s article at Slate.

And for those who missed it, we have posted our video review of the episode, which you’ll find in the episode guide, but we’ll embed it below at the point where we discuss the final segment of the episode:

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[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Some disagreement with your point on whether it was only for shock value.

It's not for shock value in the books because we haven't been witness to Ramsay's depravity (we've only seen the consequences), and we have not really seen Jeyne Poole at all. The incident is a character establishing moment in the books, it served a great narrative purpose beyond "just for shock value".

In the show it doesn't do any of this because Ramsay's depravity has already been shown many time, and Sansa is some one we already know and empathize with, so the scene in the show is actually much more "only for shock value".

[Rohlin_the_Wretched]

How can you say we haven't seen Ramsay's depravity in the show? He physically and mentally broke Theon Greyjoy right down to removing his prized possession and then made a joke to Theon about eating it. He hunted a girl he became bored with like he was hunting a deer. I think television viewers have received a good peak inside the sick mind that belongs to Ramsay Bolton.

The rape scene was done because it made sense, not for shock value or any other reason. If something sick and twisted didn't happen on the wedding night, it would have been a huge departure from Ramsay's character. What happened to Jeyne Poole in the books was far worse than what happened to Sansa in the episode, so people can take solace in that.

I would also like to applaud Sophie Turner for coming out and defending the scene!

[Stan Man]

It's not for shock value in the books because we haven't been witness to Ramsay's depravity (we've only seen the consequences), and we have not really seen Jeyne Poole at all. The incident is a character establishing moment in the books, it served a great narrative purpose beyond "just for shock value".

In the show it doesn't do any of this because Ramsay's depravity has already been shown many time, and Sansa is some one we already know and empathize with, so the scene in the show is actually much more "only for shock value".

But just because we've seen Ramsay's depravity before, doesn't mean they're not allowed to show it again. Sansa wasn't seen to Winterfell to be raped. Instead, the rape occurs because of Ramsay's placement there. If the writers said, "Well, it's consistent with Ramsay's character to rape Sansa, BUT we've already shown him torturing people. So, why don't we take out the rape entirely?" well, then, it's inconsistent.

[Chebyshov]

First of all, Elio and Linda, I want to say I have absolutely nothing but respect for you, and truly love and value your commentary.

However, I do take a little bit of an issue with this line of argument.

From what I can tell, the remarks of Elio and Linda, as well as the critics of the those criticizing the rape seem to be aimed at the visceral and reactionary “OMG there shouldn’t ever be rape!” Which is a position I don’t agree with either. I hear and understand the critique that an author doesn’t have to create a misogynistic world or depict sexual violence against women, but I disagree that there isn’t value in exploring one that is, especially given how close to home these issues still strike. I wrote a rather long analysis to this point.

So yes, I believe people are correct in saying that it would have been disingenuous for Ramsay to not rape his bride. This makes sense...for Ramsay. The thing is, this entire Winterhell plotline has been disingenuous to the characters of Littlefinger, Sansa, and Roose. And I know that's something that Elio and Linda have taken issue with too, I don't mean to imply otherwise.

However, that’s the reason that I don’t agree with a “wait and see” attitude about it. I agree that it’s not going to be 100% smooth sailing for Book!Sansa too, but the outcry wasn’t just a reaction about “oh no she’s made to suffer again.” It’s that they literally dialed back her characterization and blew up the themes of her arc. So even if they somehow handle her violation deftly (which…forgive me for not giving D&D the benefit of the doubt at this point), it isn’t her story. The total and complete butchering of Sansa’s storyline was completed with this rape. And that’s not something the show can come back from. To me, that is a very good reason for the disgusted outcry and people turning away from watching. It was senseless and it was done to shock. If they wanted to intimately deal with a woman coming back from the rape of Ramsay, there was a character for that. They chose not to use her. And for the millionth time, this is why:

“You have this storyline with Ramsay. Do you have one of your leading ladies—who is an incredibly talented actor who we’ve followed for five years and viewers love and adore—do it? Or do you bring in a new character to do it? To me, the question answers itself: You use the character the audience is invested in.” -Bryan Cogman

So for me, there’s no waiting and seeing, because what they did was just outright exploitation of a character and the empathies of viewers for the sake of shock. They say as much. And for the sake of “this storyline with Ramsay.” Why does Ramsay get prioritzed over Sansa?

But. It feels like Elio and Linda, as well as others who argue a similar point, are trying to look at this episode in and of itself. And for them, the rape was a foregone conclusion. Which I totally see that argument, and I 100% agree that a wife of Ramsay Bolton would get brutalized on the wedding night. Yet at the end of Season 4, D&D made it pretty clear that Sansa is an intuitive character, if nothing else. She tells Littlefinger “I know what you want,” and then outright acts on that, getting the Vale Lords on her side and positioning herself to have Littlefinger wrapped around her little finger. However much they dialed that back to get Sansa into Winterfell, they seemed to have some shred of understanding that intuition is a strength of hers, because that was in the Myranda scene. And a little bit in her dinner scene the episode before, when she’s clearly happy that Ramsay got bad news because she is starting to see him for who he truly is.

So even though Myranda was trying to scare Sansa, it is alerting Sansa to Ramsay’s “true” nature. Clearly the episode before she was getting the impression that this isn’t the type of guy who you want to marry. And given his outward cruelness, the “make him yours” plan should feel DOA to her (again, as a character who gets Myranda’s motivations, calls her on it, and cows her…they’ve written Sansa inconsistently, but at least have her be one person in an episode). So maybe wouldn’t that have been a very good time to employ the Brienne bat-signal? Or to do something other than quietly resign herself to a completely illogical and unbeneficial fate?

Not to mention, the show is clearly doing whatever it damn-well pleases, so the idea that had to include this to stick to the integrity of the situation is a bit paper-thin at this point. As if they couldn't have imagined some other way to utilize Sansa that didn't end in rape. It's also particularly disturbing that the “empowerment” they gave Sansa in that scene with Myranda was simply to add to the shock and horror of what was coming up.

As I said, was rape a foregone conclusion to the bride of Ramsay? Yes. Need it have been for Sansa? No. Plus I think it is should be noted that the D&D are more willing to remain true to Ramsay Bolton than they are to Sansa Stark. So that’s why to me, the “it would have been disingenuous otherwise" argument doesn't resonate.

For those trying to say "well Jeyne was raped too," it just totally ignores and devalues the empathetic reaction on the part of fans. Yes, we will care more about Sansa being raped on screen because we are more invested in her character. So to put fans through something like that without damn good reasons is frankly, an abuse of power on their part. It's irresponsible. And we know there were no good reasons because there was zero logic applied to get Sansa into this situation. Not to mention, Jeyne served her own thematic point, acting as a higher commentary on the treatment of girls who "don't matter" in a way that serves as a direct foil to Sansa's own suffering. And yet both girls' responded to their victimization in a way that was consistent with their own characterization.

This stuff matters. Narrative point matters. It's okay to depict these things, but it can't just be there for the hell of it. And what's more concerning is that the way the show carried this out created a space for apologists. There's legitimate cultural harm that a show with this many viewers can have if this is the kind of story they're going to tell over and over.

I thought they may have learned their lesson last year with Cersei. Clearly not.

[Good Guy Garlan]

^ Perfectly put. Agreed on all accounts.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

But just because we've seen Ramsay's depravity before, doesn't mean they're not allowed to show it again. Sansa wasn't seen to Winterfell to be raped. Instead, the rape occurs because of Ramsay's placement there. If the writers said, "Well, it's consistent with Ramsay's character to rape Sansa, BUT we've already shown him torturing people. So, why don't we take out the rape entirely?" well, then, it's inconsistent.

It's not that the aren't allowed to show it again, it's just that it's not good storytelling. The show had limited number of minutes of screen time, each scene should exist for a reason, each scene should propel the story forward for the audience in some way. Like I said, in the book the abuse of Jeyne did that, in that show it did not. D&D are not good storytellers, their idea of good storytelling are stuck in the juvenile level of staging "gotcha" moments.

[Rohlin_the_Wretched]

@Chebyshov

Let's back this up and insert Jenye Poole into her rightful place and leave Sansa in the Vale. Here is another minor character they are going to have to dispose of at some point and really has no other purpose in any story arc. You are already saw one person dead this season that already that probably has no major involvement in the end game (Selmy) and two more who could be following in short order (Mormont has Greyscales and Bronn was more than likely poisoned by Tyene Sand), so you are going to introduce a minor throw away character that will probably do more to confuse show watchers than advance a plot line. We already have two Starks out the entire season (more than likely), did you really want Sansa in the same boat? Sansa was the most logical choice to fill the void needed by not introducing Jenye Poole.

I find the whole "she took a step back and it is unrealistic" argument faulty as it applies to real life. When you think you have complete control of your life, that is usually about the time the rug gets pulled out from under you. Ask anyone that deals with addiction if they ever take a step forward and two steps backwards! It happens some times on a daily basis. Everyone fails at points in their lives, you can't win them all. People lose their jobs, homes and loved ones everyday ... you can't control everything!

Sansa has started to learn to play the game, but she hasn't played long enough to be proficient at it! Consider this a cruel introduction into the reality of the situation, she still doesn't have control and is still far from it. She is still being used (by LF and the Boltons) and until she acknowledges this and owns it, she is still going to have failures. Maybe this will be her breakthrough, she thought she could manipulate LF and it should be quite obvious at this point, she cannot. Perhaps she will convince a broken Theon Greyjoy to help her escape the situation she is in and somehow redeem herself in the eyes of some views.

[Le Cygne]

Cersei and Jaime -

Benioff described the scene this way:

"It becomes a really kind of horrifying scene, because you see, obviously, Joffrey's body right there, and you see that Cersei is resisting this. She's saying no, and he's forcing himself on her. So it was a really uncomfortable scene, and a tricky scene to shoot."

And again:

"You are right to be disturbed by it. I think it was a brutal scene... It felt to us when we were writing it like this is something the character was going to do at that moment. And it was a horrible thing to do."

Sansa -

I read 50 reviews, and most expressed the same points as these, these are the points I have seen most who object to this scene state:

The Mary Sue -

The show has creators. They make the choices. They chose to use rape as a plot device. Again.

In this particular instance, rape is not necessary to Sansa's character development (she's already overcome abusive violence at the hands of men); it is not necessary to establish Ramsay as a bad guy (we already know he is); it is not necessary to prove how bad things were for women (Game of Thrones exists in a fictional universe, and we already know its exceptionally patriarchal). Rape here, like in all instances, is not a necessary story-driving device.

http://www.themarysue.com/we-will-no-longer-be-promoting-hbos-game-of-thrones/

Vanity Fair-

But did it really have to be rape that brought her low? Is that really the only horror Game of Thrones can imagine visiting on its female characters?... Even worse than the idea of Sansa needing this to motivate her into vengeance is the notion that the Theon character needed to watch her rape in order to snap out of whatever zombie/Reek fugue state he's been walking around in.

I'm afraid that is the show's interpretation, based on where the camera lingered. But the last thing we needed was to have a powerful young woman brought low in order for a male character to find redemption. No thank you... I think most audiences would have been happy with Sansa as avenging angel without subjecting her to a rape. After all, these are the people who killed her family.

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2015/05/game-of-thrones-rape-sansa-stark

Wired -

There have been a lot of complaints over the years about the way Game of Thrones deals with rape, and it's earned them. It has a tendency to use rape sensationally and frequently, not to mention the troubling incident last season where a director filmed a rape scene and didn't even realize it...

Forcing her back into the role of victim and sexually humiliating her at the hands of yet another sadistic fiance adds nothing that we haven't seen before, and indeed, feels regressive. All the forward momentum of her character development is undercut by this assault, transforming her back into the same little girl she was at Kings Landing, weeping as her dress was torn off. Shoehorning additional abuse and rape into her story at this point isn't just upsetting; it's boring and counterproductive. Poorly done, show. Poorly done.

http://www.wired.com/2015/05/game-of-thrones-recap-s05e06/

Salon -

To exist as a woman on a cable drama is to understand that at some point you're probably going to be raped by someone you know or in the presence of someone you know or as a punishment to someone you know, but it's okay because in the end, it just gives you something to overcome and everyone knows that having something to overcome is the only way to prove that you are a strong woman...

This was a choice and the choice was to marry off a teenage girl, rape her, and not even have the dignity to care primarily about her feelings about her fate... The character who had shown the most growth and potential for becoming her own woman.. is broken down in a matter of minutes, then not even given enough agency to suffer her own assault.

http://www.salon.com/2015/05/18/game_of_thrones_recap_the_honor_of_your_presence_is_requested_at_another_brutal_wedding/

Salon (another) -

So with this last scene, I think the showrunners have betrayed the trust of their audience, by depicting a scene of brutality against Sansa Stark for no purpose. We already knew that Ramsay Bolton was a sadist and an abuser of women, we already knew that Theon Greyjoy was his tormented puppet. Showing Sansa's dress ripped, showing her face shoved down into the bed, hearing her screams did nothing to reveal character, or advance the plot, or critique anything about Westerosi society or about our own conceptions of medieval society that hasn't already been critiqued.

http://www.salon.com/2015/05/18/game_of_thrones_politics_secret_missions_desperate_lies_and_the_dangerous_art_of_the_double_cross/

Hypable -

But this begs the question; why should Sansa have to deal with such a thing at all? What character development could be wrung from this tragedy that could not have been created without a violent rape? Why does Game of Thrones - and so much popular entertainment - revert to this horrific crime when they want their female characters to grow?... There are better ways to sculpt characters than sexual exploitation. There are more productive ways to cause pain than rape. And Game of Thrones has lost the luxury of further indulging in this social blight; it is way past time they do better. The Sansa Starks of the world are waiting.

http://www.hypable.com/game-of-thrones-sansa-stark-rape/

USA Today -

The scene of course sparked all kinds of outcry for the disastrous way the show has treated Sansa (who in the books, is rape-free and nowhere near Winterfell or Ramsay at this point). Was giving Sansa this storyline really necessary? Was this a sign of the show's completely misogynistic way of treating its female characters? For many viewers though, it wasn't about loyalty to the books so much as loyalty to the character and integrity of Sansa Stark, who seems like she was handed a rape storyline to make her more sympathetic or give Theon the push he needs to lash out against Ramsay.

http://entertainthis.usatoday.com/2015/05/18/author-george-r-r-martin-responds-to-game-of-thrones-sansa-stark-rape-scene/

Washington Post -

The use of sexual violence as plot device is not new to Game of Thrones and it's not unique just to this show, either. But while on each occasion in the past it's been plenty disturbing, tonight's closing scene with Ramsay Bolton and Sansa was just flat-out disgusting.

Even if you've never read the books (myself included and that shouldn't limit anyone's enjoyment of the show) it's hard not to know that what happens to Sansa in this episode doesn't happen to Sansa in the books. The show's creators are free to take liberty with certain storylines and characters, but by putting Sansa into this situation, by taking a character that viewers are fully invested in, and subjecting her to the horrors of Ramsay Bolton, it's hard to interpret this as anything but using her rape as an emotionally manipulative plot device.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/style-blog/wp/2015/05/18/game-of-thrones-recap-season-5-episode-6-unbowed-unbent-unbroken-but-plenty-disgusted-and-disappointed/

Flavorwire -

The audience doesn't really see the event that ends Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken, just two close-ups: the first on a terrified Sansa, the second on a man who identified himself as Theon Greyjoy just hours before. The second closeup lasts far longer, the emotion on its subject's face rawer. That's because, to make an already disgusting situation even more so, what happens to Sansa isn't even about Sansa; it's about teaching Theon he's still Reek...

Which brings us to the question of just why Sansa's rape had to happen. Ramsay's assault is the third example of a phenomenon critic Sonia Saraiya pointed out last year: Game of Thrones, the show, adding instances of sexual assault that do not appear in Game of Thrones, the books. (In the original storyline, Sansa remains in the Vale and does not return to Winterfell at all, let alone marry Ramsay Bolton.) Unlike the Red Wedding, in other words, there's no reason David Benioff and D.B. Weiss had to bring one of the shows most interesting character evolutions right back to square one...

But my immediate feeling after Theon's face cut to black and the credits started rolling was that, sometime in the last two seasons, Game of Thrones crossed the line between showing what a cold, hard world its women live in and abusing them past the point of being useful to the narrative, or even interesting.

http://flavorwire.com/519349/game-of-thrones-season-5-episode-6-recap-unbowed-unbent-unbroken

Buddy TV -

This is not the first time a major female character has been raped in the course of the series. There was Daenerys on her wedding night to Khal Drogo all the way back in the first episode. Then, just last season Jaime raped Cersei in the Sept of Baelor. (If you want to be the type of person who puts an asterisk on the Jaime and Cersei scene, fine be that person. The director didn't intend for that scene to come off as a rape. The intention becomes irrelevant because that's how it appeared for the majority of the audience). In both cases, there was no ramifications for either act. Neither woman acted like they just had been raped or violated in any way. Dany even grew to love Khal Drogo...

Even if this silence from these women is an accurate depiction of the "time", it doesn't excuse Game of Thrones' depiction of its universe. There are plenty of ways to show that women aren't seen as powerful in this world without sexual violence. Game of Thrones has even done it in different areas of Cersei's storyline. Margaery is constantly trying to maneuver herself to a position of power and has to take unconventional avenues because of her gender. There is a difference between a horrifying act that says something disturbing about the world and just cheap shock factor. The end of "Unbowed, Unbent and Unbroken" was just that cheap and unabashed shock factor.

http://www.buddytv.com/articles/game-of-thrones/did-game-of-thrones-go-too-far-56568.aspx

io9 -

Guys, I think I reached the breaking point with the show today. This is by far the most frustrating, unsatisfying, and mean-spirited show ever. However strong the theme was, no matter what kind of framework it builds for a bombastic finale, this episode makes me want to quit the show. And all of it is encapsulated in that final scene. Boy, that final scene...

I also hope they're not using rape just as a cheap plot device. I guess we won't really know until the end of the season, but it's not hard to imagine that the writers are using it to say "Look how evil Ramsay is, making Theon watch Sansa getting raped! and Poor Sansa and Theon! Fans will cheer extra hard when Ramsay dies!" I really hope that's not the case, but the show had been utterly tone deaf regarding rape before.

http://observationdeck.io9.com/unsullied-eyes-game-of-thrones-5-06-5-17-15-1705174564

The Atlantic -

I've rarely, if ever, felt less enthusiastic about the show than I did tonight, when the screen faded to black to the sound of Sansa's groans...

Sansa is a girl whose body has been traded to further someone else's ambitions. She doesn't have a choice; she's never had a choice. Sansa has always been good at summoning her haughtiest attitude to protect herself, but it isn't working this time. She's all alone, and she's petrified. The North may remember, but the Stark loyalists aren't much good when she's being raped on her wedding night. In Kings Landing, Sansa at least had the Hound looking out for her at the beginning; having turned away Brienne, she has no personal protection...

Gratuitous sexual violence is bad enough, but gratuitous sexual violence in a ridiculous storyline that not only doesn't advance our understanding of key characters but rather makes us more confused - that may be the greatest sin of all.

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/05/game-of-thrones-roundtable-season-5-episode-six-unbowed-unbent-unbroken/393503/

Radio Times -

This week's episode ended with a particularly grim scene for Sansa Stark. It's bound to be controversial in a show that's been criticised for the prevalence of sexual violence against women, and especially for adding rape scenes where there were none in the source material...

But it's also hard not to feel the rape was a little gratuitous and emblematic of the show's troubling tendency to show sexual violence quite casually as a mere plot point (such as the sex scene between Jaime and Cersei in the book that became a rape scene in the show for no apparent reason). It did happen to Ramsay's unfortunate wife in the book but offstage, so to speak.

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2015-05-18/game-of-thrones-series-5-episode-6-review-a-dark-and-disturbing-wedding-in-winterfell

The Vine -

This scene never happened in the books, and never had to, except as a consequence of D.B. Weiss and David Benioff taking such unnecessary detours from the source material... The show, however, seems to take disturbing pleasure in putting the brutalisation of these women front and center. So you have to ask: if D.B. Weiss and David Benioff insist on deviating from the books, why are they doing it in a way that these female characters are repeatedly tortured and victimised? Westeros is a cruel and unforgiving place for women, true, but there are better ways of depicting that than revelling in these assaults.

http://www.thevine.com.au/emtertainment/news/that-shocking-scene-from-this-weeks-game-of-thrones-never-had-to-happen-20150518-300952/

Digital Spy -

What the sequence is, is gratuitous in its use of Sansa as a character. It's perhaps the biggest instance of a change from the source material becoming seriously problematic. In the books, Sansa never marries Ramsay: it's someone else, a character the audience is far less familiar with. Switching things up so that it's Sansa makes sense from a streamlining perspective, but it also places what feels like an unnecessary further burden on the character. It begins to lend Sophie Turner's corner of the show an unpleasant whiff of misery porn.

The big question is what has that sequence achieved, other than some great performances from the cast? Sansa hated the Boltons already. They killed her family; of course she hates them. And she's suffered emotional and physical abuse before, and emerged from it a stronger person. Did we really need rape added to the pile?

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tv/s151/game-of-thrones/recaps/a648069/game-of-thrones-recap-an-unpleasant-whiff-of-misery-porn.html

TV Overmind -

Beginning with Arya and ending with Sansa, Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken is an episode that explores that quest for inner truth; unfortunately, it does so by leaving the audience with another troublesome and particularly unnecessary depiction of sexual violence, throwing a wrench into any assumed progress the show's made in that department this season. And in that scene, that potential moment of strength for the character, Unbowed undoes it with a series of unpleasant shots and sounds, literally ending on the screams of Sansa as Ramsay forcibly rapes her, while making Reek watch from the doorway.

The moment Ramsay asks Reek to stay, Unbowed felt like it was going to that place again, forcing this story of sexual assault onto Sansa for nothing beyond shock factor. There's no reason Sansa needs to be subjected to this to depict her toughness, or Ramsays inherent ugliness; if the wedding bed scene is just existing to reinforce the assumed order of things in Winterfell, without offering any character development with it, why is it there? This is a rape scene for the sake of having a shocking rape scene, and it drags down the entire episode behind it.

http://www.tvovermind.com/reviews/game-of-thrones-season-5-episode-6-review-unbowed-unbent-unbroken/

Zap2It -

For five seasons, "Game of Thrones" has inflicted Sansa Stark (Sophie Turner) with some of the most horrifying storylines of the series. Halfway through Season 5, though, she got served the most disturbing yet when she was raped by her new husband, Ramsay Bolton (Iwan Rheon). Unsurprisingly, this is a turn that repulsed viewers, with some going as far as to say they're done watching the show... Why have her survive Joffrey (Jack Gleeson) if she was going to go through very similar -- and eventually worse -- treatment at the hands of a new tormentor? ...

The look in her eyes when she realizes what Ramsay means to do to her shows that she's learned better than to do anything but accept this. Still, being raped isn't something she can just bounce back from, no matter how she steeled herself for it. It's worth noting that this storyline is a deviation for Sansa. In George R.R. Martin's novels, a woman named Jeyne Poole marries Ramsay... In the show, no matter what comes next, Sansa will always be a victim of sexual abuse. No matter what strength she continues to have after this encounter, she will always have lost her virginity at the hands of a monster.

http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/game_of_thrones_season_5_rape_sansa_stark-2015-05

New York Daily News -

What happened to Sansa was everything I was afraid would happen when it was made clear she had to marry Ramsey Bolton a few episodes ago. Though what happened to Jeyne Pool in the book was actually more disturbing, watching Sansa be raped onscreen was positively sickening. In the book, Sansa was learning to wield and manipulate power in the Vale after a long period of victimization but the show pretty much added a new, and in my opinion, entirely unnecessary victimization to her story. More concerningly, after Jaime's rape of Cersei last season, it's yet another rape Benioff and Weiss decided to add to the show that was not in the text and at this point, we don't need anymore.

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/channel-surfer/game-thrones-recap-sand-snakes-attack-blog-entry-1.2226147

Decider -

Sansa's rape, then, seems like a another example of a strange trend that the show's showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss have employed into their series. When last season's rape scene stirred much controversy, AV Club's Sonia Saraiya pointed out the show and the books major tonal differences. These are questions many of us ask in the wake of Sansa's rape. Why? Why did this sexual assault, which did not take place in the book, need to happen on the show? Why did this character need to be broken down even more than she already has been? Why did we see it framed as a traumatic event for the man who witnessed it?

When do we draw the line between using sexual violence as a plot device to strengthen a woman's character (and to give her motivation for her later actions) and to display the inhumanity and evil nature of a man who perpetrates it - and as what it seems to truly be: a near-sadistic move on the showrunners to destroy these beloved characters? Game of Thrones has not dealt with sexual violence well in the past, considering that the rapes of both Daenerys and Cersei seemed to go forgotten - even by the victims themselves. Why, then, would the show push yet another envelope when its audience has suffered alongside its many female characters already?

http://decider.com/2015/05/18/game-of-thrones-too-much-rape/

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

I'm disappointed in Elio and Linda's take on the scene. Whether Sansa's rape was "realistic" in that situation is not the point. The point is that Ding & Dong dismantled several key storylines, demolished character development, and forced the characters to behave illogically and irrationally all so that Sansa could be raped for shock value. The point is that they gutted the Winterfell storyline of everything except fArya/Ramsay/Theon. The point is that they replaced the arc of a primary protagonist with the subplot of a tertiary character.

You know what wasn't realistic? Sansa being in that position at all, that's what.

What Ding & Dong did was a complete and utter betrayal and butchery of the original story. It deserves unanimous condemnation from anyone who claims to be a fan of the books. The fact that this is a disputed point is extremely discouraging.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

I don't want to defend Ding and Dong (I'm one of their harshest critics) but I have an issue with those criticize that the show focuses on Theon's pain rather than Sansa's. I don't think this was done because they wanted to make it about Theon (a male character) but because he represented US, the audience who knows Sansa since she was a little girl in Winterfell.

Again, I'm not defending the scene, but I don't have a problem with the camera focusing on Theon.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I'm disappointed in Elio and Linda's take on the scene. Whether Sansa's rape was "realistic" in that situation is not the point. The point is that Ding & Dong dismantled several key storylines, demolished character development, and forced the characters to behave illogically and irrationally all so that Sansa could be raped for shock value. The point is that they gutted the Winterfell storyline of everything except fArya/Ramsay/Theon. The point is that they replaced the arc of a primary protagonist with the subplot of a tertiary character.

You know what wasn't realistic? Sansa being in that position at all, that's what.

What Ding & Dong did was a complete and utter betrayal and butchery of the original story. It deserves unanimous condemnation from anyone who claims to be a fan of the books. The fact that this is a disputed point is extremely discouraging.

Elio and Linda both made it clear that they hate the idea of Sansa in Winterfell, precisely because once she's there this is the only way this thing can play out. They don't want to rehash that because their previous reviews made it abundantly clear that they do no like the entire change to get get Sansa there.

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

Elio and Linda both made it clear that they hate the idea of Sansa in Winterfell, precisely because once she's there this is the only way this thing can play out. They don't want to rehash that because their previous reviews made it abundantly clear that they do no like the entire change to get get Sansa there.

I think now, in the wake of the appalling consummation of all Ding & Dong's shoddy contrivances, is the time to come down with full force, not quibble and nitpick about details. Take a stand, for Pete's sake.

[Rohlin_the_Wretched]

@bloodsteel

You have brought up another angle all the haters are missing.

*Spoiler Alert for non-book readers*

In the book, Reek hears Bran calling him Theon in the godswood, this brings back his sanity and compels him to help Mance rescue Jeyne Poole. I very sincerely doubt we are going to see Bran this season, so how is Sansa going to escape her situation? Some people think she won't and Ramsay will slit her throat and thus bringing Lady Stoneheart into play. Personally, I think if they were going to introduce Lady Stoneheart, she would already be in play. So Sansa is going to need help escaping and that leaves Reek / Theon. I don't really know anything more shocking for Theon than having to watch a girl he considered a sister get raped by the man that tortured him. This was for his character arc so he had a reason to return to himself and remember who he was before Ramsay broke him.

I think a lot of people are too emotionally invested in Sansa to see that this scene wasn't gratuitous sexual violence, but a necessary plot point to further Theon's arc and it teaches a lesson to Sansa, you can only trust yourself. She was put into this situation because she is still being used by LF and she once again let him sucker her. So everyone claiming this was a set back in her character development, how about letting LF take her there in the first place and not asking one meaningful question before they arrived? Doesn't sound like the strong woman everyone is convinced she has become.

[Ran]

Le Cygne,

And then Benioff and Weiss have Cersei happily sleep with Jaime at the end of the season. Listen to the actors, watch the bits that show Cersei's active participation (_she_ kisses him, _she_ pulls him toward her, etc.), and you get a much more complicated picture. Note that Benioff never called it rape. He indicates it's ugly, yes, but when aligned with everything else he really means that it's a dark. twisted sexual consummation that both characters ultimately desire. Doubtless his view of their sexual relationship is marked by the fact that it is illict, incestuous, and generally secretive -- that has to lead to some rather screwy dynamics.

As to the rest, I'll cite Marcotte's piece again, which tackles the vast majority of those reactions.

There's nothing wrong with waiting and seeing, folks, before making up your mind. Doing otherwise is like calling a horse race because in the first lengths a certain horse took the lead.

[Robb_Warged]

Something like this is going to happen to Sansa in TWOW too. Remember her "controversial chapter"? I actually think in Winds she may just willingly give herself to Baelish. Either way, I feel essentially what we got in 5x06 will happen to her in Winds

Done with this dying story

[1234567]

Something like this is going to happen to Sansa in TWOW too. Remember her "controversial chapter"? I actually think in Winds she may just willingly give herself to Baelish. Either way, I feel essentially what we got in 5x06 will happen to her in Winds

Done with this dying story

The controversial chapter is up on his website. It is not that controversial though.

[Robb_Warged]

The controversial chapter is up on his website. It is not that controversial though.

When was it ever said that the recently released preview Sansa chapter was the controversial one?

If that was indeed the controversial one, and GRRM isn't pulling a 5x06 in TWOW or ADOS then that makes me even angrier that D&D did this

They have changed a MILLION things from AFFC and ADWD in season 5's loose adaptation of those stories. They could have had Theon make his rescue move whenever they wanted to. Or have had Sansa hulk out and actually circumvent viewer expectations by having her castrate Ramsay or kill him or something. That would have been unexpected.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

When was it ever said that the recently released preview Sansa chapter was the controversial one?

If that was indeed the controversial one, and GRRM isn't pulling a 5x06 in TWOW or ADOS then that makes me even angrier that D&D did this

They have changed a MILLION things from AFFC and ADWD in season 5's loose adaptation of those stories. They could have had Theon make his rescue move whenever they wanted to. Or have had Sansa hulk out and actually circumvent viewer expectations by having her castrate him or kill him or something. That would have been unexpected.

Ran said it was the chapter he was talking about. He's also said wait and see how things play out. There are 2 more books and 2 more seasons. Much can happen. More controversy. Less controversy. We'll see in time.

[Robb_Warged]

Ran said it was the chapter he was talking about. He's also said wait and see how things play out. There are 2 more books and 2 more seasons. Much can happen. More controversy. Less controversy. We'll see in time.

That is extremely interesting. I never knew that. So what was so controversial about the chapter? I never read it. The Theon chapter is the only TWOW preview chapter I've read

Thanks for the info Pounce and Rapsie