Does Elia have time for a third child?

[BalerionTheCat]

Bastardy is a problem because the books say it is a problem for Jon.

Lords and Ladies are putting much value in legitimacy. But do we, readers and GRRM, believe a child is better or worse because his parents were married or not?

The story is about blood. Jon is what he is because he his the son of Fire and Ice. And the gods gifted him thru portents and other people sacrifice. Jon is loved because of his achievements and because he actually help and improve people's lives. Those who see no further than bastardy will be dead before the end.

Maybe Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, and Lyanna was the Queen when she gave birth. Maybe not. But this will be irrelevant in the end. Jon doesn't need this legitimacy. It will just be incidental. Like saying the lords were right, but for the wrong reason.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

My biggest problem with the polygamy thing is that Maegor the Cruel isn't really someone a person should hope to emulate - whether it's marriage, ruling, or general personality. I've always felt that the way George introduced the idea of polygamy was in such a way as to make it difficult and/or impossible for polygamy to be generally accepted by the Westerosi. I have no issues with R+L=J, but the idea of a polygamous marriage doesn't sit well with me, not with Maegor the Cruel being the only example we have of a polygamous marriage. I'd rather he just stay a bastard.

Ok my point is not about wanting to emulate maegor the Cruel. My point is that when we examine the way his wives and indeed any wives are talked about in both the main story and the companion texts, not once are these women declared not wives, no one of any faith, not the HS himself nor the lowliest wandering fellow, EVER speaks of them as Not true wives. Meaning that they are accepted as his true wives, meaning that if a Targaryen takes a second wife, whilst the realm may bleed over it, and the Faith declare war upon him, they don't actually refuse to acknowledge the marriage. This is the point.

If Rhaegar and Lyanna married then whilst the HS might spit feathers (He can't go to war as he has no army in 282.)he is not going to announce that they are not really married.

I know this bit was not directed at myself but I think it is pertinent to the discussion of whether or not he would take a second wife and the realm may indeed not end up wanting to tear him limb from limb for it.

Oh, there was probably still sex had - there's such a thing called the rhythm method. While I wouldn't recommend it if you have access to the much more effective birth control pill, condoms, diaphragms, sponges, etc, it's moderately effective when there's no birth control options readily available (or you disapprove of them - "good" Catholics use it*) and a much better choice than the "pull-out" method. It's also pretty handy if you're actually trying to get pregnant - want a baby, have sex when you're likely to be ovulating; no baby, have sex when you're not likely to be ovulating. It's actually pretty handy once you've got a handle on your cycle - and that only takes a couple of months (if you're regular). If you're irregular, it's still effective, just a bigger chance for an "oops." Which they've got moon tea to handle - and if another kid might kill you, it's side effect of possibly wrecking your womb is irrelevant. As for the incapable, well, the maesters said she wouldn't (shouldn't) have any more children. That's pretty much incapable. Not sterile, but certainly not capable.

Elia can not risk an "Opps" she truly can not. And why would Rhaegar and she be having sex when doing so to have a child is off the table. They were not lovers, they were friends. There was fondness in their marriage but no passion. Why on earth would a couple who don't even desire each other have sex at all when the chance of a pregnancy would kill the woman. Elia is frail and we know from what little information we do have on abortions in Westeros coupled with our own real world knowledge of the herbs mentioned as being utilised for them and the only reliable contraceptive in world that it is very dangerous. Even for a healthy woman. Tansy can kill, Pennyroyal can kill. as basically can most abortificants. I just do not buy a couple who don't even have sexual desire between them risking it.

Hence why I think he could swing the second marriage. Asking a man to live a sexless life in this universe would be seen as asking a lot! when that man has not taken sacred vows, why would anyone condemn him to living without sex. Certainly whilst other high lords might shrug and suggest whores or a paramour. The HS is not. And it is fundamentally his blessing Rhaegar needs. Rhaegar can go to the HS and plead his case that he needs a second wife! He has one son. Who is an infant, and no abillity to provide the realm with a second legitimate son unless the HS approves his second marriage, there is a precedent for it, in Aegon I & in Maegor (though admittedly I wouldn't be mentioning him myself when making my case.) The realm needs and heir and a spare and in the deeply sexist world Rhaenys just isn't going to cut it as an option for the ONLY spare.

Rhaegar can sell it to the HS &his father (though we can also look at the option that Rhaegar didn't need Aerys's approval as he was planning on usurping his crown.) As vital for the realm. He can sell it to Dorne because to not do this risks Elia's life! And he can swear that Lyanna's children would not come before Aegon, and her first son will be married to Rhaenys. So that IF anything did happen to Aegon she is Queen Consort.

I can see him seriously thinking this would be workable. I think they went to the ToJ after their secret wedding with the intention of emerging once she was visibly with child in order to further make it impossible for the marriage to be rejected. this was a common tactic in history. A couple whose families would not approve their marriage would elope, marry and return once pregnant in order to force their parents to accept it. You can't pretend a marriage has not been consummated if there is a bun in the oven.

In fact Jaehaerys II & Shaera used this very tactic to get around Ageon V's refusal to allow them to marry. She was not said to be with child after their elopement, but it does tell us they swore they had consummated the marriage. And Aegon V felt he was left with no choice but to give them his blessing.

So these are my reasons for thinking the polygamy angle with R+L is viable. We have precedents for polygamy in story, we know the faith did not ever declare the subsequent wives non wives, we know Rhaegar had a reasonable reason to do it which had weight to gain approval from the faith. And there is precedent for the idea of elopement in the Targaryen family, and in real life for the tactic of doing so and staying hidden until a pregnancy proves the marriage is consummated.

And there is also an way for him to clear it with Dorne and Elia's family.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Lyanna was the Queen when she gave birth.

Lyanna was never the Queen because Rhaegar was never the King, she was the King's mother and Dowager Crown Princess.

[BalerionTheCat]

Lyanna was never the Queen because Rhaegar was never the King, she was the King's mother and Dowager Crown Princess.

Dowager certainly. Queen of Princess, I don't know. There was no one else to be queen. But I don't care, I should not have said that. That was not my point.

My point was she could be legit or not, it doesn't matter. What matter is whose blood Jon is and what he does for improving the life of others. King or whatever comes as a recognition, not as a birthright or an ownership.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Ok firstly what are these good objections to R+L=J?

The fact that Ned had no reason to hide Jon`s true parentage. Even as a son of Rhaegar, his bastardy would make him no threat to Robert`s place on the Iron Throne. And the existence (in the distant past) of polygamy does not negate this. No Targaryen since Maegor had multiple wives, and even then, it caused widespread anger in the Seven Kingdoms. That was almost 300 years ago.

So, that would make Targ polygamous marriage some ancient, obscure tradition, almost three centuries old?

Kingsmoot was an ancient, obscure tradition, four thousand years old, yet it managed to become relevant very recently.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Dowager certainly. Queen of Princess, I don't know. There was no one else to be queen. But I don't care, I should not have said that. That was not my point.

My point was she could be legit or not, it doesn't matter. What matter is whose blood Jon is and what he does for improving the life of others. King or whatever comes as a recognition, not as a birthright or an ownership.

Agree with everything you said. I believe that if Jon can win against the Others and rebuild the Realm no one will give a second penny about his parent's wedding. After all who cared about Aegon I's parents or even his own family?

I only meant that according to etiquette Lyanna could not be the Queen because her husband was never the King but she could be the King's mother because Jon was the King.

[Jak Scaletongue]

Ok my point is not about wanting to emulate maegor the Cruel. My point is that when we examine the way his wives and indeed any wives are talked about in both the main story and the companion texts, not once are these women declared not wives, no one of any faith, not the HS himself nor the lowliest wandering fellow, EVER speaks of them as Not true wives. Meaning that they are accepted as his true wives, meaning that if a Targaryen takes a second wife, whilst the realm may bleed over it, and the Faith declare war upon him, they don't actually refuse to acknowledge the marriage. This is the point. They didn't deny any of his public marriages. A secret polygamous marriage? Little harder to convince the entire realm that it's legit when both of the people who were wed are dead. But that's not my issue - my issue with the polygamous marriage part of the RLJ theory is just simply a *personal* aversion to Maegor the Cruel coupled with the idea that Rhaegar, who's been built up to be this "great man," would think that a secret polygamous marriage would go over well with anyone (did his wife even know? That's a big one, personally, for me. I know consent isn't really an issue for characters in these books, but it can still bug me!). At any rate, don't waste your time, I freely admit it's a personal bias, mostly against Maegor the Cruel! For now I'd rather stick to the "Jon's still a bastard" road. If I'm wrong, then I'll be wrong - I have a young child, I'm used to it :)

If Rhaegar and Lyanna married then whilst the HS might spit feathers (He can't go to war as he has no army in 282.)he is not going to announce that they are not really married.

I know this bit was not directed at myself but I think it is pertinent to the discussion of whether or not he would take a second wife and the realm may indeed not end up wanting to tear him limb from limb for it.

Elia can not risk an "Opps" she truly can not. That's what the moon tea would be for. And why would Rhaegar and she be having sex when doing so to have a child is off the table Women enjoy sex for reasons other than making babies. Sex is fun. Orgasms are awesome! They were not lovers, they were friends The next Queen of Westeros cannot be seen to have lovers, therefore if she wants sex, she's pretty much gotta sleep with her husband (I wouldn't be trying to sneak a lover in under the nose of Mad King Aerys, even if my husband approved of said lover). There was fondness in their marriage but no passion. A married woman (especially the next Queen) cannot be known to be sleeping with anyone else - that leaves her husband, whether there's passion there or not, he's probably still good for an orgasm. Why on earth would a couple who don't even desire each other have sex at all when the chance of a pregnancy would kill the woman Sex is fun, orgasms better! See below - why on earth would a 65 y.o woman think a pregnancy is a good idea?. Elia is frail and we know from what little information we do have on abortions in Westeros coupled with our own real world knowledge of the herbs mentioned as being utilised for them and the only reliable contraceptive in world that it is very dangerous. Even for a healthy woman. Tansy can kill, Pennyroyal can kill. as basically can most abortificants. I just do not buy a couple who don't even have sexual desire between them risking it. People risk much more on much more insignificant stuff - a full grown, sexually mature adult woman has sexual needs. Sex and procreation are two different things, even though the first can lead to the second. Sex is an enjoyable activity; procreation is a necessity - they can be related without being the same thing. And you're assuming that Rhaegar was NOT a normal Westerosi husband of the times and left his wife alone (sexually) when legally he's not required to. This is a time and place where "marital rape" does not exist. We don't know about their sexual relationship, but plenty of people have sex with each other without knowing names, without liking them, while actively hating them, there's "fuck buddies," there's "no-strings-attached" relationships, hook-ups, all sorts of variations. Just because there wasn't passion doesn't mean they didn't enjoy each other sexually. You can have good sex (great sex) without passion. Passion can be overrated anyway - those relationships can be volatile with the wrong people. Like everything, passion is good in moderation ;) I can't tell from your name whether you're male or female (or other***), but either way, you aren't taking much stock of a full grown woman's sexual needs, which can exclude childbearing - believe it or not women like sex for all the same reasons men like it; it feels good, orgasms are awesome and it's all fun if you do it right! Just because it was recommended that she not bear another child doesn't mean that 1) she shouldn't have sex 2) she couldn't enjoy sex 3) use an abortificant/moon tea. It's all about risk vs reward - and not knowing either of these people intimately means that we can't confirm or deny what they would decide. There's plenty of people that shouldn't do certain things but do them anyway. Just because she was frail doesn't mean she didn't enjoy sex. Just because she couldn't have another baby doesn't mean she didn't enjoy sex. Just because they were "friendly" not "passionate" doesn't mean they didn't enjoy sex with each other. I read a news story this morning on CBC that said a 65 y.o woman in Germany gave birth to quadruplets after undergoing IVF, because her thirteenth child, a 9 y.o daughter wanted a baby sibling. Even in modern times that's an extremely risky thing for a 65 y.o to do - but she did it anyway. I don't see why it's so hard to imagine that a teenage/twenty something woman (frail or not) would enjoy sex, especially if she has a amicable relationship with her husband - as opposed to a Lysa Tully married to a man older than her father. You keep focussing on her frailty and that she shouldn't have another child - that doesn't stop millions of women past and present, why is it used a "proof" that Elia wouldn't have had sex afterwards. There are just as many reasons why she wouldn't want to have sex afterward, too - maybe sex hurt after childbirth (not uncommon), maybe she really was worried about conceiving. But we don't know enough about either of them to know - and what we do know is all second-hand at best and third or fourth hand usually. I don't ask about my friends detailed sex lives and they don't ask about mine - how can either of us know exactly what was going on in their bedroom? But your paragraph seems to completely exclude the idea that women have a sexuality that is in not tied to procreation.

Hence why I think he could swing the second marriage. Asking a man to live a sexless life in this universe would be seen as asking a lot! No one would expect him to live a sexless life - they'd expect a mistress or a LOT of brothel visits. Oh "He's not that kind of man" - that's fine, but that's what his lords, his father, his wife, his wife's family and the smallfolk would expect. Hell, the Martells would probably feel better about a paramour vs a second wife. Just as Aerys was expected to do certain thing and didn't - certain things would have been expected of Rhaegar in that situation and taking a second wife could be seen by his lords and the smallfolk as acting just like Aerys by not taking care to do his due diligence with the Great Lords. When that man has not taken sacred vows, why would anyone condemn him to living without sex. Certainly whilst other high lords might shrug and suggest whores or a paramour. The HS is not. And it is fundamentally his blessing Rhaegar needs. No, first and foremost he needs his father's blessing - and without the approval of the Great Lords he won't have any of their respect (which he needs, to rule; Aerys lost their respect and he doesn't rule anymore!) Rhaegar can go to the HS and plead his case that he needs a second wife! He has one son. Who is an infant, and no abillity to provide the realm with a second legitimate son unless the HS approves his second marriage, there is a precedent for it, in Aegon I & in Maegor (though admittedly I wouldn't be mentioning him myself when making my case.) The realm needs and heir and a spare and in the deeply sexist world Rhaenys just isn't going to cut it as an option for the ONLY spare. It is a sticky situation, but not an impossible one. He did have a younger brother who was healthy and strong - that's a spare. There's always the option of going for the third kid and "getting rid of" his wife that way (not very nice, but certainly a mindset among some in those days). I'm sure, under very strained circumstances, they may have been able to come up with a "paramour" plan - with Elia's input, ideally, where Elia's the queen, but his "paramour" helps provide a spare or two. But who knows - like I said, it's a very *personal* bias against the polygamy idea.

Rhaegar can sell it to the HS &his father (though we can also look at the option that Rhaegar didn't need Aerys's approval as he was planning on usurping his crown.) As vital for the realm. He can sell it to Dorne because to not do this risks Elia's life! And he can swear that Lyanna's children would not come before Aegon, and her first son will be married to Rhaenys. So that IF anything did happen to Aegon she is Queen Consort. I think he'd have more luck pitching a "paramour" situation than a second wife (especially to the Martells). The paramour would NEVER have the status to "usurp" Elia's place at Rhaegar's side. A second wife would. Especially if Aegon died young (without the murder) - with a paramour, Elia could still be Queen, even if her son dies young. With a second wife, regardless of any vows/oaths taken, if Aegon died young and the second wife's son became heir - what's Elia's position? Even if the son marries Rhaenys, Elia's inconsequential without her own son. Doesn't matter what Rhaegar "vows" - human nature dictates that the mother of the soon-to-be king has more sway over court than the mother of the daughter the soon-to-be king may marry. A paramour situation would prevent that, because the paramour would not have the status that Elia has - wife of Rhaegar, the Crown Prince. And if they've got the power to approve a polygamous marriage, they've got the power to legitimize a paramours children. We already know they can do that, actually - a precedent that was set much sooner in time than polygamous marriage. A precedent that doesn't rely on dragons to approve it.

I can see him seriously thinking this would be workable. I think they went to the ToJ after their secret wedding with the intention of emerging once she was visibly with child in order to further make it impossible for the marriage to be rejected. this was a common tactic in history. A couple whose families would not approve their marriage would elope, marry and return once pregnant in order to force their parents to accept it. You can't pretend a marriage has not been consummated if there is a bun in the oven. Just because he *thinks* it's workable doesn't mean he misjudged. They could very well laugh him out of the room and call his new wife (Lyanna) a whore and send her and the infant home.

In fact Jaehaerys II & Shaera used this very tactic to get around Ageon V's refusal to allow them to marry. She was not said to be with child after their elopement, but it does tell us they swore they had consummated the marriage. And Aegon V felt he was left with no choice but to give them his blessing. Aerys doesn't strike me as the "indulgent" type of parent that Aegon V seemed to be. Aegon felt he had no choice, but Aerys roasted a Great Lord alive over wildfire because said Lord and son were worried about their daughter/sister, I think Aerys would feel he had plenty of choices (most of them probably included wildfire!).

So these are my reasons for thinking the polygamy angle with R+L is viable. We have precedents for polygamy in story bad ones; Rhaegar didn't even have dragons like Aegon I and Maegor., we know the faith did not ever declare the subsequent wives non wives, because: dragons we know Rhaegar had a reasonable reason to do it which had weight to gain approval from the faith. But with possible other options available as well. And there is precedent for the idea of elopement in the Targaryen family, and in real life for the tactic of doing so and staying hidden until a pregnancy proves the marriage is consummated. Leaving out, of course, that Aegon V was a reasonable man and Aerys was the Mad King - just because Aegon felt he couldn't stop it doesn't mean Aerys would feel the same way.

And there is also an way for him to clear it with Dorne and Elia's family. This is another thing I have issues with - in a culture comfortable with the idea of a paramour, you think they'd be okay with a second wife who could take Elia's place?

***Honest question - how can I phrase that without having to stick to binary genders and with as few words as possible (I type enough of them, if I can condense a phrase like that and not offend any one, I'd honestly love some suggestions! Thanks.

I do realize I'm a little everywhere - sorry about that! Bear with me, I'm working on being more concise (still need some work though!) I know I'm commenting on your specific comment, but in general this is stuff that bothers me when it comes to RLJ. It's not you specifically - you're comment was just a handy receptacle to explain some of my misgivings!

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Ok, first off you are focussing on entirely the wrong thing.

Of course women have as much sexuality as men, I spend a lot of my time pointing this out to people myself. But the point is in this world that is irrelevant. Elia's desire for orgasms is of zero concern to anyone. (well I imagine she would be concerned with it, and that Rhaegar may well give a damn.) Frankly no one even acknowledges that women have sexual desire in this world.

It reflects our own very accurately in that regard. But as much as I enjoy discussing that topic this is not the place.

The relevant point is that Rhaegar's sexuality is acknowledged and understood as important by the social structures with both his peers and the church. And so he can use it as leverage to get people to accept his second wife.

The fact everyone involved is now dead is also irrelevant.

At the time of the proposed second marriage non of them were dead and presumably all three involved parties expected to be available to inform the realm it had happened and the child is legitimate. The issues Jon may have getting recognised is not what is being discussed. They are entirely separate things. We are discussing the point at which the proposed marriage happened. And the factors at play at that time. I am glad that you admit it is personal bias. Because it very clearly is. You are focussing on your own emotional response to this idea and the things I have pointed out, and not upon the point of view of the characters involved, in relation to the world they live in.

OK I don't know how much you know about herbs. I know a lot, my husband is an apothecary. (Yes they still exist.) And I was raised with herbal remedies as an integral part of my life. (Hippy parents) and trust me when I say the herbs involved in Moon Tea and the presumably much stronger dose required for actual abortion are dangerous.And by no means garunteed to be succsesful at aborting a foetus. We have a list of the main ingredients and they are herbs that can kill, & I mean kill a strong healthy woman in a modern day setting, with access to modern facilities. Personally I wouldn't think it worth the risk. And I love sex!!! But there are safer options for getting your rocks off than penis in vagina penetration. Oral, dildo's, manual stimulation. If you are in a loveless marriage, but one where you are friends, and you are mother to two children would you truly risk death to get a penis inside you? I know I wouldn't. not without the draw of actually deeply loving my partner pulling me to want the intimacy of having him inside me. Even then I'm pretty sure that the fear of a potentially fatal pregnancy-leaving my children motherless, would remind me to stick with getting eaten out and using a dildo.

Non of which comes into play when we consider how Rhaegar may sell his second marriage to the HS. Because as much as Elia is a sexual being, as far as the faith is concerned she is not, and her needs whatever they may be are irrelevant. (that is shitty, I know!!)

As to if he would be expected to just have a paramour instead. That is all well and good but Rhaegar wants a third child specifically. And the proposal is that he took a second wife. So that that child is legitimate. Which is implied in the books through various hints which if you are unfamiliar with I can provide but won't waste time on here as you are likely well aware of them.

So presuming that he wanted his third head of the Dragon to be legitimate, and so took a second wife. His first wife being unable to provide him with a third child without risking death seems to be a good enough reason. There is a precedent for polygamy within his family, and whilst the family no longer have dragons to enforce it. He does not need them if he can get the HS on board. And his wife being no longer able to provide him with a sex life or children according to the relevant authorities ie the Maesters who say she can not bare a third child and live, and so she can not have sex. And the faith acknowledge that she can not do her duty as a wife and that Rhaegar has needs, which according to their faith can only be met within a marriage.

And add in that a spare to the heir is desirable by the entire realm. Then yes I think it would be plausible, that they would endorse his second marriage.

As to if everyone is going to just happily accept Viserys as a spare. No. Rhaegar is the heir and after him his son Aegon. After Aegon is Viserys. But there are too many variables for that to be the preferred option by all if Rhaegar turns up with a high born pregnant woman whom he has married and whom his first wife supports as her sister wife. What if they reject Lyanna as his wife and this scenario plays out, Dorne and the still alive Elia want Rhaenys to inherit over Viserys. That would mean war. What if Viserys turns out to be unable to provide an heir himself? He is too young at this point to know. There are no other Targaryen baring male name relatives to pass the throne too (unlike during the war against Maegor.) and so war would erupt.

Your idea that the faith would declare his paramours children legitimate and everyone would be cool with that (over Rhaenys) in such a situation is weak. Would the entire realm really accept a "former" bastard? Would Dorne accept a "former" bastard over Rhaenys? I doubt that very much as legitimately born eldest child of Rhaegar targaryen she would have many who would fight for her over a legitimised bastard. Better to have no bastards, and simply marry her to this true born child instead. Far more stable and safe a choice. And it has a precedent within his family. (Why even include polygamy if it isn't going to come into play at some point in the narrative?)

Elia ceases to be Queen if Rhaegar dies full stop. If Aegon is King she is then the Queen mother. If he dies without issue, she ceases to be Queen mother even, unless she weds Viserys, which would never happen because she can not provide him with children. So no matter what, in that scenario she looses her position. Her meerly being the sister wife of the new Queen mother & mother of the Queen herself (Rhaenys) is not a reason to refuse to support him having a second wife on Dorne's behalf, as in that scenario it is the best possible outcome for her.

You are also missing the point re "the power" to legitimise polygamy. The faith don't de-legitimise such marriages, they never have, they didn't regarding Aegon I and they didn't despite Maegor the Cruel, and they DID have Dragons!!

They were so outraged by Maegor doing it they went to war against him despite dragons, but they never declared his marriages illegitimate. And eventually officially accepted him as King & them as his Queens. The point that is relevant is that they went down in history as official wives.

No marriage has ever in fact been declared illegitimate in Westeros by the faith so far as we know. Wars got fought, but never did anyone declare the marriages false. So if the faith didn't want to accept it, they would try to muster lords to declare war on the crown. They could not at this time do so themselves because they did not have an army, unlike when they warred against Maegor for the reason of polygamy.

If Rhaegar married Lyanna, I think he had strong arguments to use to justify this. In Elia's inability to bear more children or even provide him with what at the time, was officially deemed a sex life. ie: penetrative, heterosexual sex within a marriage.

And a strong argument could be made by him as to why another male child was important to the realm.

As to Aerys approving his second marriage or not. Well. he may not have been needed to do so, as we know Rhaegar was planning on taking him out of the picture. But also ask yourself how did Aerys know where to send Gerold Hightower to find Rhaegar ? Could it be that Aerys knew where his son was? and so what he was up to? I don't think it can be ruled out. Though we don't have enough evidence to say he did either. And as I pointed out Aerys approval may not have even been relevant due to Rhaegars planed take over. He did however have a strong sense of regal entitlement for his family to do as they pleased, and he understood all too well the stresses of having only one male heir. Their house was dwindling rapidly and as mad as he was I think he still understood that if you run out of offspring your house will fall.

I'm a woman.