Tysha as Tywin's Moral Event Horizon?

[LordPathera]

So Tywin doesn't approve of Tyrion marrying a commoner? It makes sense for him to be angry about it.

Annul the marriage and scold Tyrion about it? I suppose that would be justified given the social implications and that Tyrion did this behind Tywin's back.

Order the gang-rape of the poor girl and force Tyrion to watch and participate? Lie to Tyrion that she was just "a whore" as though that makes what happened to her less disgusting and horrible? Then send her off to "where ever whores go even though Tysha is not even a whore?" Expressing no remorse or sympathy for what he did to Tysha or to his son (even if he hates him)?

How is this not a Moral Event Horizon for Tywin?

For the record: Moral Event Horizon refers to the point in a story where a character commits an act so vile, irredeemable, cruel and unforgivable that their audience loses any ability to relate or sympathize with them.

Examples: Tarkin using the Death Star to blow up Alderaan and it's billions of people;

Gregor Clegane killing infant Aegon and raping and murdering Elia Martell with her son's blood on his hands;

Ramsey Snow/Bolton betraying Rodrik Cassel, burning Winterfell and torturing/castrating Theon Greyjoy for fun;

or Walder Frey and Roose Bolton betraying Robb Stark with the former doing so over a comparatively small slight. (Breaking marriage contracts doesn't make it justified to betray and murder people under Guest Right)

[EastTymor]

Who is sympathetic to Tywin? Most everybody agrees he is a morally bad character. People debate the intelligence, motives, and consequences of Tywin's action, but rarely if ever their morality.

[LordPathera]

Who is sympathetic to Tywin? Most everybody agrees he is a morally bad character. People debate the intelligence, motives, and consequences of Tywin's action, but rarely if ever their morality.

I've seen plenty of folks brush aside the Tysha episode for some reason.

Or worst, downplay the episode to this was necessary for Tywin to do.

[Humble Maester]

I've seen plenty of folks brush aside the Tysha episode for some reason.

Or worst, downplay the episode to this was necessary for Tywin to do.

Well, the forum is full of all sorts of people but most sane people, even those who thing Tywin is a great and fascinating character like I do, can't in any way justify what Tywin did to Tysha (unlike most of the other morally evil things he did). So I guess you are shooting at a straw-man a bit, or trying to debate morons, neither of which are really good options.

Of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to analyze the motive Tywin had for doing what he did and his point of view on the matter (Lannisters prestige being threatened, traumatic childhood due to weakling of a lord for father etc.). Trying to understand doesn't mean trying to justify it though.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

How is this not a Moral Event Horizon for Tywin?

For the record: Moral Event Horizon refers to the point in a story where a character commits an act so vile, irredeemable, cruel and unforgivable that their audience loses any ability to relate or sympathize with them.

Wouldn't you put his destruction of the Reynes and Tarbecks as his moral event horizon?

For the record do you not find it boring trying to police other peoples opinions on fictional characters?

I love reading about Octavius, Julius and the Roman Republic/Empire which involves worse actions that what Tywin committed. As do the many fascinating stories from the ancient and medieval world. Enjoying them and being fascinated by such real life individuals does not mean you endorse their actions.

What happened to Tysha was morally reprehensible. Sadly I dont think she was the only smallfolk member abused in this manner, this is a culture that only recently stopped practising first night.

The smallfolk are downtrodden, women especially. Look at how Jeyne Poole was made into a prostitute by Littlefinger and she was minor nobility, I imagine many young smallfolk girls have shared a similar fate. This is the world they live in.

[LordPathera]

Well, the forum is full of all sorts of people but most sane people, even those who thing Tywin is a great and fascinating character like I do, can't in any way justify what Tywin did to Tysha (unlike most of the other morally evil things he did). So I guess you are shooting at a straw-man a bit, or trying to debate morons, neither of which are really good options.

Of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to analyze the motive Tywin had for doing what he did and his point of view on the matter (Lannisters prestige being threatened, traumatic childhood due to weakling of a lord for father etc.). Trying to understand doesn't mean trying to justify it though.

Of course, not. Tywin is one of my favorite characters.

But I have seen a trend with certain fans where they absolve Tywin, Cersei or other characters of all moral culpability just because "the world isn't fair". Or that "Good and Evil" are childish beliefs and therefore there would be no such thing as a Moral Event Horizon. Despite the fact that the story of ASOIAF itself would surprisingly disagree despite stating that most people and situations are more gray than they are black or white.

Wouldn't you put his destruction of the Reynes and Tarbecks as his moral event horizon?

For the record do you not find it boring trying to police other peoples opinions on fictional characters?

I love reading about Octavius, Julius and the Roman Republic/Empire which involves worse actions that what Tywin committed. As do the many fascinating stories from the ancient and medieval world. Enjoying them and being fascinated by such real life individuals does not mean you endorse their actions.

What happened to Tysha was morally reprehensible. Sadly I dont think she was the only smallfolk member abused in this manner, this is a culture that only recently stopped practising first night.

The smallfolk are downtrodden, women especially. Look at how Jeyne Poole was made into a prostitute by Littlefinger and she was minor nobility, I imagine many young smallfolk girls have shared a similar fate. This is the world they live in.

Never denied that Westeros sucked for women and smallfolk.

What do you mean by police other people's opinions? I was raising a question on whether Tywin's treatment of Tysha could be considered a Moral "Point of No Return" for the character and whether he'd still count as being "Gray" in the eyes of the audience.

The Castamere Revolt was an incident which was provoked by rebellious subjects who'd bullied and terrorized Tywin's father by even threatening his family members. Tytos was weak and enabled this to happen which gave the Reynes and Tarbecks the confidence to try to continue their "strong-arming" against Tywin. To preserve the safety and power of his family, Tywin had to respond with force and to do so in such a way that no other Westerlands Subject would ever question the power of House Lannister.

Wiping out the two houses was a harsh and brutal action, but in the context of this situation I can't say that it renders Tywin completely "evil". I don't condone the deaths of the innocent children that may have been slain; but I won't necessarily condemn Tywin either. He was doing what he felt was necessary and the context of the situation even morally/ethically favors Tywin to a degree considering that the Reynes and the Tarbecks were in the wrong and started the whole conflict anyway.

On the other hand, I don't see how the Tysha incident was necessary or even justifiable in any way. So I'm questioning if this could be considered Tywin's MEH because of this.

PS: For the Record, War's one of my favorite historical subjects to study. Particularly concerning the Crusades or World War II because of the many ethical/moral Gray Areas that are present in the motivations, beliefs and actions of the participating nation's leaders and commanders. Plus the tactics and strategies involved.

[Dofs]

I am actually agreeing that Rains of Castamere was not Tywin's MEH. The bastards had it coming. Tysha's rape though is undoubtedly the thing that made Tywin a complete scum.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

On the other hand, I don't see how the Tysha incident was necessary or even justifiable in any way. So I'm questioning if this could be considered Tywin's MEH because of this.

What do you think Tywin would have done to a peasant who ran off with Cersei and married her?

He most likely would have executed him or if he was feeling charitable send him to the Wall like Lord Rowan did to Daeron for sleeping with his daughter.

Many of the actions in this series are not necessary but Tywin as Lord of the Westerlands punished both Tyrion and Tysha for forgetting their place.

The punishment was primarily a lesson for Tyrion but the punishment was meted on Tysha in much the same way that nobility in medieval times would have whipping boys who would take a beating when young Princes did something wrong.

I feel sorry for Tysha. She was an orphan who was most likely to scared to say no to Tyrion when he asked her to marry him as smallfolk had been taught to obey the nobility and Tyrion is the son of the most powerful man for hundreds and hundreds of miles. She would have been scared of the consequence of saying no.

What is especially heartbreaking is that despite Tyrions claims of 'love' he watched while she was gangraped and didn't realise she was not a prostitute and there against her will or ask if she was OK and she did not ask for his help, thought he was a willing part of it. Both just assumed that she was a whore and he was a gangrapist.

What is also sad is that even once Tyrion had learnt this information and is once again around prostitutes he doesn't really consider that any could be like Tysha, forced into having sex.

[Raven Tooth]

Did Tywin actually send her anywhere? To me it seemed like his "wherever whores go" answer implied that she just left and he didn't know where she went. The weird part is that even Tyrion, now knowing that she was not in fact a whore, starts thinking about where whores would go thinking he will find her there. I think she probably went back to wherever her original house was, that being the only area that she knew. Most people in those days never went far from their birth place. At least I hope she was able to live a peaceful life after the incident. And if she is raising a child, well then things would really get interesting as the kid would be the lawful heir to Casterly Rock.

[Raven Tooth]

Sorry, didn't really respond to the original post. Yes, I think the Tysha incident makes Tywin absolutely evil. Sure it was an acceptable way for Lords to treat the smallfolk, but legal right and moral right are not the same. I think Tywin is possible the most evil character. He repeals the laws that Aegon V passed to help the poor, he massacred countless innocents with the Reynes and Tarbecks, and he is not a good parent. I only like him because he makes a good villain.

[TimJames]

It's not a Moral Event Horizon for Tywin ... he crossed the point of no return long ago, when he had the entirety of House Reyne and Tarbeck murdered in cold blood (including babies in their beds) and hapless women.

Same goes with Gregor (when he raped and murdered his sister) and Ramsay (when he started hunting peasant girls).

Walder Frey's Red Wedding Massacre is actually is a good example of a Moral Event Horizon. While he was a bad person before that point, because before that point he at least could have redeemed himself of the dishonor he committed when he waited until after the battle of the Trident before choosing a side in Robert's Rebellion.

[DraculaAD1972]

Why choose the Tysha incident over Tytos' mistress or the sack of kings landing. Tywin is one big moral event horizon in action, what fascinated me is the gulf between image and reality. It is said that Joanna wasn't deflowered by Aerys because Tywin was too proud to 'take another mans leavings'. Shae would disagree.

[Nihlus]

He did much worse than this at age 19, when he butchered at least dozens, most likely hundreds of civilians. Including children. So no. Though, I guess you could say that this crossed a different line, from "okay, that's evil, but it might gain him something, so at least it's pragmatic?" to "wow, he's just an asshole". All of his more pointlessly and self-destructively cruel crimes come after he rapes Tysha.

[Morienthar]

Tywin had already passed the horizon during the Ryene rebellion.

[LordPathera]

Tywin had already passed the horizon during the Ryene rebellion.

What makes you say that considering the actions of the Reynes and Tarbecks which led to the rebellion?

[TheCasualObserver]

Arguing about a moral event horizon for Tywin is quite difficult, mainly because of the horrible things he has done under the guise of political necessity. The best example is probably the death of Elia Martell. Tyrion asks him about i and Tywin assures him that he gave no such order to Gregor - the children had to die but Tywin concedes that by herself Elia was a nonentity. Tyrion appears to accept this explanation, but that doesn't mean we have to.

Oberyn Martell offers another solution - that Elia's brutal death was retribution for her being chosen as a bride for Rhaegar over Cersei. I'm inclined to believe this - not only does the Tysha parallel work well (a woman hurting Lannister pride being destroyed in the worst way imaginable) but it also has mirrors of how Tyrion behaves and he is commonly accepted as being very like Tywin indeed.

For deeply personal reasons, Tyrion arms the mountain men, making it easier for them to prey upon the people of the Vale. Tyrion does this as revenge for his treatment in the Eyrie, yet Lysa Arryn and the Lords of the Vale are not going to be the ones who are raped and murdered. The smallfolk are.

So we can infer that the destruction of the Reynes and Tarbecks almost certainly wasn't a political response (or at least, a proportional response) to the threat they posed. Killing your enemies in battle is ok. Wiping out two entire families including innocent women and children because your pride has been hurt is not.

[Dofs]

I wonder if among those who say that Reynes and Tarbecks were Tywin MEH there are people who want Freys to get eradicated.

[Alester Florent]

It partly depends, I think, on whether the moral even horizon is an IC chronological event or from the reader's perspective. If the former then Tywin likely crossed it with the destruction of Castamere; what he did there was probably even worse and rather less discriminatory than Aerys's slaughtering of the Darklyns. But as readers we only get the details of what happened at Castamere from AWoIaF, and we hear about Tysha long before that, in A Game of Thrones, iirc. (I'm aware that we know Tywin destroyed Castamere, but not how or how indiscriminately).

I'm inclined to believe that, as an essentially literary construct, it's something to be looked at from the outside and thus Tysha probably is Tywin's MEH.

But in any case Tysha's punishment is more premeditated and more unnecessarily cruel, I think, than what happened at Castamere, where Tywin would have had (had he chosen to revisit his actions there) the excuses of inexperience and expediency to fall back on and with sufficient contrition might conceivably have atoned for it.

That said I'm not wholly sold on the idea of a MEH in principle anyway, given that by its nature it implies irredeemability. While it's hard to imagine how Tywin, Gregor, Ramsay, or the like could be redeemed, perhaps it is not (theoretically) impossible? Maybe it is; I think the answer to that is largely rooted in one's own beliefs about morality, ethics and criminal justice as much as anything to do with the characters themselves.

It would be easy to peg Jaime's throwing of Bran from the window as his own MEH, for instance, but in doing so we miss out on basically the entirety of Jaime's character development because the character's already written off (and indeed, some people have done so and therefore missed out on imo one of the best-realised characters in the series).

[ummester]

I think Tywin's treatment of Tysha shows that he has some deep set issues with women, especially in situations where he considers they are promiscuous. This is probably because Areys got a shot at his bride before he did.

I don't see it in terms of moral event horizons, or right or wrongs, though. Just as a well developed character with a back story that fully justifies the characters actions and relationship with the plot.

[Dofs]

For the destruction of Castamere - Ryenes themselves shut themselves off and instead of negotiating a proper surrender, they demanded Tywin to present them his brothers as hostages. As cruel as what followed was, Reynes can also blame themselves for being complete idiots. During the destruction of Tarbeck Hall, Tywin spared everyone who surrendered and wasn't a Tarbeck. Reynes didn't give their men such an opportunity.