gash is back Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 this always struck me as completely ridiculous. anyone can get off scot free of the most heinous crimes simply by having a total bad ass in his corner. like if you had the mountain/hound/bronn etc as your man couldn't you basically be a criminal asshole your whole life? it's the champion bit that is troublesome. trial by combat has existed in various societies over the years, but has there ever been the inclusion of the champion clause? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManderlysPies Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Well Tywin did have those guys and was a criminal asshole, so yeah it protects guys like him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bustard Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 I wish I had answers for you but I also find this bothersome for the same reasons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dames do Moan Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Can anyone name a champion? I know we see a few instances but that seems to be women (most likely for Cersei), Tyrion or for people who have died, I.e. Joffrey, Jon Arryn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 I imagine the champion aspect was originally intended for women who are not supposed to be fighters. And possibly for men too important to do their own dying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 this always struck me as completely ridiculous. anyone can get off scot free of the most heinous crimes simply by having a total bad ass in his corner. like if you had the mountain/hound/bronn etc as your man couldn't you basically be a criminal asshole your whole life? That's assuming the judiciary kept playing fair and nice. And the victims' families also kept playing fair and nice. Notice that the institution of vengeance, as an alternative form of seeking justice, is very much alive in Westeros. Also, for gleeful repeat offenders, openly exploiting the system, the judge in charge could always skip formalities and say "guards, just shoot the asshole already". And, while the realm rose in rebellion when Rickard and Brandon Starks' laws were denied, they sure as hell wouldn't do the same for the likes of Ramsay Bolton. it's the champion bit that is troublesome. trial by combat has existed in various societies over the years, but has there ever been the inclusion of the champion clause? At least for those who couldn't (or weren't supposed to because propriety) represent themselves, yes. Women. Clergy. The disabled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 this always struck me as completely ridiculous. anyone can get off scot free of the most heinous crimes simply by having a total bad ass in his corner. like if you had the mountain/hound/bronn etc as your man couldn't you basically be a criminal asshole your whole life? it's the champion bit that is troublesome. trial by combat has existed in various societies over the years, but has there ever been the inclusion of the champion clause? Yes it was fairly common in medieval England. Clergy had to have a champion as they couldn't fight. They were used by the accusers and the defendant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gash is back Posted May 22, 2015 Author Share Posted May 22, 2015 Yes it was fairly common in medieval England. Clergy had to have a champion as they couldn't fight. They were used by the accusers and the defendant. interesting. any links on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 It's to prove guilt so it's not as easy as that to get away with stuff. If you stab someone in front of everyone you couldn't request a trial by combat. I think if you keep getting yourself into situations where you're on trial for something so dire that you need a champion and everyone suspects you but they don't have any evidence again and again they'd probably just hang you to save them the hassle of doing it all over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion the kitten Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 I think you can only have a champion when one side has a champion or when your a women, because the faith don't seem to agree with female fighters.In Tyrion's trial he seemed to manipulate events so it was trial by combat, catelyn thought lysa played right into his hands and I kept thinking "why he only said he was highborn and had the right to do that" but the more I thought about it the playing into his hands was when she named a champion it allowed him to do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal-L Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 I imagine the champion aspect was originally intended for women who are not supposed to be fighters. And possibly for men too important to do their own dying. I believed so. Otherwise I always wondered how would thing had turned had Lyonel Baratheon won his trial against Ser Duncan the Tall. I mean even after Lord Baratheon yields the king made amends in marrying princess Rhaella to his son Ormund so what would have happened if Lyonel Baratheon had won ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Maester Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Obviously the Gods will know which part is innocent and will favour that party. It's superstitious nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen of dragonstone Posted May 22, 2015 Share Posted May 22, 2015 Obviously the Gods will know which part is innocent and will favour that party. It's superstitious nonsense.Well i think the idea of it is also whether the gods like you or not.Sandor survived his because he had the potential to be a decent guy. Tyrion wasn't really caught up in sketchy stuff when his first trial by combat took place.When his second one came though he was playing the game of thrones and was involved with politics. He also started to show his true colours, his colours being him craving power. The gods didn't like that and decided to punish him.He's now wandering about the free cities an exile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 I believed so. Otherwise I always wondered how would thing had turned had Lyonel Baratheon won his trial against Ser Duncan the Tall. I mean even after Lord Baratheon yields the king made amends in marrying princess Rhaella to his son Ormund so what would have happened if Lyonel Baratheon had won ? No idea what would have happened if Lyonel had won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
of man and wolf Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Yeah, even without a champion cluase it's silly. The better fighter ON THAT DAY wins and thus the loser is found guilty of whatever. If not, and the loser is the prosecutors choice fighter, the defendant is found innocent. It is just silly superstitious nonsense. Forget trying to find facts and evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 interesting. any links on this? For a quick read? Not really. I'd start with the wikipedia entry. There's prolly some stuff you can jump off of. Most of what I've read about it I only have in hard copy. Edit: http://www.peterleeson.com/Trial_by_Battle.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alester Florent Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 Yeah, even without a champion cluase it's silly. The better fighter ON THAT DAY wins and thus the loser is found guilty of whatever. If not, and the loser is the prosecutors choice fighter, the defendant is found innocent. It is just silly superstitious nonsense. Forget trying to find facts and evidence. It's the sort of thing that happens when you don't have proper forensic science. There's no point trying to work out exactly what happened because unless you have any eyewitnesses nothing can ever be proven even to a fairly minimal level. Even if you do have eyewitnesses, in this sort of society they are easily bought and especially when nobles are concerned may have conflicting loyalties. Even if you can produce actual evidence, assembling a disinterested jury is all but impossible and judges will inevitably have leanings one way or the other. Trial by combat is actually a fairly neat way of settling the issue, since it helps resolve the accusation one way or another. Given that it seems many of the issues that go to trial by combat are essentially private prosecutions, and even Tyrion's prosecution for high treason is brought essentially by Cersei rather than by "the crown", although the distinction is pretty questionable. If not settled judicially these are the sort of disputes that could cause small wars so settling them in single combat isn't entirely unreasonable. Obviously it's a system built on pragmatism rather than justice, but justice is pretty negligible in Westeros anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyenon15 Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 Seems like its there for important/noble people, if a noble is on trial in KL maybe all his local bannermen rebel against the king if their Lord is found guilty. Instead of a battle where huge amounts of men die, just have one match to decide it all.it's probably not something just anyone can do. Who is going to fight to the death for you if you aren't a person who is kind of a big deal? Against trained knights?If a commoner asked for it the king tell them to shut up up and toss them in the cells, unless he was bored and wanted to watch it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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