William MK Stark Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 So a while back there was this kind of crazy yet strangely compelling theory stating that Ashara Dayne didn't commit suicide but changed her identity to Jyana, became Howland's Reed wife and Meera and Jojen's mother. Here's a link to the original post: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/89012-howland-reed-ashara-dayne-meera-jojen/ I find it a very interesting and plausible idea (though the Arthur Dayne being alive part seems stretching).So at first glance this theory seems redundant to the overall story and unnecessarily complicated, but I believe there's a reason it matters a lot to the Endgame and R+L=J. First, let's talk about plausibility, some people disregarded the theory because they thought there wasn't a reason for Ashara to change her identity and go into hiding, but actually there are some very clear ones that she needed to die. First, because of Jon, she was serving as a decoy mother to Jon in case anyone got suspicious about his parentage if he got purple eyes or silver hair (she's got dark hair but some Daynes got silver), though Ned being the honorable guy he was kind of tried to dismiss the lie himself. Secondly, and probably even more importantly, she needed to "die" to clear her own guilt. Think about it, who was the most likely person to tip Ned off (maybe through a letter to Howland) about the Tower of Joy ? She most certainly hoped that things wouldn't get too bloody, but they did. So now she was, in a way, responsible for her brother's death. Do you think she could go on to marry one of the men directly causing his death and bear his children without the weight of guilt on her, or the judgement of other people ? So by faking her suicide, she essentially killed off her own self, lessening the guilt and hiding away from the eyes of others. Back to the purpose, I really think if this theory is true, it can serve a greater role than just making this more deep. This relies on R+L=J being true (which is likely the case). A lot of us have speculated that Howland would be the one to reveal this secret, either to Jon or some other POVs, but if you think about it, what can he actually tell them ? Yes, he probably knew who Jon's parents are, but not much else. Remember, he came into the room after Lyanna had died, and Ned probably wasn't in the mood to talk, even if he did, he couldn't have known much either, since Lyanna was feverish and not in the condition to explain prophecy stuff, or maybe didn't know about them herself. So that brings up the potential importance of Ashara, who was a friend and handmaiden to Elia Martell. In a vision Dany had in the HOTU, she saw Rhaegar speaking to Elia about the Prince that was promised and the Song of Ice and Fire, so Elia probably knew about the prophecy and told her friend Ashara. Even it wasn't it, Ashara could have been let in on the truth by Arthur, who was guarding Lyanna. Her words would in all possibilities, be more detailed and accurate than Howland's. So that's the purpose that the theory may serve. In the end, even if the theory is not true, it's still a cool one and a good alternative story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 When I first have read the theory, I was totally against it, but then Dr. Pepper opened my eyes and I am now firm believer. I mean, without Arthur being alive part, this theory, which relies on the story Reeds told and "how I met your mother?" factor is kinda cool to believe in. I am totally buying it. This is how people should have done the crackpots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Arthur being alive does not make sense. That looks like a cheap way of revealing Jon’s parentage to the Realm. I don’t think George would do that. We have another son of Rhaegar whose story is backed up by another friend of Rhaegar coming from the dead. This will be too repetitive and the credibility will suffer. We know that the boy is false and it is quite likely that his falsehood will be revealed. I am sure that if George wants to reveal Jon’s parentage to the Ream (after all he has been deconstructing the classical hidden prince trope with both Jon and fAegon) he can come up with a more creative way. Other than that, I am fully on board with Ashara + Howland. I think unlike what Barristan and many people think, Ashara did not “look to a Stark” at Harrenhal. Or to be precise, she “looked to a Stark” so that he would introduce her to their friend, the little and mysterious crannogman to whom Ashara must be attracted. As Fire Eater pointed, Howland’s journey resembles Bilbo’s journey and just like Bilbo, Howland might have returned to his home with treasures gained during his adventures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William MK Stark Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 Yeah, I don't think that Arthur is alive either. As stated , I believed his death is one of the reasons Ashara faked her death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 I hate this theory with passion :-) It's very well though through and very well presented and there's nothing that could directly contradict it but man, would it be so lame, if it was true. My biggest beef with the theory is that I haven't yet heard any satisfactory answer to "Why". The Ashara being Jon's decoy mother is absurd because she has never been used as one and she could have easily been one as well if she stayed alive. The other point is that everything that is used as evidence for the theory has another much more mundane and much more likely explanation but I guess that's true for pretty much any theory on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 The vision of Howland Reed turning the tides of the legendary fight at the Tower of Joy by unexpectedly blurting out "hey, Dayne, I fucked your sister!", is... compelling. Certainly unorthodox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Actually, if Ashara got pregnant to Meera at Harrenhal, Arthur would not need any proof. Howland would be kin to him and he could not harm Howland in the fight, which would give advantage, the same one Baelor Breakspear used against the KG fighting against him. This also explains how and why Ned could have hoped to learn the whereabouts of the missing KG and Lyanna at Starfall from Ashara. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 The vision of Howland Reed turning the tides of the legendary fight at the Tower of Joy by unexpectedly blurting out "hey, Dayne, I fucked your sister!", is... compelling. Certainly unorthodox. And it has the added benefit of being a match Ashara's father might not approve. Now a match with a Stark would be great for a Dayne, but a Reed? Who ever heard of them? What right does this short guy have to make a move on the daughter of Starfall? And WHY oh why did the girl not let herself be "dishonored" by someone with power? Baratheon or a Stark could have been pressured into making some kind of amends, but what does House Reed have to offer? No one will take her after they find out she was messing around with a crannogman! Sure, let them get married, but only if no one ever finds out! Take the disobedient little slut to the swamps and keep her there! It also fits nicely that Ashara had a daughter. Maybe her family was hoping the kid would take after the Dayne side, but when she came out looking like Howland they knew there was no chance of hiding that. So they fake the baby's death, and Ashara's rather than deal with the shame. The most beautiful woman in all of Westeros, scion of House Dayne, the blood of the First Men, keepers of Dawn, providers of Swords of the Morning, an illustrious family over 10,000 years old--let herself by seduced by a little nobody who couldn't even defend himself against a couple of squires and needed a girl to protect him. Yeah, I'm thinking the Daynes would be happy to let Ashara disappear under those circumstances. They might even say she killed herself over a broken heart because of losing Ned. That does make a better story than running off with a swamp guy. Also it does rather make sense of Howland noticing every guy she danced with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Also it does rather make sense of Howland noticing every guy she danced with. That was a serious focus shift the the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William MK Stark Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 Hey, now that I think about it, if the theory is true, there will be interesting parallel between the two generations: Bran (Ned's son) is now attracted to Meera (Ashara's daughter), and like Ned, he most likely won't end up with her, either ( him being cripple and becoming like Bloodraven and all). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOne-EyedHound Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 Oh god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICRYRAGE Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 So I believe in this theory with a twist. I think Merra is actually Brandon Starks bastard with Ashara and the way Howland saved Ned was during the fight he told Authur Dayne that he would marry his sister despite the fact she was not a virgin and was with child. This would also explain why Selmy thought she had a daughter and why Bran says she reminds him of Arya. I don't think Howland did some swamp magic or poison and killed the best fighter in the realm. This also explains why Ned did not return any of the bodies from the Toy of Joy. If Authur was still alive then he would have an empty grave. If Ned was to return one body he would have to return them all. This angers several northern houses in the process, but is needed to hide the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 So I believe in this theory with a twist. I think Merra is actually Brandon Starks bastard with Ashara and the way Howland saved Ned was during the fight he told Authur Dayne that he would marry his sister despite the fact she was not a virgin and was with child. This would also explain why Selmy thought she had a daughter and why Bran says she reminds him of Arya. I don't think Howland did some swamp magic or poison and killed the best fighter in the realm. This also explains why Ned did not return any of the bodies from the Toy of Joy. If Authur was still alive then he would have an empty grave. If Ned was to return one body he would have to return them all. This angers several northern houses in the process, but is needed to hide the truth. Meera has the typical crannogmen appearance, which is impossible to have if she was born from Brandon and Ashara. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William MK Stark Posted May 24, 2015 Author Share Posted May 24, 2015 Does anyone think Arthur was the one to commit suicide ? I mean, after Howland stopped him from killing Ned by probably yelling out or standing in front of the blade, it's either that Ned took the opportunity to strike Arthur down (not very Ned's style really), or that he committed suicide because of honor (he couldn't kill his kin Howland nor give away Jon due to Kingsguard vow), so the best he could do was to kill himself to help keep Jon a secret. That would explain the "they" in "they found him" and why Ned was so haunted by Arthur in particular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 Does anyone think Arthur was the one to commit suicide ? I mean, after Howland stopped him from killing Ned by probably yelling out or standing in front of the blade, it's either that Ned took the opportunity to strike Arthur down (not very Ned's style really), or that he committed suicide because of honor (he couldn't kill his kin Howland nor give away Jon due to Kingsguard vow), so the best he could do was to kill himself to help keep Jon a secret. That would explain the "they" in "they found him" and why Ned was so haunted by Arthur in particular. Falling on his own sword as ancient warriors did? That's a possibility. Then again... "You seem a decent fellow, I hate to kill you. "You seem a decent fellow, I hate to die." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICRYRAGE Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 In the World of Ice and Fire book it suggests that inadequate nourishment could be the reason for their size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 In the World of Ice and Fire book it suggests that inadequate nourishment could be the reason for their size. Or they could just be short. Or they could be descended from the CotF who the "author" of TWOIAF doesn't believe exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Pesci Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 Interesting, as this is the first I've read of it. Don't see Art being alive, but this is way better than some other theories out there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riddick Posted May 26, 2015 Share Posted May 26, 2015 I thought it was ridiculous at first, but I am convinced that it is a possibility. There are so many un-answered questions still lingering, I hope and pray that GRRM answers all of them in the remaining two books. I would hate any loose ends :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 Does anyone think Arthur was the one to commit suicide ? I mean, after Howland stopped him from killing Ned by probably yelling out or standing in front of the blade, it's either that Ned took the opportunity to strike Arthur down (not very Ned's style really), or that he committed suicide because of honor (he couldn't kill his kin Howland nor give away Jon due to Kingsguard vow), so the best he could do was to kill himself to help keep Jon a secret. That would explain the "they" in "they found him" and why Ned was so haunted by Arthur in particular. I always preferred the idea that it was something Howland said rather than did that prevented Arthur from killing Ned when he had him at sword point. I don't subscribe to this theory so I don't think that Howland and Arthur when kin, though, but like you I always though that Arthur giving up the fight and de facto committing a suicide is highly likely and would explain why Ned had held him in such high regard and why, as you put it, is he haunted by his death. I could also envision a scenario, in which Arthur was already mortally wounded from the fight but despite his injuries was still able to overpower Ned but Howland somehow convinced him to let them go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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