What if Ned Stark had been Robert's first Hand of the King?

[hodorisfaclessman]

Marriage to a Tyrell. Yet another great house tied to Robert's cause. All Tywin could do is sulk at the Rock. Demand the heads of Gregor and Amory Lorch to be sent to Dorne. Not sure if he'd dole out a punishment for Tywin though. Sending Jaime to the wall would be enough. Remove Pycelle and Varys from the Small Council. He doesn't like either of them and I think he and Stannis would agree on many of the same things like this. Robert may not have listened to Stannis but he would listen to Ned. No Littlefinger on the Small Council either. But honestly Ned would have hated the job and quit a few years after if he couldn't stop Robert's recklessness. Even so, so much damage could have been prevented. The only thing I would say is where does Jon Snow go.

was there a tyrell girl of age ? the issue is whos there and available

i dont even think arianne of dorne is of age yet either at that stage.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Nope Tywin wanted his son back that would of been his reward and his punishment. Well Gregor and his men could of died for simply over stepping and besmirching the good Lannister name.

That would of been the end of it instead of random Cersei marriage.

How is it a random marriage? Cersei was from one of the most powerful families in the realm. She was the right age and single.

Who would have been a better option for the young Robert?

[Starkfaithful85]

The interesting part would be what Ned would have advised regarding Tywin and the murder of children

[Ser RoddyRuinuous]

Jaime, Littlefinger and Varys would have had to find some warm black clothing. Bye bye.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Jaime, Littlefinger and Varys would have had to find some warm black clothing. Bye bye.

Why would Littlefinger?

He doesn't join the Small Counil till much later and only after the Hand, Jon Arryn, invites him to court.

[The Wolves]

Why would Littlefinger?

He doesn't join the Small Counil till much later and only after the Hand, Jon Arryn, invites him to court.

This is true, Littlefinger would have never seen court with Ned as Roberts's first Hand.

[Blackfish Tully]

Let's be honest, Ned Stark wasn't the brightest tool in the shed. They don't mix well, It'll be chaotic, actually it'll be more exciting for the book readers if this is how it starts out... heh

The only question I have is how did Robert bankrupt the treasury with Jon Arryn as hand? I guess Jon Arryn was a stand up guy... I don't know if littlefinger was stealing, but it appears to be more than they what they bring in from taxes yearly. I just can't imagine someone spending 10x to what they bring in yearly. Its nearly impossible unless you're "making it rain" over the cliff and into the ocean. That's a lot of money. And they still continue with money issues with the 1st and 2nd richest families in charge now.

You are completely missing what Littlefinger did to the Iron Throne's finances . The Iron Throne was not bankrupt while Littlefinger was the Master of Coin . Littlefinger turned the Iron Throne into a commercial enterprise and an investment bank and had the Iron Throne invested in commodities all over the world. It was only when war broke out (which Littlefinger started) that the Iron Throne's finances went all to hell which was Littlefinger's plan all along . This quote from Tyrion sums up it all up pretty well.

Ten years ago, Jon Arryn had given him minor sinecure in customs, where Lord Petyr had soon distinguished himself by bringing in three times as much as any of the king's other collectors. King Robert had been a prodigious spender. A man like Petyr Baelish, who had a gift for rubbing two golden dragons together to breed a third, was invaluable to his Hand. Littlefinger's rise had been arrow-swift. Within three years of his coming to court he was master of coin and a member of thesmall council, and today the crown's revenues were ten times what they had under his predecessor... through the crown's debt had grown vast as well. A master juggler was Petyr Baelish.

Oh, he was clever. He did not simply collect the gold and lock it in a treasure vault, no. He paid the king's debts in promises, and put the king's gold to work. He bought wagons, shops, ships, houses. He bought grain when it was plentiful and sold bread when it was scarce. He bought wool from the north and linen from the south and lace from Lys, stored it, moved it, dyed it, sold it. The golden dragons bred and multiplied, and Littlefinger lent them out and brought them home with hatchlings.

[AdmiraloftheDothrakiSea]

How is it a random marriage? Cersei was from one of the most powerful families in the realm. She was the right age and single.

Who would have been a better option for the young Robert?

Marry one of Mace's sisters if they aren't married already. Or a Redwyne or a Hightower. If you're marrying into one of these Reach families you're creating an alliance with all of the Reach (since all the houses in the Reach married into one another). The power of the Reach outweighs the power of the Lannisters. What can Tywin do if five of the great houses are in an alliance and Dorne hates him for what he did. Ally with the Iron Islands to launch his own rebellion? Good luck with that. Tywin doesn't have enough political influence if Robert allies with the Reach.

Why should Tywin deserve any reward? He joined their cause after they'd won on the Trident, when the rebels' victory was assured. It's similar to how Hoster Tully resented Frey for sending forces after the battle of the Trident. Ok so Robert isn't Tywin's overlord but why should he be rewarded for joining them when their victory was already assured and besmirching the virtue of their cause. When he orders the deaths of Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys which were conducted very brutally then it taints the honors of the real successes behind the rebellion; Ned Stark, Jon Arryn and Robert Baratheon.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Marry one of Mace's sisters if they aren't married already.

Mace has two sisters. Mina was definitely married as she had all three of her children before Robert was married. Considering Olenna would have been in her mid 50's during the War it is more than likely that all three of her children would have been married.

Janna Tyrell ended up marrying Ser Jon Fossoway. That is quite the difference to the King of Westeros. The daughter of Tywin Lannister would have been the better match.

Or a Redwyne or a Hightower. If you're marrying into one of these Reach families you're creating an alliance with all of the Reach (since all the houses in the Reach married into one another).

That sure helped the Florents. The Tarlys, Hightowers and Cranes are all married into the Florents in the current series, that has not saved them.

The power of the Reach outweighs the power of the Lannisters. What can Tywin do if five of the great houses are in an alliance and Dorne hates him for what he did. Ally with the Iron Islands to launch his own rebellion? Good luck with that.

Sure, the Reach can raise a bigger army while the Westelands is richer. However Tywin Lannister has more control over the Westerlands than Mace Tyrell does over the Reach. That was true in the present series and would have been even more so after Roberts Rebellion.

Tywin guarantees the absolute loyalty of more Houses.

Tywin doesn't have enough political influence if Robert allies with the Reach.

Tywin is only in his early 40's. If he marries into a powerful Reach family and marries Cersei into another then there is a clear divide in the kingdom. He also has the wealth to hire the Golden Company or other powerful sellsword companies.

Tywin had been Hand for 20 years. The previous King pissed him off and within a year of quitting the Handship the kingdom was in a shambles. Robert and Jon Arryn would have been wise to seek his support for the new Baratheon dynasty.

Why should Tywin deserve any reward?

Why should the Reach Lords you are suggesting?

The fought against Robert and deserve a reward, Tywin takes the capital and deserves nothing!?

He joined their cause after they'd won on the Trident, when the rebels' victory was assured.

No, it wasn't.

Had Tywin joined the Crown then the war could have been prolonged with the thousands of survivors from the Trident and the strength of the Westerlands and Reach.

Had Tywin done nothing Robert still has to take Kings Landing and capture the King and Rhaegars children should he have escaped. Should the Reach Lords at Storms End have intervened the Crown may have even won. Tywin ended the war for Robert.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

If Ned was the Hand he would had died and most likely Robert would had died too when Tywin would had become the King or something close.

[AdmiraloftheDothrakiSea]

Mace has two sisters. Mina was definitely married as she had all three of her children before Robert was married. Considering Olenna would have been in her mid 50's during the War it is more than likely that all three of her children would have been married.

Janna Tyrell ended up marrying Ser Jon Fossoway. That is quite the difference to the King of Westeros. The daughter of Tywin Lannister would have been the better match.

That sure helped the Florents. The Tarlys, Hightowers and Cranes are all married into the Florents in the current series, that has not saved them.

Sure, the Reach can raise a bigger army while the Westelands is richer. However Tywin Lannister has more control over the Westerlands than Mace Tyrell does over the Reach. That was true in the present series and would have been even more so after Roberts Rebellion.

Tywin guarantees the absolute loyalty of more Houses.

Tywin is only in his early 40's. If he marries into a powerful Reach family and marries Cersei into another then there is a clear divide in the kingdom. He also has the wealth to hire the Golden Company or other powerful sellsword companies.

Why should the Reach Lords you are suggesting?

The fought against Robert and deserve a reward, Tywin takes the capital and deserves nothing!?

Had Tywin joined the Crown then the war could have been prolonged with the thousands of survivors from the Trident and the strength of the Westerlands and Reach.

Had Tywin done nothing Robert still has to take Kings Landing and capture the King and Rhaegars children should he have escaped. Should the Reach Lords at Storms End have intervened the Crown may have even won. Tywin ended the war for Robert.

Maybe the Fossoways were massively rewarded for their loyalty. It still doesn't diminish the fact that the sister of the Warden of the South is a worthy match to the king. It's a different situation to the Florents. Stannis is rumoured to worship a foreign god and burns people alive. There's also rumours that he used magic to assassinate his brother. Anyone who was strongly tied to his cause would be doomed in that situation. Note i said strongly. Who's to say that Mace doesn't have as much loyalty from his vassals? Where is the evidence in the text? Their bannermen are yet to go against them. Mace and Olenna are smart. They've created the right alliances so that the Reach stays peaceful. Gold is only powerful when it can definitely provide strength. The Reach is Westeros' breadbasket and biggest economic hub. The Reach also has one of the greatest naval powers in Westeros in addition to the largest land force. Sure Tywin could try to bring the Golden Company over but where would they land? Stannis is the Master of Ships and he could prevent them from landing on the east coast (am I wrong here). They could try travelling to the west to land in Lannisport to join with Tywin but they could be easily beaten by the Redwyne force. The Golden Company would have to hire a fleet large enough and able enough to withstand two naval battles. Are you forgetting that the West is cornered by the Reach and the Riverlands? How does Tywin hope to overcome that. An alliance to Tywin is beneficial but not necessary. If you already have three regions under your alliance (Stormlands, North and Riverlands) you only need one more kingdom to secure it. The Reach is more beneficial that the West.

Why does Tywin deserve not to be rewarded? Because firstly he joined the rebels' cause when their victory was assured. The only reason there were people loyal to the Throne was because they believed in Rhaegar and that he would make changes after the war and deal with Aerys. With Rhaegar gone who are they going to side with? The baby Aegon? The young Viserys who is supposed to already display some possible signs of Targ madness? The rebels' cause was based on deposing a cruel king who decided to kill members of great houses and their fathers for no good reason. The trial by combat was unfair. He burned the Warden of the North alive for no good reason. He called for the deaths of two lord paramounts (Ned and Robert) for no good reason. His son the Crown Prince managed to piss off three great houses with one action. The Targs are an irresponsible bunch of people who brought so much death and misery to Westeros in their reign. The rebels' cause was just. But Tywin didn't join the Rebels' cause because of that. He joined out of spite. He ordered brutal deaths because he felt slighted. Was he slighted? Yes he was? But he takes it out on two innocent babies and a woman. He's no better than Aerys when he sacks Kings Landing. The rebels had an honorable cause and Tywin taints it. It brings resentment towards Robert, Ned and Jon Arryn from the Martells for Tywin's actions.

Yes the Reach stayed loyal to the Crown to the end and it could be argued they shouldn't be rewarded for that. But do they do anything like Tywin? No. If anything they assured the rebels their victory by staying invested during the entire war at Storm's end. The Reach lords had a whole year to intervene but they didn't. Tywin couldn't have stopped the rebels. He raised 12000 fresh levies whilst the rebels were battle hardened and defeated an army better than them. They also had commanders who many would agree are superior to Tywin. Everyone knows the Crown lost as soon as Rhaegar was killed. Aegon and Rhaenys were babies.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Maybe the Fossoways were massively rewarded for their loyalty. It still doesn't diminish the fact that the sister of the Warden of the South is a worthy match to the king.

Sure, but the daughter of the Warden of the West is better. Especially when that daughter is younger and more beautiful.

Their bannermen are yet to go against them.

The Florents, the Fossoways, Mullendores, Varners all fought for Stannis rather than obey their Mace.

They've created the right alliances so that the Reach stays peaceful.

er, nope. The Reach stays peaceful because it is in everyone best interests and the crown appointed the Tyrells.

Gold is only powerful when it can definitely provide strength. The Reach is Westeros' breadbasket and biggest economic hub.

It might provide more food but you are going to have to provide evidence that its the economic hub of Westeros.

. The Reach is more beneficial that the West.

Sure, agree with this. But the Tyrells position in the Reach is first amongst equals while the Lannisters under Tywin have absolute authority in the Westerlands. And that is only if Janna is still single, she most likely is already married like both her siblings.

Marrying a noble lady from the Reach does not guarantee that that the whole Reach supports you. We have evidence of this during the Dance of the Dragons as despite a Hightower Queen the Reach was split with Houses such as the Rowans, Tarlys and Beesburys fighting for the Blacks.

A Lannister bride guarantees the entire West. A Reach bride does not guarantee the entire Reach.

Why does Tywin deserve not to be rewarded? Because firstly he joined the rebels' cause when their victory was assured.

But it wasn't.

According to Ned "The remnants of Rhaegar's army fled back to King's Landing. We followed. Aerys was in the Red Keep with several thousand loyalists. I expected to find the gates closed to us." With the Master of Ships Lucerys Velaryon still controlling the Royal Navy and the Reach army nearby at Strorms End the war was far from over and could have still gone either way.

If Tywin decided to join the Royalists then they would have had the clear advantage with both the Reach and Westerland armies largely untouched from the war that had lasted over a year.

Alternatively Tywin could have deposed Aerys and crowned Aegon and ruled through him.

Tywin siding with the Rebels ended the war and handed Robert victory.

The only reason there were people loyal to the Throne was because they believed in Rhaegar and that he would make changes after the war and deal with Aerys.

This is demonstrably false. That was a private discussion between Jaime and Rhaegar. Aerys had loyalists but more importantly the Targaryen dynasty had loyalists.

The rebels had an honorable cause and Tywin taints it. It brings resentment towards Robert, Ned and Jon Arryn from the Martells for Tywin's actions.

Dorne would have been pissed off regardless. Those kids were dead, Robert would have had no choice but to kill them.

[AdmiraloftheDothrakiSea]

I'm sick to death of arguing my case so this will be my last post. The daughter of the Warden of the West has an equal social rank to the sister of the Warden of the South. They are both direct kin. We don't know how Janna Tyrell looks. Besides looks isn't the first reason to choose who to marry in Westeros.

You do make a fair point about the houses that supported Stannis. I missed that. What evidence do you need? Oldtown is the biggest city in Westeros and the most thriving port rivaled only by Kings Landing. Right now there are still remnants of Stannis' fleet in the Blackwater. Kings Landing port is still not fit to be open. In addition to Oldtown the Arbor has some of the best wines in the world, providing sufficient income that supports the Realm. Lannisport itself relies on Oldtown for trade. In addition, the Reach has the power to control all trade being directed through the Western coast of Westeros. Particularly since they have a strong naval presence. Tywin can't match that if the Redwynes wanted to cause a blockade. Look at what Stannis does to Kings Landing in ACOK. His fleet controls the Narrow Sea and blocks ships from going to Kings Landing. Tell me that the Reach isn't Westeros' economic hub.

[jlk7e]

It is not at all clear to me that either of Mace's sisters would be available. Mina's sons seem to be *at least* Robb's age, if not older - they're certainly older than Sansa. It seems likely she married her first cousin Paxter Redwyne some time before the Rebellion. Janna might be unmarried, I suppose, but that's not at all certain, either.

And, I mean, yes, Stannis is around to be heir, but I'm not sure about this idea that producing an heir isn't an important priority. Of course it is. That's always important. And it's important to cement good relations with one of the Great Houses as soon as possible. There aren't any available Arryns, Starks, or Tullys (too bad Hoster insisted on the Arryn marriage for Lysa - he could probably have put her on the throne if he'd bided his time and satisfied himself with the Stark marriage). Arianne Martell is ten years away from being marriageable. Besides Cersei, there's *maybe* a Tyrell sister.

Jon Arryn's general policy, though, seems to have been anti-Tyrell. Neither the Tyrells nor any obvious Tyrell allies hold any positions of power during Robert's reign. Stannis is married off to a Florent girl, presumably to help build up the Florents as a counterweight to the Tyrells in the Reach. (Note that the Florents have close familial ties to both the Hightowers and the Tarlys - that's a good starting point for an anti-Tyrell alliance). Presumably he distrusts the Tyrells and think they're Targaryen loyalists. In the early years of the reign, in particular, there must have still been some fear of renewed loyalist uprisings on behalf of Viserys. As such, freezing out suspected Targaryen loyalists and consolidating support around the 4 rebellious houses + the Lannisters (who have obviously burned their bridges with the Targaryens most thoroughly) makes sense. And Cersei is the only eligible bride from those houses.

The marriage was obviously disastrous, but I don't think it was disastrous in a way that was predictable when Arryn arranged it. How was he supposed to predict that Cersei would hate Robert so much that she'd cuckold him repeatedly with her own brother? That's just one of those things nobody can really be expected to predict. And, as noted, while the Lannisters have considerable power, their influence in the capital appears to be pretty limited for as long as Jon Arryn is alive. We don't actually know the composition of the Small Council at the beginning of the reign - we likely have Arryn, Selmy, Varys, Pycelle, and Stannis, but we don't know who's Master of Laws or Master of Coin. Of the ones we know, though, only Pycelle (the one Arryn is stuck with) has any fondness for the Lannisters, and we've certainly been given no sign of Lannister cronies holding those last two positions at any point. So we have a Small Council dominated by Stormlanders and Valemen, apparently. It seems to me that the Lannister bid for power really only happens after Jon Arryn's death and Stannis's departure, when suddenly a huge vacuum has opened up.

The real error of Arryn's tenure was trusting Littlefinger, who beggared the realm and then murdered him.

At any rate, to get back to the original question, I don't think Ned would take the position. His relationship with Robert was greatly strained by the murder of Elia and her children, he's mourning the loss of his sister (and brother and father), and he has a young wife and child to get back to and a Kingdom he's barely spent any time in to rule. Jon Arryn has ruled the Vale long enough that he has trusted associates who can rule in his name (Nestor Royce and Brynden Tully, notably). Who does Ned have? Catelyn's never even been to the North, so he can't leave her in charge. Does he just leave an adolescent Benjen to run things indefinitely? Given his own dubious connections to the North, I think it's really important for Ned to return to Winterfell and take charge.

[jlk7e]

I'm sick to death of arguing my case so this will be my last post. The daughter of the Warden of the West has an equal social rank to the sister of the Warden of the South. They are both direct kin. We don't know how Janna Tyrell looks. Besides looks isn't the first reason to choose who to marry in Westeros.

You do make a fair point about the houses that supported Stannis. I missed that. What evidence do you need? Oldtown is the biggest city in Westeros and the most thriving port rivaled only by Kings Landing. Right now there are still remnants of Stannis' fleet in the Blackwater. Kings Landing port is still not fit to be open. In addition to Oldtown the Arbor has some of the best wines in the world, providing sufficient income that supports the Realm. Lannisport itself relies on Oldtown for trade. In addition, the Reach has the power to control all trade being directed through the Western coast of Westeros. Particularly since they have a strong naval presence. Tywin can't match that if the Redwynes wanted to cause a blockade. Look at what Stannis does to Kings Landing in ACOK. His fleet controls the Narrow Sea and blocks ships from going to Kings Landing. Tell me that the Reach isn't Westeros' economic hub.

Oldtown is indeed rich. And yet we have never been given any sign that the Hightowers have lifted a finger to help Mace out at any point in the War of the Five Kings. Besides Alerie, I don't think there's any Hightowers in King's Landing, and no Hightowers in Mace's army. Alekyne Florent is being given refuge in the Hightower after getting kicked out of Brightwater. The Tyrells' most powerful vassal house seems distinctly unhelpful. And, yeah, Janna Tyrell has the same social rank as Cersei. But she's older and not as pretty, and the Tyrells are seen as defeated enemies, while the Lannisters were crucial allies. It's not just that there's no clear reason to prefer the Tyrells. It's also that by choosing an older Tyrell girl over Cersei, you're purposefully snubbing Tywin Lannister. It's exactly the same mistake that Aerys made, and look what happened to him! The Lannister marriage alliance absolutely makes sense. Just beyond the fact that Tywin has much more control over the West than Mace does over the Reach, it's also just that there's a conscious decision going on to reward the House that gave crucial aid to the Rebellion at a crucial moment, and to punish the House that tried to starve the new King's brothers to death for a year.

The Tyrells are the potential lynchpin of a pro-Viserys uprising. It makes sense to try to reduce their power as much as possible - giving them important positions and making alliances with them is giving key assets to people whose loyalty you can't trust. With hindsight, we can see that Mace Tyrell doesn't have much interest in a Targaryen restoration. But that's not at all how it would have looked immediately after the war.