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Why does there appear to be a connection between the Ironborn and Yi Ti?


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On Harwyn 'Hardhand' Hoare:


Harwyn would rule his conquest with a heavy hand until his death, spending far more time in the riverlands than on the islands, riding from one end of the Trident to the other at the head of a rapacious army, sniffing out any hint of rebellion whilst collecting taxes, tribute, and salt wives. “His palace was a tent, his throne a saddle,” men said of him.


On the Emperors of Yi Ti:


HAR LOI, the first of the grey emperors, whose throne was said to be a saddle, for he spent his entire reign at war, riding from one battle to another.


First off, the name. Har Loi. It might as well be "Harlaw" as spoken by someone with a different accent. Worth noting that the Ironborn always like to talk about their descendancy from the "Grey King" of legend (which is why you get families named thing like Greyiron and Greyjoy). Second, what's the deal with the whole "saddle is a throne" thing?



So maybe the Har Loi is both the Grey Emperor of Yi Ti AND the Grey King of the Iron Islands. Maybe in the distant past sailors from Yi Ti sailed far enough East and found the Iron Islands and made them part of their empire.



I don't know, I just say the saddle thing and then I noticed the name and the Grey connection. I'm probably just crackpotting, but I don't know man.


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First off, the name. Har Loi. It might as well be "Harlaw" as spoken by someone with a different accent. Worth noting that the Ironborn always like to talk about their descendancy from the "Grey King" of legend (which is why you get families named thing like Greyiron and Greyjoy). Second, what's the deal with the whole "saddle is a throne" thing?

The "saddle is a throne" thing comes up a few times (I think also with one of the Teague kings in the Riverlands). It may be one of GRRM's literary tics or of one of his co-writers on this project. (I felt that the WoIaF book was pretty replete with GRRM-isms in places). It might just also be representative of a failure of imagination when it comes to thinking up something different to say about so many prehistoric kings.

On the Grey Emperor/Grey King it's worth considering, as the Grey King is one of the more egregiously fantastic characters in Westerosi pre-history and as I've noted elsewhere the purported Iron Islands timeline is completely out of whack with the rest of Westeros. But it's a hard one to swallow, especially given that Yi Ti and the Islands really are an awfully long way from one another.

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Yes it's hard to directly connect Yi Ti and the Ironborn, but this isn't a coincidence either. The name is similar; the color grey is similar; and the throne as a saddle is identical. Three strikes and we have a metaphor, at the least. I would guess the purpose is to tell us something about the Ironborn, since they are more relevant about the plot. I wonder if there are other parallels between Yi and the Ironborn (or at least their histories) - George may well be hiding Ironborn secrets in the Yi Ti section... I've caught him doing something like that a couple times. I'll look at Yi Ti and see if anything jumps out to me.

I know that the Lo Bu story is code for the Last Hero story, but I don't know of a connection between iron born and the LH.

Good catch; its not a coincidence. Martin pays to much attention to detail - that's where he hides all of his secrets. ;)

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Yi Ti and the Islands really are an awfully long way from one another.

Are they? Imagine Yi Ti is China. Imagine the Iron Islands are like Hawaii. Pretend we're in a world where we have no idea that the Pacific Ocean we see off the West coast of North America is the same ocean we see off the East coast of Asia: We'd say "China is a long way from Hawaii." because it would look like they're on opposite sides of the planet.

The Ironborn legends talk about the idea that their are neither First Men nor Andals. Those seal-warg guys (Farwynds? I forget) talk about lands beyond the sunset sea. It seems to add up. Maybe one of the Grey Emperors was exiled, sailed East, and settled in the Iron Islands with his followers.

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I don't think that the Ironborn are descended from the YiTish. If they did, then I feel like their religion would represent that more. As it stands their religion seems like it evolved from the pre-Old Gods religion of the First Men since they have a Sea and Storm God, the story of Storm's End founding involves a Sea and Storm God, and the Sistermen used to worship a Sea and Storm God. So I think it's fair to say that the First Men used to have a rather prominent Sea and Storm God.



And I don't believe the stories the Farwynds tell of a land beyond the Sunset Sea. Not because I think there isn't one, but because I don't think there's one that close. If it was really that close someone would've actually discovered it by now.



That being said, the parallels are rather interesting. I don't think the saddle thing is much of anything since there's more than those rulers described that way and is just a fancy way of saying 'this King had so much shit to deal with he never got the chance to just sit in his castle'.


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I don't think that the Ironborn are descended from the YiTish. If they did, then I feel like their religion would represent that more.

I would argue it does: that that's exactly what the story of the Grey King is supposed to tell us, as well as the idea that they "came from the sea" and are not First Men nor Andals.

As it stands their religion seems like it evolved from the pre-Old Gods religion of the First Men since they have a Sea and Storm God, the story of Storm's End founding involves a Sea and Storm God, and the Sistermen used to worship a Sea and Storm God. So I think it's fair to say that the First Men used to have a rather prominent Sea and Storm God.

I don't necessarily disagree with that, but I don't think it's evidence that the First Men were the First on the Iron Islands, just that the religion of the First Men became dominant over whatever religion was already there.

And I don't believe the stories the Farwynds tell of a land beyond the Sunset Sea. Not because I think there isn't one, but because I don't think there's one that close. If it was really that close someone would've actually discovered it by now.

It's possible that winds and/or currents make it extremely difficult to sail back from Yi Ti to the Iron Islands: just because nobody has ever returned doesn't mean nobody's ever gotten where they were supposed to be going. Why would the Farwynds lie? Their story is one of those things that I have trouble imagining would have been put into the novel if it wasn't supposed to have some truth to it. If they are skinchangers, then the winds blowing the wrong way wouldn't stop them from "traveling" to the land beyond the Sunset Sea, putting them in the unique position of knowing about it while still being able to tell others it's there.

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It might be worth noting that TWO maesters postulate a Beyond-the-Sunset-Sea origin for the seastone chair, Maester Kirth and Archmaester Haereg.



Couple that with the fact that the Battle Isle seems extremely similar to the Five Forts of Yi Ti and it looks like we might be getting somewhere.



A viable "East from Yi Ti to Westeros" passage solves a number of problems with other theories too. It could cut down Euron's tavel time enough to make his exploits as Daario more viable. And don't forget that Danaerys was told she had to "go East to go West".


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I don't think there is a connection. Saddles as thrones are often used in TWOIAF.

By itself, sure. But the "Har" prefix and the association with the color "grey" remain suspicious, especially when combined with the two maesters who suggest visitors from across the Sunset Sea plus the Farwynd's declaration that such a land exists and is accessible. Any one of these things by itself could be written off as coincidence, misinformation, but in combination is creates a strong argument.

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It might be worth noting that TWO maesters postulate a Beyond-the-Sunset-Sea origin for the seastone chair, Maester Kirth and Archmaester Haereg.

Couple that with the fact that the Battle Isle seems extremely similar to the Five Forts of Yi Ti and it looks like we might be getting somewhere.

A viable "East from Yi Ti to Westeros" passage solves a number of problems with other theories too. It could cut down Euron's tavel time enough to make his exploits as Daario more viable. And don't forget that Danaerys was told she had to "go East to go West".

Ooh the tinfoil coated pipe comes out. Nobody wants to smell you smoking that Euron=Daario stuff, man, come one. At least take that outside. ;)

In all seriousness, Yi Ti did not build the five forts. The five forts existed before the Long Night, while Yi Ti sprang up after the Long Night. The ironborn were already on the iron islands well before the Long Night. So there is absolutely no direct connection - it's off by thousands of years. The fused stone (not greasy stone, but fused stone) Battle Isle fortress is also definitively pre-Long Night - the first First Men to arrive at whispering sound found it there already, and this was definitely before the LN. So there IS a pre-Long night presence in Westeros, and they must have had control over dragons, because dragonfire and sorcery is the only technique we are ever given to produce fused stone. It's likely these mysterious people built the five forts AND the Hightower Fortress, since there's not likely to be two vanished Dawn Age dragon-riding cultures. If someone came to the Iron Islands before the First Men, in the Dawn Age, and from over the sea, it was these ancient dragon lords, more than likely. But that's all way before Yi Ti. I have extensive theories about this; check the links in my signature.

It seems far more likely to me that George is using the obscure story (about Har Loi) to tell us something relevant about the main story - the Ironborn. The commonalities are a clue to compare the two - throne as a saddle, the color grey, the very similar names. I'd bet a decent sum that there is an Ironborn clue lurking around there somewhere. People who can dismiss three links like that as coincidence aren't paying close attention to how Martin writes, IMO, at least as far as studying how he likes to hide his secrets. He's way too intentional for three matches like that to mean nothing. But it's probably symbolic, not a direct connect.

Grumpycat doesn't believe in anyone's theories; so that's par for the course. Grumpycat holding it down for the grumpy, keeping it real. ;)

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It's a crackpot at best, nonsense at worst imo.





Good catch; its not a coincidence. Martin pays to much attention to detail - that's where he hides all of his secrets. ;)





Yeah no.



As world building and continuity? Obviously yes.



Is this his way to hide secrets and stuff? Well I don't think so. It's true not everything is in front of us to see but he gives clever and solid clues if he wants us to figure it out. Not every single word in the books are symbolic or veils some hidden ancient conspiracy <.<



It's been said a thousand times that GRRM likes mysteries about his world. That's why we don't know what lays beyond the Sunset Sea or what is the deal with oily black stones or why did the mazemakers built their mazes and go on...



And what could be the symbolism behind this anyway? Yeah that guy had so many wars, so a Harlaw will have to deal with lots of wars? Which Harlaw tho? There is a dozen of Harlaws back in AFFC.



There is a mention of some Gardener king who fought against a Harlaw. Their names sounds similar to Garlan and Harris and the theory is that the two will meet in combat, I would buy that but this? No thanks.



It's just a mere coincidence and nothing more. You're delving too deep.



:unsure:


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It's a crackpot at best, nonsense at worst imo.

Yeah no.

As world building and continuity? Obviously yes.

Is this his way to hide secrets and stuff? Well I don't think so. It's true not everything is in front of us to see but he gives clever and solid clues if he wants us to figure it out. Not every single word in the books are symbolic or veils some hidden ancient conspiracy <.<

It's been said a thousand times that GRRM likes mysteries about his world. That's why we don't know what lays beyond the Sunset Sea or what is the deal with oily black stones or why did the mazemakers built their mazes and go on...

And what could be the symbolism behind this anyway? Yeah that guy had so many wars, so a Harlaw will have to deal with lots of wars? Which Harlaw tho? There is a dozen of Harlaws back in AFFC.

There is a mention of some Gardener king who fought against a Harlaw. Their names sounds similar to Garlan and Harris and the theory is that the two will meet in combat, I would buy that but this? No thanks.

It's just a mere coincidence and nothing more. You're delving too deep.

:unsure:

You would be more credible if you didn't always have the same opinion about everything. You dismiss any symbolic connection.. but you can't prove a negative. sop really what you are doing is projecting your own bias that these things must be coincidence. Every secret theory has clues lying in the details.

Let me ask: what is the basis for your assumption that Martin is not hiding clues in the detailed descriptions of things? As far as I can see, this is based on nothing but your own presuppositions. You are simply dismissing things you haven't taken the time to try to understand.

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I believe many things. Secret ancient magic second moon conpiracy theories are not one of them.



Or a Chinese guy ending up on the other side of the world because they were both riding on saddles!



<.<



(and what is your proof that he does?)



Do we all have to write 3 long-ass essays about some world-building material? Because that is where all the cryptic information is hidden?



Plot twist: Not everything is relevant to the series.


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I believe many things. Secret ancient magic second moon conpiracy theories are not one of them.

Or a Chinese guy ending up on the other side of the world because they were both riding on saddles!

<.<

(and what is your proof that he does?)

Do we all have to write 3 long-ass essays about some world-building material? Because that is where all the cryptic information is hidden?

Plot twist: Not everything is relevant to the series.

Second moons exploding to create dragon meter showers is right out of the book. Sorry if you don't like it. It's right in the text. You simply are choosing to dismiss it because it's "just some old legend." But that again is your own bias, projected on the story. The story says the moon cracked and poured forth dragons.

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Quite frankly, Mrs. Grumpy, your behavior is trolling. You drop into threads to say the SAME THING, over and over - "your thread doesn't mean anything, it's invalid, that's all coincidence." The same thing, every time. For every theory. You never address the substance of the arguments, but dismiss them out of hand because they are beyond the scope of your idea of the story. If you don't think the basis for all these theories is valid, then why the heck do you keep commenting to say the same thing over and over? I call that trolling. Don't you have something better to do?


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I believe many things. Secret ancient magic second moon conpiracy theories are not one of them.

Or a Chinese guy ending up on the other side of the world because they were both riding on saddles!

<.<

(and what is your proof that he does?)

Do we all have to write 3 long-ass essays about some world-building material? Because that is where all the cryptic information is hidden?

Plot twist: Not everything is relevant to the series.

I feel like you might enjoy other subforums more than the World of Ice and Fire subforum. It's pretty much here so that we can overanalyze the "irrelevant" stuff from Yi Ti etc.

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Or a Chinese guy ending up on the other side of the world because they were both riding on saddles!

I don't understand why you assume that Yi Ti is "on the other side of the world" from the Iron Islands. Are you one of those guys who looks at a map of the Earth and wonders how in the world Japan managed to attack Hawaii? After all, they're on the whole other side of the giant disk we live on, right?

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I don't understand why you assume that Yi Ti is "on the other side of the world" from the Iron Islands. Are you one of those guys who looks at a map of the Earth and wonders how in the world Japan managed to attack Hawaii? After all, they're on the whole other side of the giant disk we live on, right?

Maybe because they, like myself, see it more as the Chinese sailing across the Ocean to migrate to Spain. I'm pretty sure there's a continent to the West of Westeros, and I also believe that it's not Essos.

Hm. Grey King, grey emperor, Grey Wastes...could be a Deep Ones connection to all three.

I think the Grey Waste is just called that because it's a cold desert wasteland. That's grey.

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