What if Ned Stark had been Robert's first Hand of the King?

[Ser Frasier of House Crane]

If Robert had declared Ned his Hand of the King instead of Jon Arryn after the rebellion, do you think things would've worked out better or worse? Do you think Ned would've approved to the match to Cersei?

[Balerion the kitten]

No. Ned has always distrusted the lannisters since he saw jaime on the throne. He wanted to send jaime to the wall.

And yeah it would work out better. All this mess is due to Cersei's children being bastards. If Robert did have a trueborn son (or daughter) they might not have turned out like joffrey. And the lannisters in general are too greedy, they were given too much and continually wanted more. Even now.

So basically what I'm saying is Jon arryn's decisions were good in a short term sense but had devastating consequences. Ned would have avoided those choices.

[Lord Lannister]

I couldn't see Ned lasting any more than a year as Hand of the King even in this scenario. Not to say he'd be killed/executed like he was in the novels, just that he'd get fed up with Robert's excesses and resign.

[LordPathera]

No. Ned has always distrusted the lannisters since he saw jaime on the throne. He wanted to send jaime to the wall.

And yeah it would work out better. All this mess is due to Cersei's children being bastards. If Robert did have a trueborn son (or daughter) they might not have turned out like joffrey. And the lannisters in general are too greedy, they were given too much and continually wanted more. Even now.

So basically what I'm saying is Jon arryn's decisions were good in a short term sense but had devastating consequences. Ned would have avoided those choices.

In addition, Ned would be more willing to challenge Robert on his lack of attendance and pressure him into taking some part in ruling the realm.

Jon Arryn appeared to have "coddled" Robert or at very least let Robert do whatever he wanted even if it harmed the realm.

But who would Robert marry? Ned would not trust the Lannisters, so Cersei's out of the question and Dorne hates Robert which leaves Arianne off limits. Perhaps Robert remains a "Bachelor King" and legitimizes one of his bastards or has Stannis succeed him as king.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

. And the lannisters in general are too greedy, they were given too much and continually wanted more.

Can you expand on this?

How were they too greedy? What exactly were they given too much of?

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

Robert would have been a better king. Ned would have forced Robert to be more attentive before he became completely fed up with it. Robert may still have married Cersei because it was a sound political marriage.

[LordPathera]

Can you expand on this?

How were they too greedy? What exactly were they given too much of?

From the perspective of a rebel, giving the Lannisters so much influence and power was too much.

They'd only joined the Rebellion after Robert beat Rhaegar at the Trident and ensured his victory. At that point, all that was necessary was to march on King's Landing and force the Mad King to surrender his crown.

In comes Tywin Lannister to sour this victory by betraying the Mad King; apparently having the Mad King killed by a man sworn to protect him; sacking King's Landing and murdering/raping/plundering it's people; and raping/murdering Elia Martell after butchering her children. All for the sole purpose of getting on Robert's good side since he'd only now decided to choose sides.

By all accounts, Tywin shouldn't be able to complain about merely being able to keep his lands and titles. But then Tywin's daughter gets to become queen? Effectively granting House Lannister a lion's share of the Rebellion's victory even though their participation was minimal and very obviously self-serving?

The only reason that Robert wasn't suspectful was because he had a hate boner for Rhaegar and his kin. Thus, he saw no problem with effectively skimping all of his other supporters in favor of a late-comer.

[Balerion the kitten]

Can you expand on this?

How were they too greedy? What exactly were they given too much of?

Power.

Robert was surrounded by lannisters 24/7. He was a complete push over. Cersei even suggested that he would have named jaime hand if he didn't go to winterfell for ned, the only reason she didn't insist was because she thought he would decline.

Tywin basically had the kingdoms in his pockets. Ned even thought (while attempting to leave KL) that Roberts councillors of fools and lickspittles would put them in so much debt they would have to give the kingdom to Tywin.

They (or just cersei, although I doubt it) were trying to kill Robert so joffrey could be crowned.

The fact that the crowned prince joffrey had taken both sigils as his personal one.

[naseridrl]

In addition, Ned would be more willing to challenge Robert on his lack of attendance and pressure him into taking some part in ruling the realm.

Jon Arryn appeared to have "coddled" Robert or at very least let Robert do whatever he wanted even if it harmed the realm.

But who would Robert marry? Ned would not trust the Lannisters, so Cersei's out of the question and Dorne hates Robert which leaves Arianne off limits. Perhaps Robert remains a "Bachelor King" and legitimizes one of his bastards or has Stannis succeed him as king.

Janna Tyrell maybe, or Mina? To move beyond the siege and bind the Targ loyalists to the crown.

[Universal Sword Donor]

From the perspective of a rebel, giving the Lannisters so much influence and power was too much.

They'd only joined the Rebellion after Robert beat Rhaegar at the Trident and ensured his victory. At that point, all that was necessary was to march on King's Landing and force the Mad King to surrender his crown.

In comes Tywin Lannister to sour this victory by betraying the Mad King; apparently having the Mad King killed by a man sworn to protect him; sacking King's Landing and murdering/raping/plundering it's people; and raping/murdering Elia Martell after butchering her children. All for the sole purpose of getting on Robert's good side since he'd only now decided to choose sides.

By all accounts, Tywin shouldn't be able to complain about merely being able to keep his lands and titles. But then Tywin's daughter gets to become queen? Effectively granting House Lannister a lion's share of the Rebellion's victory even though their participation was minimal and very obviously self-serving?

The only reason that Robert wasn't suspectful was because he had a hate boner for Rhaegar and his kin. Thus, he saw no problem with effectively skimping all of his other supporters in favor of a late-comer.

The proper reward for Tywin would have been the status quo + letting Jaime out of the KG. Tywin gets his heir back. Robert doesn't have a Kingslayer in his KG and Cersei can marry someone else. Honestly Tywin himself said that the Lannisters needed to make it clear that they had forsaken the Targs forever. Robert had two heirs and was 23. He could have waited to marry and he definitely didn't need *more* support from the Lannisters as he already clearly had it.

The only real options for him to marry at the time were Cersei or possibly some Tyrell daughters.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Edit: Double posted...and I haven't even been drinking

[thelittledragonthatcould]

From the perspective of a rebel, giving the Lannisters so much influence and power was too much.

I was asking what powers and influences the Lannisters got?

It wasnt Tywin who suggested that his daughter be Queen, that was Jon Arryn. It wasn't Tywin who wanted his son part of the Kingsguard, that was Robert.

The Small Council was made up of Robert, Renly, Stannis and Barristan from the Stormlands. Jon and Littlefinger from the Vale, Pycelle from the Citadel and Varys from Essos.

At the level below the Small Council that was controlled by men Littlefinger had control of.

"And in the process, he moved his own men into place. The Keepers of the Keys were his, all four. The King's Counter and the King's Scales were men he named. The officers in charge of all three mints. Harbormasters, tax farmers, customs sergeants, wool factors, toll collectors, pursers, wine factors; nine of every ten belonged to Littlefinger."

Considering the Lannisters were the most riches family in the land even before Robert took over I'm not really sure you can say they dominated court. They Westerlands was certainly behind the Stromlands and Vale in terms of influence and power.

Robert was surrounded by lannisters 24/7.

How does that make greedy?

What were they given and what were they demanding?

Did Tywin demand a small council position? Did he demand more land? More power? For Robert to punish his enemies?

It was Jon Arryn who told Robert to marry Cersei, not Tywin.

He was a complete push over.

No. He was a poor King who did what he wanted. He was not a poor pushover as both Jon and Ned would testify too..

Cersei even suggested that he would have named jaime hand if he didn't go to winterfell for ned,

So Cersei, the Kings wife, suggested something and was told no and this is evidence that the Lannisters had too much power?

Really?

the only reason she didn't insist was because she thought he would decline.

When exactly did this happen? Are you sure its not from the TV show?

Tywin basically had the kingdoms in his pockets.

How so?

What was he making the kingdom do?

Ned even thought (while attempting to leave KL) that Roberts councillors of fools and lickspittles would put them in so much debt they would have to give the kingdom to Tywin.

Citation?

The fact that the crowned prince joffrey had taken both sigils as his personal one.

How is this evidence of the Lannisters being greedy?

[Lazy Sparrow]

Things would have been so different I don't think we can even predict what it would have been like. The wedding to Cercei would not likely have happened, as others have said, and maybe not the appointment of Littlefinger to the Small Council, but we've seen what Ned's style of rule leads to in a place like King's Landing.

[Frey Kings]

Let's be honest, Ned Stark wasn't the brightest tool in the shed. They don't mix well, It'll be chaotic, actually it'll be more exciting for the book readers if this is how it starts out... heh

The only question I have is how did Robert bankrupt the treasury with Jon Arryn as hand? I guess Jon Arryn was a stand up guy... I don't know if littlefinger was stealing, but it appears to be more than they what they bring in from taxes yearly. I just can't imagine someone spending 10x to what they bring in yearly. Its nearly impossible unless you're "making it rain" over the cliff and into the ocean. That's a lot of money. And they still continue with money issues with the 1st and 2nd richest families in charge now.

[Darksnider05]

Let's be honest, Ned Stark wasn't the brightest tool in the shed. They don't mix well, It'll be chaotic, actually it'll be more exciting for the book readers if this is how it starts out... heh

The only question I have is how did Robert bankrupt the treasury with Jon Arryn as hand? I guess Jon Arryn was a stand up guy... I don't know if littlefinger was stealing, but it appears to be more than they what they bring in from taxes yearly. I just can't imagine someone spending 10x to what they bring in yearly. Its nearly impossible unless you're "making it rain" over the cliff and into the ocean. That's a lot of money. And they still continue with money issues with the 1st and 2nd richest families in charge now.

This is hilarious you have to completely ignore the fact that Eddard came into that situation blind. What he did in that short period of time against a stacked deck was impressive.

Your talking about him building his own Small council and Gold Cloaks. Yeah that's a completely different situation.

[Lady Catherine]

In addition, Ned would be more willing to challenge Robert on his lack of attendance and pressure him into taking some part in ruling the realm.

Jon Arryn appeared to have "coddled" Robert or at very least let Robert do whatever he wanted even if it harmed the realm.

But who would Robert marry? Ned would not trust the Lannisters, so Cersei's out of the question and Dorne hates Robert which leaves Arianne off limits. Perhaps Robert remains a "Bachelor King" and legitimizes one of his bastards or has Stannis succeed him as king.

Perhaps, if Ned was Hand and had punished (somehow) Tywin for ordering the deaths of Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon, Dorne could've accepted a marriage to Robert? I know that Arianne was too young, but Robert was only on his twenties at the time and had two living brothers. He could wait.

[Lady Catherine]

Sorry, double post!

[Frey Kings]

This is hilarious you have to completely ignore the fact that Eddard came into that situation blind. What he did in that short period of time against a stacked deck was impressive.

Your talking about him building his own Small council and Gold Cloaks. Yeah that's a completely different situation.

He knew what people were. He knew how Robert Baratheon was. He(Everyone) knew how the Lannisters were. He just disappeared from his duties to the realm and ran off. To say that he came into the situation blindly is calling a goose a duck. I understand that he was same sort of long life dilemma but at least wander around your lands and see the people that kept you and your family warm and cozy.

[ThePosterThatWasPromised]

Ned would have concelled Robert properly. To be 100% honest there was absolutely no reason to marry Cersei, Jon Arryn was completely wrong on that one. The Lannisters had to prove to Robert that they had forsaken the Targs forever, as Tywin said. If one actually was trying to "ensure political stability" you should have brokered a marriage to House Tyrell or House Martell - since Arianne Martell was only about 5 at the time (and Doran probably wouldn't consent anyway given the way Elia died), the best choice would probably have been Mina or Janna Tyrell (I'm assuming they're about the right age, Since Mace was born later than 256, and Robert in 262, his sisters were quite likely born right around then).

At the very least, Ned would have also insisted at Jaime's dismissal from the Kingsguard, which Robert would have agreed to and Tywin would have loved. Ned would quite likely have also ensured that the Mountain's head be delivered forthwith to Dorne.

I honestly think it all could have been avoided if only Robert picked Ned. Ooh welll....

[ThePosterThatWasPromised]

Double post...