Jon Snow: The Ultimate Red Herring?

[Mr Smith]

WIth HBO's Game of Thrones storming forwards at an alarming rate, people are starting to talk about the ending to our epic story more and more. We are now literally one year from seeing characters take directions we have speculated about for four years now (at least those of us continuing to watch the show are). An excellent article from winteriscoming.net provided a fascinating discussion of the destined culmination of A Song of Ice and Fire, and specifically, A Game of Thrones. The full article can be found here:

http://winteriscoming.net/2014/12/08/how-will-game-of-thrones-end-look-at-genre-heroic-fantasy/

It's main intention is to discuss whether GRRM's epic will conform to the overarching structure of 'high fantasy', or whether it will go out of its way to avoid such a template, an approach I imagine many on this forum would be expecting. Specifically, will we have a hero (or heroine?) becoming the key individual in bringing to an end the threat of the White Walkers, thereby fulfilling a prophecy, and ending up upon the Iron Throne?

Whatever you think of Daenerys Targaryen and Jon Snow, those characters are the two most likely to vaguely fill that role. But as this article suggests, and as many on this forum have alluded to, its unlikely that our much beloved story will take that path. Martin does conform to several key aspects of the high-fantasy genre: he still uses prophecy, he still includes magic as a key plot device, and there's still an overarching threat to all of our characters (thought admittedly not driven by a single persona of evil). But he has certainly sought to challenge our expectations of the genre, and differentiate his story (and in particular his plot twists) from what we have come to expect. This has lead me to seriously re-evaluate the role of one particular character who, in any other high fantasy story, would be the ultimate hero, leader and saivour: Jon Snow. After all, he fits the bill. He was born out of power, but has a secret heritage, has had power thrust upon him, only to find he's well suited for it (maybe), has experienced coming of age moments, and may yet be a good fit for a prophecy thats been floating around. But all this is exactly why I'm starting to think he isn't the hero he's been quietly set up to be. Wouldn't it be so classically Martin to build up Jon as the ultimate saviour, only to find he is actually an elaborate red herring?

And no, I'm not trying to say here that R+L=J is a ruse. I'm 100% convinced Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. But wouldn't it be all the more compelling, and entirely more Martin-esque, to have that plot twist at last revealed, only to realise that in the end, it doesn't actually mean anything, because Jon is in no position to influence the plot?

There is of course, on caveat to this theory. Because Dany has also been set up as a potential saviour. Given that she's arguably been the character around which a greater sense of destiny has been built, one might argue that she is being set up as the red herring, so when Jon finally comes to the fore, it's more unexpected.

And that might have been Martin's intention once. But it's not entirely unreasonable to expect recent events have changed his mind. Because R+L=J is the next thing to cannon now, and Martin, for all his talk of not digging to deep into social media, and not wanting to change the story based on what the fans think, surely knows that. Admittedly, it may be a reach to suggest that he would change the fate of one of his most important characters on such a basis. But it is worth noting that Martin doesn't have a completely concrete plan with this story; he writes based on the way the characters and the plot evolves, so it IS conceivable that he might change a character's fate based on the needs of the plot, and in particular, a satisfying ending. But even if Martin hasn't ever changed his plans for Jon, it's still possible he's a Red Herring. The real question is how.

Ever since I knew about R+L=J, I always felt like Jon had a special destiny in this story. As a result, his final chapter in ADWD always felt a little off to me. It didn't make much difference in my mind that he probably survived by warging into Ghost. He's still in no position to have a meaningful impact on events, or be a significant part of the story when the truth about his parentage does eventually come to light. Why stab him? To have him reborn amidst salt and smoke, thereby fulfilling a key prophecy? Perhaps. But as I've already mentioned, that doesn't appear to be Martin's way. So I can reach only one realistic conclusion: he's a red herring. He's not meant to be reborn, he's stuck in Ghost's body for good. And we, the readers, will be waiting in anticipation for his rebirth after R+L=J is revealed, only to find it comes to nothing. Jon isn't the saviour we're looking for, because there isn't one in this world. Martin would thus provide an ultimate counterpoint to the expectations of high fantasy, and a hauntingly fitting anticlimax in the same swing. In a genre where heroes provide such telling blows, Martin gives us the daggerfalls of lowly Bowen Marsh and co as one of the most significant actions in the fate of the seven kingdoms.

There's still Dany, of course. There are a couple of ways her character could go. With attention having swung so emphatically to Jon with a dramatic R+L=J reveal, Dany might now provide the perfect foil, and fulfil her role as the first central female hero of a fantasy epic of this size. Alternatively, she could head exactly in the direction the last chapter of ADWD was taking her, emerge as something of an antagonist, and go down in a blaze of glory. In the interests of not making things too dark, the White Walkers will be stopped, but not in the conventional fantasy manner (most likely Bran will play a key role here). In the end, Azor Ahai, the Prince that was Promised, and any other prophecy that was thrown from person to person is nothing but dust, and Westeros is left for the survivors to pick up the pieces, in a web of bittersweet resolutions and uncomfortable compromises.

This, I feel, might just be the ending the story needs, if not the ending the more indulgent parts of us want. I'll admit, this theory on Jon's fate is one of the more crackpot ones flying around here, but its really intended to get the pot stirring. Specifically, its time to star asking whether the expectation that most of us have held, that Jon will be in some way resurrected, and go on to fight the White Walkers and have a telling role to play in the ultimate resolution of the story, is really in keeping with the tone of A Song of Ice and Fire. If this does sound like a complete load of rubbish, please be kind in saying so. Share your thoughts!

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Because I have short attention span could you explain in few simple words what do you mean?

[Mr Smith]

Because I have short attention span could you explain in few simple words what do you mean?

Apologies, I know I dragged on. To put it simply, we (the readers) spend the entirety of WOW wondering when and how Jon will be resurrected/revived, during which R+L=J is revealed, only fueling our expectation that Jon is crucial to our story. But in the end, he never does return in a way that is meaningful, and by the end of WOW, or at some point in ADOS, this is made abundantly clear to us (for example, Ghost dies). Thus, Jon does not have the destiny we all expected he might, but is in fact another Red Herring, a final proof offered by Martin that this story is not about heroes, and that it is rather human beings that determine the course of history, rather than some overarching plan or prophecy.

[ummester]

Mr Smith,

the article you posted in your OP doesn't consider the most likely resolution for ASoIaF - that each of the primary characters, Jon, Dany, Bran, Tyrion, Arya and so on - are based on characters from mythological pantheons and have their own part to play in a kind of apocalyptic end game.

I am down with Jon being dead dead, however and never finding out if R+L=J is real or not - that would be quite humorous.

But even if Jon is dead dead - there are still a lot of character arcs and mythology to resolve.

[Ser Pounce's Mum]

I like the implications for the narrative as a whole - I do not like the implications for the character Jon Snow. Which is to say, I'd like this theory far more if I liked Jon less *lol*

Because yes, it makes an awful lot of sense. Martin being Martin is and has always been the only thing that keeps me from 100% believing that Jon will come back, but this is the first time someone put my problem into words this well, so thanks for that.

That said, I still think that since "R+L=J is the next thing to canon" only for maybe some 5% of the fans (let's be honest here, for your everyday fan out there us forumites are obsessive weirdos) a majority of the fans, especially those influenced by the series, still see Dany as the main built-up-saviour. Does that do anything to make Jon's survival more likely? Please?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Well GRRM said that he isn't dead and that he will learn about his parentage.

I believe that Dany because of her chicks has more red herrings qualities than Jon.

[Mr Smith]

Mr Smith,

the article you posted in your OP doesn't consider the most likely resolution for ASoIaF - that each of the primary characters, Jon, Dany, Bran, Tyrion, Arya and so on - are based on characters from mythological pantheons and have their own part to play in a kind of apocalyptic end game.

I am down with Jon being dead dead, however and never finding out if R+L=J is real or not - that would be quite humorous.

But even if Jon is dead dead - there are still a lot of character arcs and mythology to resolve.

But that was the very point I was making; that it's more likely that the primary characters aren't players in an apocalyptic end game, as you call it, because Martin has been spending most of these books defying such high fantasy cliches, and his story is more about people and the influence their actions have. I'd recommend reading the article I linked to get a better idea of what I mean.

[Mr Smith]

Well GRRM said that he isn't dead and that he will learn about his parentage.

I believe that Dany because of her chicks has more red herrings qualities than Jon.

Didn't know this. In all honesty its a good bet I'm wrong about this theory (until recently I always thought Jon would play a crucial role), but I think it should provoke thought about what the endgame is, and whether these characters are meant to be the heroes we sometimes build them up to be.

[Syphon the Sanitator]

Well, maybe it doesn't matter at all. Maybe neither Daenerys or Jon (assuming he is indeed a Targaryen) will end up taking the throne of Westeros. Daenerys doesn't seem to have any clue what she is doing at all and Jon is dead until we hear otherwise. So why then? Why are we so focused on getting a Targaryen back on the throne anyway?

Maybe there will be an entirely new dynasty. I'm thinking it won't be Starks, for some reason. They never wanted it. Ne wanted to stay in the North, and although Sansa might be able to become a good queen, I doubt she will get there. Sorry to say, I think she will go all Stoneheart on us when she has a modicum of power and then get bumped off by some lordlings who don't care much for the way she does things.

[Mr Smith]

I like the implications for the narrative as a whole - I do not like the implications for the character Jon Snow. Which is to say, I'd like this theory far more if I liked Jon less *lol*

Because yes, it makes an awful lot of sense. Martin being Martin is and has always been the only thing that keeps me from 100% believing that Jon will come back, but this is the first time someone put my problem into words this well, so thanks for that.

That said, I still think that since "R+L=J is the next thing to canon" only for maybe some 5% of the fans (let's be honest here, for your everyday fan out there us forumites are obsessive weirdos) a majority of the fans, especially those influenced by the series, still see Dany as the main built-up-saviour. Does that do anything to make Jon's survival more likely? Please?

Haha I know how you feel, Jon's always been one of my favourite characters. But it's also very important to me that one character doesn't become more important than the story Martin is trying to tell, a big part of which is a very compelling evaluation of human nature.

As far as Dany is concerned, I do think you've grossly underestimated how polarising Dany is as a character, particularly on these forums. There are as many people around her who think she's pure evil as they are who think the sun shines out of her arse. Based on her ADWD arc, I personally believe she is being set up as an antagonist to a lot of characters we care about in Westeros.

[ummester]

But that was the very point I was making; that it's more likely that the primary characters aren't players in an apocalyptic end game, as you call it, because Martin has been spending most of these books defying such high fantasy cliches, and his story is more about people and the influence their actions have. I'd recommend reading the article I linked to get a better idea of what I mean.

I did read the article - that is what I was commenting on

Thus I end up with three possibilities for the Game of Thrones ending:

• it embraces heroic fantasy, with heroes, dragons, and wizards combining to end the supernatural threat and restore order, or…

it subverts heroic fantasy—perhaps Dany wins the Iron Throne, but becomes a terrible Queen, or…

it rejects heroic fantasy, letting petty politics and Red Wedding-like events continue to dominate the story, leading to a deliberately unsatisfying ending.

possibility 4 - it was never about modern heroic fantasy, or subverting tropes - it is a retelling of pagan mythology, from the POV perspective of pagan heroes and villains.

[Mr Smith]

possibility 4 - it was never about modern heroic fantasy, or subverting tropes - it is a retelling of pagan mythology, with a twist and ends in line with that.

Ah yes, I remember this theory now. To that I would ask this: do you really believe Martin has adhered so strictly to mythology that he would determine the fate of his own characters based on said mythology? I would argue that while he draws from mythology, it certainly doesn't define his story.

[ummester]

Ah yes, I remember this theory now. To that I would ask this: do you really believe Martin has adhered so strictly to mythology that he would determine the fate of his own characters based on said mythology? I would argue that while he draws from mythology, it certainly doesn't define his story.

I think that if he tells pagan mythology from a different perspective, effectively subverting it, the story will feel fresh enough that people wont know or care about the origins.

[Jô Maltese]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102938-a-case-for-stannis-or-the-red-herrings-theory/

:cool4:

[Syphon the Sanitator]

As far as Dany is concerned, I do think you've grossly underestimated how polarising Dany is as a character, particularly on these forums. There are as many people around her who think she's pure evil as they are who think the sun shines out of her arse. Based on her ADWD arc, I personally believe she is being set up as an antagonist to a lot of characters we care about in Westeros.

You might be on to something here. I think that her attempts to do right will just end up with her sliding down a slippery slope of morality. For instance, opening up the fighting pits. A regular person would think "Okay, regardless of being free or not, a warrior in there fights to the death. That's not okay."

But now that Dany has reopened them for anybody willing to fight in them, she has allowed the bloodlust back into the city. I think that is going to keep her sliding farther and farther into the bog of ethics and morality, untill at one point she does things that no longer seem evil to her that are completely opposed to everything others believe in.

Also, I like to think that Dany will go insane later on as well. It seems that she is regular now, but in time, who knows? Maybe the weight of her sins will catch up with her, or she might be called to account for all she has done by something else than her own conscience. Who knows?

[Mr Smith]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102938-a-case-for-stannis-or-the-red-herrings-theory/

:cool4:

Hahaha, never been on the Stannis bandwagon I'm afraid to say.

You do a good job of running through the possibilities, but what you don't discuss (and what I was trying to allude to), is that there is no 'hero' or 'saviour', so to speak. Martin's story is not a story about heroes, or their destinies. It's a story about people. And anything can happen to people. Including getting the fuck stabbed out of them :laugh:

[Ser Pounce's Mum]

As far as Dany is concerned, I do think you've grossly underestimated how polarising Dany is as a character, particularly on these forums. There are as many people around her who think she's pure evil as they are who think the sun shines out of her arse. Based on her ADWD arc, I personally believe she is being set up as an antagonist to a lot of characters we care about in Westeros.

Exactly - on these forums. Alas, my point was that the people on these forums are a vast minority among aSoIaF-fans in general.

For example, I know exactly five people in "real life" who consider themselves aSoIaF-fans, but none of them are on the forums, none of them had heard or thought of R+L=J until I told them about it, and all of them think of Dany as the hero and future queen of the story. And since I consider those five an average sample of "normal fans", I think that IF Martin ever changed anything about his writing because of fans' reactions, it WOULD be because of theirs - not ours. We are the minority, and we'll just have to deal with it (and Dany-haters are a minority even in this minority, although a very vocal one).

Personally I agree with your personal opinion ;)

[SomeFremen]

Well...since GRRM knows how to play us... we can't be sure of anything.

Even a Jon rebirth could still be a red herring.

I suppose it could be fun (for GRRM) to make the Lannisters (Jamie Cercei and Tyrion) into Targs and make them into the three headed dragon, or some other trio and realize just then that there was a breadcrumb path of clues.

However their own self-prophecies, in my opinion, will happen -> Daenerys probably dies way north and Jon will visit the crypts and finds something there. Also Daenerys's dragons must be vital, otherwise it sucks, Bran must be vital, otherwise it sucks and another ice+fire blood person must be real ! or else it sucks as well. Mostly I'm trying to say that everything related to Ice and Fire should be very critical to any finale we might get. And Dany and Jon must be important until the end...where sacrifices will be made, very possibly.

However the material is so complex that even if we have dug enough and found the truth we can't be certain before we see it happen in the books.

[Jô Maltese]

Hahaha, never been on the Stannis bandwagon I'm afraid to say.

You do a good job of running through the possibilities, but what you don't discuss (and what I was trying to allude to), is that there is no 'hero' or 'saviour', so to speak. Martin's story is not a story about heroes, or their destinies. It's a story about people. And anything can happen to people. Including getting the fuck stabbed out of them :laugh:

This thread was more a nudge to a former member supporting Stannis than anything serious, and as I said in the P.S. I am more enclined to stop at the 4th layer. Indeed, I can see Dany and Jon fulfilling most of the classic clichés of Epic Fantasy by saving the world, having a romance, being recognised as the legit rulers etc but not making it in the end (death or no more desire to rule). And in stead of those 2 I can see Tyrion and Sansa becoming the other, unexpected song of Ice and Fire in the end (Tyrion is a dragonseed IMO).

[Nolan Clegane]

The Dany haters are a minority. This still baffles me. Her arc is treading down down down!

ETA: meaning becoming the antagonist of the story.