Does anyone else care that GRRM gave away the mysteries and ending to the show's directors?

[think4yerslf]

(My main point: I really hate the fact that GRRM revealed his planned ending to the show's directors and that the show intends to end the way the novels will. I don't want anyone to tell me how one my favorite epic fantasy series end BEFORE THE BOOK IS OUT, let alone have it broadcast worldwide on one of the most popular show on TV. )

On his Not A Blog this week GRRM stated:

"There has seldom been any TV series as faithful to its source material, by and large (if you doubt that, talk to the Harry Dresden fans, or readers of the Sookie Stackhouse novels, or the fans of the original WALKING DEAD comic books)... but the longer the show goes on, the bigger the butterflies become. And now we have reached the point where the beat of butterfly wings is stirring up storms, like the one presently engulfing my email.

Prose and television have different strengths, different weaknesses, different requirements.

David and Dan and Bryan and HBO are trying to make the best television series that they can.

And over here I am trying to write the best novels that I can.

And yes, more and more, they differ. Two roads diverging in the dark of the woods, I suppose... but all of us are still intending that at the end we will arrive at the same place."

Since GRRM wont accept comments there, I’m posting here and other places, as I think Mr Martin is avoiding the question. This “let the show be the show and the books be the books” is simply avoiding the question of WHY in the hell is GRRM OK with the show being a huge spoiler-fest for all us long time devoted fans of the books. The show is more and more diverging from the books. Which is just fine by me, I love the show as well. We all get TWO variant versions of a story we love. Fine with me, makes me enjoy the show more actually. However, what I personally emphatically DO NOT want, or see absolutely any call for, is for the show to HAVE to end the way the books do. GRRM is trying to have it both ways, ‘the show is different so calm down’ he seems to say – and yet the show IS NOT different (so we are told) in how it will END apparently. Since it is very very likely that the show will end well before GRRM completes his last novel A Dream of Spring” (sometime in ~2020 is my guess), this means that the show will divulge the ending and the mysteries before the book is out, which I very much dislike. I just cannot understand WHY GRRM felt compelled to tell his secrets on various mysteries, and the novels ending to the show’s directors, knowing full well the show would have to diverge anyway. I am happy to let the show be the show and the books be the books – BUT IS GRRM willing to also???? This is very disappointing to me, just curious if anyone else out there feels the same. (Maybe it's just some of us fans of the books that have been around for over a decade now, for sure the TV show-only fans could care less.)

[Primalsplit]

You are right that the whole argument is contradictory. Show is show, book is book. No, show is an adaptation of the book and it started out as a very good one and it's on it's way to be one of the worst ones if you ask my opinion. The bad thing is, yes it will end before the books. That one is almost certain. And it will spoil a lot of mysteries of the book, but the whole show itself is probably not going to be a good way of learning them. It will simply feel as if someone spoiled you the ending of a story, amd will tell you all of it in 10 minutes in a very butchered summary; sometimes with changed plotlines due to wrong memory.

So. Take my advice. Don't watch GoT after this season. Stay away from internet about Asoiaf, don't speak to your friends or relatives about it and even stay off of shitpiles like youtube comments even if it's of a justin bieber video (but again, why would you watch justing bieber videos on youtube?). That's what I'm planning to do at least, and then only after 2020 I will take a look at the show if I feel like it.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

He keeps making the point about the number of Scarlet O'Hara's children in Gone With the Wind for book and movie. So his point is that many details will be completely different, but that doesn't mean they are telling two different stories. They're telling the same story, just one may take a different path to get there than the other.

[Mish Windage]

Doesn't bother me one bit.

There's a kid's game when you have a big group of kids. Split them up into groups of two or three. Give them some instruction like "You have a dog that looses a red ball. You go on an adventure to find it and in the end you do find it."

And you'll have as many different stories as you have groups of kids, but they all find the red ball at the end.

[TheRoseWithThorns]

I am honestly okay with this decision! I think that if they really want to still call it "Game of Thrones", they will need to roughly follow the intended storyline. If that means early reveals of facts and mysteries we don't know about yet, than that is alright as long as they do it in a different way. To quote the Baker's wife in "Into The Woods":

"All will come to a happy end!"

And that is what I believe D & D and GRRM have planned on doing since the show began! :cool4:

[think4yerslf]

Primal Spirit - you have the correct view of things. This: "It will simply feel as if someone spoiled you the ending of a story, amd will tell you all of it in 10 minutes in a very butchered summary;" This is absolutely how I feel. I really cant fathom why GRRM divulged the ending. The show can, and should, adapt what books are public - modify as they wish, fine by me - but I see zero reason for the show to have to end like the novels will given all the MAJOR changes being made anyway. And I TRULY am lost as to why GRRM would WANT his ending, and mysteries resolved for everyone on the big screen BEFORE the books will be available. Imagine JK Rowling revealing Snape's secret on the movie screen - and THEN releasing the final novel. Stupid.

Let the show be the show George! If they want to run ahead of your novels and tell a different story (which they ARE), then let them. And I completely disagree with the others comments - with the changes happening - these are more and more two completely different stories. (No Coldhands last season, Greyjoy family completely ignored with the Dragonhorn not appearing, Victarion not even making an appearance, Jaime in Dorne for goodness sake - Sansa married to Ramsey inside Winterfell. And this is the SAME story??? Good grief. I enjoy the show, dont get me wrong, hell I enjoy it more with the changes, leaves us readers guessing. But I emphatically disagree, and am angry about the fact that the show's writers and directos KNOW the official ending and the truth of several mysteries, and will (we can be sure) hamhanded and halfhearted reveal this to all of us book fans. There is simply no reason for the show to have to end like the books. Zero. And there certainly was no good reason for GRRM to tell the writers before his story is completed and published. Zero - at least from the readers perspective.

My remaining hope is that Martin will continue to make changes, and that with those coupled with changes in the story the show has made, the show will be forced into a corner to end the story very differently than MArtin plans. I imagine we wont escape finding out the truth of Jon Snow from the show however. Sad.

[think4yerslf]

n

[Primalsplit]

This, and the lack of sensitivity from show producers on subjects Martin treads with appropriate care are the reasons I will probably not continue watching the show any longer.

I mean, I will stick around for this Season to see how pathetic it gets so I can make fun of it here. But I've seen that the show will spoil the books especially after this season. If tWoW get published before the show somehow, I may stick for the next season too. But I don't believe in miracles. I know the last book(s) will not be published before the show "completes" the story. Regardless, I've lost faith in the show and will not be watching. Every detail spoiled, will detract from the enjoyment of the books.

[bb1180]

Primal Spirit - you have the correct view of things. This: "It will simply feel as if someone spoiled you the ending of a story, amd will tell you all of it in 10 minutes in a very butchered summary;" This is absolutely how I feel. I really cant fathom why GRRM divulged the ending. The show can, and should, adapt what books are public - modify as they wish, fine by me - but I see zero reason for the show to have to end like the novels will given all the MAJOR changes being made anyway. And I TRULY am lost as to why GRRM would WANT his ending, and mysteries resolved for everyone on the big screen BEFORE the books will be available. Imagine JK Rowling revealing Snape's secret on the movie screen - and THEN releasing the final novel. Stupid.

That's just the practical business side of the matter. Its virtually certain that, as a condition for buying the rights to make a TV adaptation, HBO and the show's producers also wanted the whole story, including the ending, as well as the major plot points of any forthcoming books yet to be written or released.

[SerDesmondHume]

You are right that the whole argument is contradictory. Show is show, book is book. No, show is an adaptation of the book and it started out as a very good one and it's on it's way to be one of the worst ones if you ask my opinion. The bad thing is, yes it will end before the books. That one is almost certain. And it will spoil a lot of mysteries of the book, but the whole show itself is probably not going to be a good way of learning them. It will simply feel as if someone spoiled you the ending of a story, amd will tell you all of it in 10 minutes in a very butchered summary; sometimes with changed plotlines due to wrong memory.

So. Take my advice. Don't watch GoT after this season. Stay away from internet about Asoiaf, don't speak to your friends or relatives about it and even stay off of shitpiles like youtube comments even if it's of a justin bieber video (but again, why would you watch justing bieber videos on youtube?). That's what I'm planning to do at least, and then only after 2020 I will take a look at the show if I feel like it.

That's the thing. People harp on things that are bad adaptations but most bad adaptations don't really spoil the source material. Dragonball: Evolution is probably the worst adaptation ever but it was so far removed from Dragon Ball that it wouldn't ruin the anime or manga for you at all. On the other hand we have The Last Airbender which spoils a lot of book one in a mostly completely disappointing way that's what game of thrones is becoming. If M. knight got two or three sequel movies and continued to disappoint in that way then anybody who watched it would never truly appreciate the masterpiece that is the source work. In asoiaf's case it's worse because GRRM will only be able to get at most one book out before the show ends and that's if we are lucky.

I wish George left them to their own devices like with full metal alchemist. The 2003 anime caught up to the manga and avoided filler about one third of the way through and they came up with their own excellent story. I don't think D&D are talented enough to do an excellent story but when the manga finished they made fma: brotherhood which followed it. The endings and midpoints were different and people got to experience it the correct way first.

[YoungGriff89]

I've been saying this for a while. I see nothing wrong with doing a faithful adaptation of the published books, maybe splitting Feast and Dance into two seasons as well. Modify the story enough along the way that everyone is back in Westeros by the end of season six, use season seven to tie up some loose ends, spoil something from the books here and there, but in moderation. Leave plenty of things out to keep people interested in the books. It seems like a rational idea to me.

[The L.E.D.]

Count me in as someone who doesn't mind the show going its own way and, paraphrasing GRRM, rejoins the novels' story-path in the end. For me the key is that Martin is involved in the show, and that the show goes in the direction he wants it to go, generally speaking. He's executive producer, has written some episodes and has divulged key information about the ending to D&D to ensure that the show follows to the end he sees it should have.

The show has Martin's consent, and he's listened to. There are many sad examples in the history of both TV and film where this is not the case in the creative process. (Although as I understand it, it's exactly this reason why some react with vitriol to this topic — it would be easier to disregard the show if it wasn't following Martin's masterplan at all)

[Takyon]

So. Take my advice. Don't watch GoT after this season. Stay away from internet about Asoiaf, don't speak to your friends or relatives about it and even stay off of shitpiles like youtube comments even if it's of a justin bieber video (but again, why would you watch justing bieber videos on youtube?). That's what I'm planning to do at least, and then only after 2020 I will take a look at the show if I feel like it.

If a person who's invested enough in the story to have made an account on a fan forum, your supposed solutions sound as if they'll be a trip down misery lane.

If you stick to re-reading the first five books, you'll be unable to discuss theories online without other people chiming in with anecdotes about where the series is likely headed given the way the show has fleshed out. How can you feasibly shut yourself in until whenever the final books are released?

[Arya and Needle]

Do you have any idea how many show-only watchers had the red wedding spoiled by book readers? The scene was still awesome, the fans survived it then, and we will too.

[think4yerslf]

To Takyon, I agree, there is no true plausible way for a true fan of the ASOIAF series such as myself to NOT be exposed to the show, and it's reveals. If the last TV show season (or full length film release?) was to come our say within a year or so of the final book - maybe - but there is very small chance of that happening IMO. My guess is the show might go on another 3, maybe four seasons, wrapping by ~2018. The final book will not be out until at LEAST 2020, I will bet dollars to donuts. With all of the fanfare surrounding the show and the various fan sites such as this this one, it will be a impossible task to NOT hear the ending and the resolution to the mysteries.

To Arya and Needle, I would say that it's common, very common, that the book precedes the film/TV adaptation. And it is almost (not in every case of course) always true that film/TV adapations are weaker, less fleshed out, changed from the books, less satisfying. In this case though we have a true oddity in that a very successful epic-length book series is being outpaced by a TV show adaptation that is making major modifications to the story line and yet the TV show writers/directors know the ending of the story as yet unpublished, because the author told them. I truly wish that that wasnt the case. I enjoy the show, and I have really enjoyed some of the changes (especially when Brienne found Arya, but was rejected and then fought and overcame the Hound - the book would have been BETTER had it had that). However, I would definitely enjoy the show more if I knew that they were not going to tell me those secrets left unresolved in currently published books. I dont want to know the "true" ending (the book version) until the book is out. Ever. By anyone. Maybe GRRM had to do this contractually. Maybe. Still, I wish it hadnt happened. I think it will make the books less enjoyable, as any book or story is where you already know the ending.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I think that "enjoyable" is reader specific. Some people enjoy the element of surprise, but some of us actually don't. I'm relieved I'll know the broadstrokes of the ending for this series before 2020.

[Arya and Needle]

To Arya and Needle, I would say that it's common, very common, that the book precedes the film/TV adaptation. And it is almost (not in every case of course) always true that film/TV adapations are weaker, less fleshed out, changed from the books, less satisfying. In this case though we have a true oddity in that a very successful epic-length book series is being outpaced by a TV show adaptation that is making major modifications to the story line and yet the TV show writers/directors know the ending of the story as yet unpublished, because the author told them. I truly wish that that wasnt the case. I enjoy the show, and I have really enjoyed some of the changes (especially when Brienne found Arya, but was rejected and then fought and overcame the Hound - the book would have been BETTER had it had that). However, I would definitely enjoy the show more if I knew that they were not going to tell me those secrets left unresolved in currently published books. I dont want to know the "true" ending (the book version) until the book is out. Ever. By anyone. Maybe GRRM had to do this contractually. Maybe. Still, I wish it hadnt happened. I think it will make the books less enjoyable, as any book or story is where you already know the ending.

I think that's all fair, and this is a good topic of discussion that doesn't belong in the same category as the whiny "omg the show sux" stuff. I'm also a little disappointed that it's turning out this way. Unfortunately, I see absolutely no solution given the writing pace.

Maybe, just maybe, if WoW came out sooner than expected AND had enough content for two seasons AND the televsion guys were willing to do a prequel season with Rheagar and such, that would give GRRM 3-4 years to do the last book....

[Lerxst]

Without knowing too much behind the GRRM side of the story, I was kind of wondering what happens when the show finishes before the last novel is out. It seems some of the reads might lose interest - why read it if you know the ending. I also picture some newcomers being utterly confused by it, "Hey, wan't that the show I used to watch? Cool! They made more stories! I should read it and find out what... wait... I already saw this on the show. What the hell??"

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I'm glad he did. So now if something happens to him before he finishes at least we know how it all ends.

[Barristan Whitebeard]

People often forget that there is a very real possibility that the books are never completed. Obviously, I'd rather know the final reading the books, but the sad truth is I'm not sure that it will ever happens. I need to know the end of all these characters that I've invested so much emotionally. I just need it. I respect anybody who decides to wait another 5-8 years to find out the end of the book , it's their prerrogative, after all. But personally, I think it's better for me to have an ending, even a flawed one, than probably stay without any at all.