Did Tywin believe A+J=T ?

[devilish]

Tyrion's dwarfism throws cold water rather than supports this theory for the simple reason that dwarfism is a genetic thing. Now since there's not a lot of Lannisters and Targ dwarfs running around than we presume that one of the families has dwarfism recessive genes. Hence the chances of it popping out is somehow remote. However the chances would greatly increase in case of incest.

Incest within the Targs is heavily documented. It can lead to madness. However as long as we know we've never seen Targ dwarfs haven't we? In the case of the Lannisters, incest is relatively rare ( we've got only two cases). Wev'e got Cersei-Jamie matchup which had produced no dwarfs AND Joanna+Tywin (cousins)

[desire]

Could be possible given the fact how he didn't see Jamie and Cersci or refused to acknowledge it

[Chinoiserie]

No.

But Tywin might have suspected Gerion + Joanna = Tyrion.

What kind of evidence would you have for this theory? Tyrion and Gerion both have a sense of humor? That is all I can think of. It seems rather strange that you seem to think A+J=T is impossible but Gerion being father is a possibilily. Or was this a joke or is there some complicated theory with Daario being Gerion or something?

Regardless weather Aerys or Tywin is Tyrion's father Tyrion pretty much certainly was concieved during the anniversary turney at King's Landing. Joanna clearly would not have visited the city again before she gave birth and I do not see Tywin going to Casterly Rock between this and Tyrion's birth (we know Tywin was at CR when Tyrion was born from Oberyn). Tywin could not visit CR often and there was no reason he would be there between the torney and Tyrion's birth. With Aerys lusting after Joanna there could have easily been some doupt in Tywin's mind when he would not want to think himself as Tyrion's father and the baby having such odd eyes and and hair with light blond and black.

[Woman of War]

Dp, sorry

[Woman of War]

Tyrion's dwarfism throws cold water rather than supports this theory for the simple reason that dwarfism is a genetic thing. Now since there's not a lot of Lannisters and Targ dwarfs running around than we presume that one of the families has dwarfism recessive genesHence the chances of it popping out is somehow remote. However the chances would greatly increase in case of incest.

Incest within the Targs is heavily documented. It can lead to madness. However as long as we know we've never seen Targ dwarfs haven't we? In the case of the Lannisters, incest is relatively rare ( we've got only two cases). Wev'e got Cersei-Jamie matchup which had produced no dwarfs AND Joanna+Tywin (cousins)

Dwarfism as in achondroplasia is dominant: if you have the gene then you have dwarfism, if you don't have it then you can't pass it on.

And a considerable part of people with achondroplasia have two parents of average height, their dwarfism is due to a spontaneous mutation.

[devilish]

Dwarfism as in achondroplasia is dominant: if you have the gene then you have dwarfism if you don't have it then you can't pas it on.

And a considerable part of people with achondroplasia have two parents of average height, their dwarfism is due to a spontaneous mutation.

thanks I did it know that. My impression was that it runs in families.

[Dofs]

No he didn't. IF he did, then it doesn't make sense with his character that was presented to us.

[SolomonBlack]

Dwarfism as in achondroplasia is dominant: if you have the gene then you have dwarfism, if you don't have it then you can't pass it on.

And a considerable part of people with achondroplasia have two parents of average height, their dwarfism is due to a spontaneous mutation.

Yeah, but not like people in Westeros know that.

Ergo more likely to be believed as evidence of unsavory paternity (or some such) in universe... but from a meta perspective is a clue its not the case.

[Ser Greg of House House]

If Tywin believed A+J=T, he wouldn't hate Tyrion. He would kill him.

T+J=T with J dying in childbirth makes perfect sense and is 100% consistent with what we know of Tywin, Joanna, and Tyrion's actions and characterizations. A+J=T is a theory in search of a mystery.

Unless he really takes the whole 'no kinslaying' thing very seriously. Tyrion would still be "kin" because Joanna was also a Lannister. He could send him away, of course, and not kill him. But maybe he thought that would raise suspicion. Or Joanna was raped but loved her baby and asked Tywin not to do anything to him. Tywin did love Joanna, after all.

I'm not saying that this is likely at all. But it's not impossible that Tywin knew A+J=T. That would actually be a good reason for Martin to choose to make Joanna a Lannister.

[addicted to snow]

Tywin thought that All his children were the Mad King's... or at least he had a strong feeling that they were...

Tywin is Sterile... He just gas no way to prove it... This is why he sleeps with whores nightly, be desperately wants to get one pregnant to, in his mind, prove that his kids are his...

[UnmaskedLurker]

The evidence for what Tywin knew is not entirely clear -- but it seems to support the theory that Tywin suspected but could not be sure that Tyrion was really the son of Aerys. Tywin's ego prevented him from fully accepting the truth but deep down, I think he knew, which is why his last words were that Tyrion was not his son.

As to whether there can be two "secret Targs", I would argue that GRRM needs two secret Targs because he needs 3 heads of the dragon and only one known Targ (Dany) is a feasible candidate for a head of the dragon. So the other two heads must be "hidden". I know many people don't like the idea of two secret Targs, but consider that what likely will be revealed is that Jon -- who thought he was a bastard, is really the true-born son of Rhaegar, while Tyrion, who thought he was the true-born son of High Lord is really a royal bastard. I think GRRM would like such symmetry.

The evidence for AJT is fairly strong. In a case of shameless self promotion, visit my OP titled A+J=T v. 4 (click on linked title to get to the OP), where I detail the evidence in favor of the theory and address many of the counter-arguments.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Tywin thought that All his children were the Mad King's... or at least he had a strong feeling that they were...

Any evidence to back this up. I mean at all?

[bb1180]

It seems unlikely to me that Tywin would have truly suspected it, as it would be against his characterization to tolerate such a thing. Had he believed it, I would think that Tyrion would have met with some unfortunate accident in his younger years.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Tywin believes it's possible. Part of him even wants it to be true because then he didn't father a deformed child. But he's never fully believed it, because it hurt too much to think of Joanna either willingly sleeping with Aerys, or being forced/coerced and keeping that to herself.

He would not have had an abortion attempted. The baby was still his kin, and Joanna's child, regardless of paternity.

GRRM added that about Joanna going to KL around about the time that Tyrion might have been conceived to the world book for a reason. Now, that doesn't mean the reason would be that Tyrion is Aerys' son. It could just be that he wants the possibility of it known. If Tyrion shows up in Westeros on a dragon, everyone (characters, that is) is going to start thinking he's part Targ even if he's 100% Lannister. That might be the entire point.

Just think of Tyrion's thoughts. Which is worse, being the son of Tywin or being the son of Mad Aerys? Will anyone treat him differently if the think he's half-Targ? Would that be better or worse? We could get some seriously interesting scenes out of this!

Excellent post!!!

And for those saying ther eis no history of dwarfism in the Targaryen family....well there is no history of it in the Lannister family either, but it still happened.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Excellent post!!!

And for those saying ther eis no history of dwarfism in the Targaryen family....well there is no history of it in the Lannister family either, but it still happened.

GRRM has stated that genetics in Westeros are different than genetics in the real world. So even if dwarfism is a dominant gene inherited trait in the real world, that means nothing regarding how someone becomes a dwarf on Westeros.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

The evidence for what Tywin knew is not entirely clear -- but it seems to support the theory that Tywin suspected but could not be sure that Tyrion was really the son of Aerys. Tywin's ego prevented him from fully accepting the truth but deep down, I think he knew, which is why his last words were that Tyrion was not his son.

As to whether there can be two "secret Targs", I would argue that GRRM needs two secret Targs because he needs 3 heads of the dragon and only one known Targ (Dany) is a feasible candidate for a head of the dragon. So the other two heads must be "hidden". I know many people don't like the idea of two secret Targs, but consider that what likely will be revealed is that Jon -- who thought he was a bastard, is really the true-born son of Rhaegar, while Tyrion, who thought he was the true-born son of High Lord is really a royal bastard. I think GRRM would like such symmetry.

The evidence for AJT is fairly strong. In a case of shameless self promotion, visit my OP titled A+J=T v. 4 (click on linked title to get to the OP), where I detail the evidence in favor of the theory and address many of the counter-arguments.

^This.

OP, why would 2 secret Targs be silly? and why is the notion that Jon is legit preposterous?

[WildBlood]

I have not been a fan of this theory since the first version oh so long ago... Here is the final lines of each to each other.

Tywin: You ... you are no ... no son of mine.
Tyrion: Now that’s where you’re wrong, Father. Why, I believe I’m you writ small. Do me a kindness now, and die quickly. I have a ship to catch.

This doesn't sound like Tywin is giving some some huge news, more like "you are an embarrassment". And Tyrion saying oh no, I am in fact your son, cements it. Where is the overwhelming evidence to the contrary? Tywin would not have raised Tyrion if he was aerys' bastard. No way. No how. That contradicts everything we know about Tywin.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I have not been a fan of this theory since the first version oh so long ago... Here is the final lines of each to each other.

Tywin: You ... you are no ... no son of mine.

Tyrion: Now that’s where you’re wrong, Father. Why, I believe I’m you writ small. Do me a kindness now, and die quickly. I have a ship to catch.

This doesn't sound like Tywin is giving some some huge news, more like "you are an embarrassment". And Tyrion saying oh no, I am in fact your son, cements it. Where is the overwhelming evidence to the contrary? Tywin would not have raised Tyrion if he was aerys' bastard. No way. No how. That contradicts everything we know about Tywin.

Generally, when GRRM gives clues to a mystery, there are two possible meanings. There is the straight forward interpretation, and then there is the underlying meaning the serves as a clue. A good example is when Jon states that he cannot sword fight with Joffrey because a bastard is not allowed to harm a prince. At face value, that statement is simply a statement that Joffrey is the prince and Jon cannot play swords because he is a bastard and would risk hurting the prince. Once the readers find out that Joffrey really is a bastard, that statement serves as a clue that Jon really is the prince.

Similarly, this exchange between Tywin and Tyrion can be read as you read it. At face value, it is exactly how it should be understood. But once a reader realizes the possibility that Tyrion could be the son of Aerys, this exchange becomes a clue that Tyrion really is not the son of Tywin. It become understood as a clue that Tywin was speaking the literal truth -- that Tyrion is not his son. And Tyrion is saying that he has become the way he is because Tyrion BELIEVES he is the son of Tywin. This structure is how clues work with GRRM. There will almost always be a surface interpretation that does not serve as a clue. Only a "deeper" reading causes the reader to understand the nature of the real clue.

[WildBlood]

Generally, when GRRM gives clues to a mystery, there are two possible meanings. There is the straight forward interpretation, and then there is the underlying meaning the serves as a clue. A good example is when Jon states that he cannot sword fight with Joffrey because a bastard is not allowed to harm a prince. At face value, that statement is simply a statement that Joffrey is the prince and Jon cannot play swords because he is a bastard and would risk hurting the prince. Once the readers find out that Joffrey really is a bastard, that statement serves as a clue that Jon really is the prince.

Similarly, this exchange between Tywin and Tyrion can be read as you read it. At face value, it is exactly how it should be understood. But once a reader realizes the possibility that Tyrion could be the son of Aerys, this exchange becomes a clue that Tyrion really is not the son of Tywin. It become understood as a clue that Tywin was speaking the literal truth -- that Tyrion is not his son. And Tyrion is saying that he has become the way he is because Tyrion BELIEVES he is the son of Tywin. This structure is how clues work with GRRM. There will almost always be a surface interpretation that does not serve as a clue. Only a "deeper" reading causes the reader to understand the nature of the real clue.

I have read the novels 5 times, and I do not subscribe to this one. Personally, I think it is ridiculous. So there is no way I believe it until GRRM puts it in plain english. Aside from that I call shenanigans.

[Gibzit]

Excellent post!!!

And for those saying ther eis no history of dwarfism in the Targaryen family....well there is no history of it in the Lannister family either, but it still happened.

Unlike the Targ family where we have a full family tree from Aenar the Exile until Dany, we don't have the 100% full family tree of the Lannisters from Loren the Last, so might be there was a dwarf Lannister we never heard of but there is 0% chance there was a dwarf Targaryen (before the doom at least).