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NFL Offseason 2015 Pt 2: Deflated Debate


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Since the other thread is past 400 posts, I'm starting a new thread.



I've been thinking about former players as head coaches:



In 2014, 6 out of 32 NFL coaches played in the NFL: Ron Rivera, Jason Garrett (Is he a head coach? I though he was just the guy with a clipboard nodding silently in the background of Jerry Jones press conferences), Doug Marone (no longer Head Coach), Jim Harbaugh ( no longer in the NFL), Jeff Fischer, and Ken Whisenhunt. Since then, Jack Del Rio and Gary Kubiak have been rehired as head coaches, so the number is still 6. Regardless, Jack Del Rio, Ron Rivera, and Jim Harbaugh were the closest on that list to stars.



On the other hand, in the NBA, that number is closer to 22 out of 30. I don't know much about baseball, but it looks like it's easier to count managers who didn't play in the majors than those who did.



It's harder to count in soccer because there are so many different leagues and levels, but a few years ago Sergio Ramos, in a argument with Jose Mourinho, his coach at the time, called him out for having never played as a pro. I guess the NFL equivalent to Mourinho would be Belichick and I can't imagine a player in the NFL calling Belichik out for having never been a football player at the highest level.



I wonder why this is? Is it that NFL coaching is more important than it is in baseball or basketball so that all the other stuff is more important than name recognition?



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NFL coaching is a commitment like no other I think, which could be part of it. It also is highly compartmentalized. A lineman and a quarterback are playing completely different games so knowin one doesn't always compute across the board. Whereas in basketball the center and PG are still playing the same basic game and the roles between positions does overlap more; I would argue your average NBA player is better prepped.

Just the first thoughts to come to mind.

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I think in any sport, you're doing yourself a disservice if you emphasize hiring a former player over a guy who, maybe didn't play at the highest level, but will bring new ideas and doesn't just rely on "this was always the way it's been done". Not to say that former can't be ahead of the curve. I mean Steve Kerr has been fantastic. But too many former athletes are given jobs based on their former accomplishments or perceived reputation as opposed to demonstrating the kind of skills that make a great coach. Mike Singletary was kind of ground zero for that.

And I'll just say most of the best coaches in NFL history are not former NFL players. Belichick, Lombardi, Walsh, Gibbs, I think the NBA is finally catching onto that with the best, most innovative, coaches now being guys like Poppovich, Stevens, Thibodeau. Billy Donovan just got hired. Finally that old trope about players only respecting a former player is dissipating. They'll respect a guy who gets results, period. And I think in tactical game arms race that exists now in both sports, if you're stuck with a retrograde thinker as a head coach (read: former player who doesn't feel like he needs to understand where his sport his heading), your team will suffer.

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I think in any sport, you're doing yourself a disservice if you emphasize hiring a former player over a guy who, maybe didn't play at the highest level, but will bring new ideas and doesn't just rely on "this was always the way it's been done". Not to say that former can't be ahead of the curve. I mean Steve Kerr has been fantastic. But too many former athletes are given jobs based on their former accomplishments or perceived reputation as opposed to demonstrating the kind of skills that make a great coach. Mike Singletary was kind of ground zero for that.

And I'll just say most of the best coaches in NFL history are not former NFL players. Belichick, Lombardi, Walsh, Gibbs, I think the NBA is finally catching onto that with the best, most innovative, coaches now being guys like Poppovich, Stevens, Thibodeau. Billy Donovan just got hired. Finally that old trope about players only respecting a former player is dissipating. They'll respect a guy who gets results, period. And I think in tactical game arms race that exists now in both sports, if you're stuck with a retrograde thinker as a head coach (read: former player who doesn't feel like he needs to understand where his sport his heading), your team will suffer.

I would disagree with your list here, as well as the premise. Tom Landry, Don Shula, Chuck Knoll, Dan Reeves, Marty Schottenheimer, Bill Cowher, and Herm Edwards all played in the NFL. I personally think the first two trump anyone on your list.

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I would disagree with your list here, as well as the premise. Tom Landry, Don Shula, Chuck Knoll, Dan Reeves, Marty Schottenheimer, Bill Cowher, and Herm Edwards all played in the NFL. I personally think the first two trump anyone on your list.

All very good to great coaches, but no one on your list approaches the guys on Jaime's. Belichick, Lombardi, Walsh and Gibbs were all innovators who changed the game. I suppose you could say the same for Landry, but I'd put him 5th on that list.

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All very good to great coaches, but no one on your list approaches the guys on Jaime's. Belichick, Lombardi, Walsh and Gibbs were all innovators who changed the game. I suppose you could say the same for Landry, but I'd put him 5th on that list.

Lombardi outright took what Landry was doing and implemented it on a team that had the best players the league had seen to that point. He still narrowly beat Landry with a group of misfits.

Walsh was a great offensive mind, but didn't really even know defenses. He relied on coordinators his whole career for that.

Gibbs is so far outclassed by almost everyone that has been mentioned that it doesn't warrant a discussion.

Belichick however is in contention for the GOAT. His constant innovation is really remarkable. Let's see how he does once he doesn't have Brady before we crown him though.

The coach that is often left out of these discussion is Shula, and all he did was win the most amount of games ever as a coach and went an entire season without losing.

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Walsh was a great offensive mind, but didn't really even know defenses. He relied on coordinators his whole career for that.

.

Which in the NFL is just as important as what you do yourself. Having, teaching, and using the best coordinators around is one of the biggest keys to success in the NFL.

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Which in the NFL is just as important as what you do yourself. Having, teaching, and using the best coordinators around is one of the biggest keys to success in the NFL.

There's a balance though.

I use Parcells as an example.

Parcells was considered a great coach. But when you think about it he had guys like Payton, Coughlin and Belichick who all were successful on their own after.

Then Belichick won more than Parcells, but none of his coordinators ever amounted to much. Coughlin's won just as much (at least in terms of Super Bowls, probably wasn't an overall more successful tenure) and he never had a coordinator amount to much (I think Sparano is his best). Then Payton got a SB and had one of the more dominant teams of the late 2000's and early 2010's. None of his coordinators are even coaches at this moment in time (2 actually just lost their job).

So who deserves more of the credit. The guy who brought along men who later proved themselves on their own, or the guys who won by themselves and didn't need a great OC or DC?

Lombardi outright took what Landry was doing and implemented it on a team that had the best players the league had seen to that point. He still narrowly beat Landry with a group of misfits.

Walsh was a great offensive mind, but didn't really even know defenses. He relied on coordinators his whole career for that.

Gibbs is so far outclassed by almost everyone that has been mentioned that it doesn't warrant a discussion.

Belichick however is in contention for the GOAT. His constant innovation is really remarkable. Let's see how he does once he doesn't have Brady before we crown him though.

The coach that is often left out of these discussion is Shula, and all he did was win the most amount of games ever as a coach and went an entire season without losing.

I think Shula gets left out more because he was around for a longer period of time but only has 2 SB's to show for it. That and from 86 on he was rather mediocre. From 86-95 he only won the division twice and only really made a deep playoff run once (which ended at the AFC Championship game). That and he gets mixed in with the whole Dan Marino never winning a Super Bowl thing.

There's sort of an always the bridesmaid never the bride thing going on with him too. In the 60's, Lombardi was ahead of him. In the 70's, Noll was ahead of him. In the 80's, Walsh was ahead of him. By the 90's, he really wasn't a top coach anymore.

I think a lot of that's unfair. But history has shown that it's kinder to coaches who had a lot of success in a short period of time and came away with multiple titles. Also certain coaches get associated with an era of football

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I would disagree with your list here, as well as the premise. Tom Landry, Don Shula, Chuck Knoll, Dan Reeves, Marty Schottenheimer, Bill Cowher, and Herm Edwards all played in the NFL. I personally think the first two trump anyone on your list.

Landry and Shula better than Belichick and Walsh?

Whatever you say, dude.

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Walsh was a great offensive mind, but didn't really even know defenses. He relied on coordinators his whole career for that.

Gibbs is so far outclassed by almost everyone that has been mentioned that it doesn't warrant a discussion.

That's just not true. He spent more hands on time on offense during games, but he was all over the defensive side of the ball otherwise. He's credited with inventing specialization and the first guy to implement situational defensive rotations (like his then famous 8 man front) rather than starters and breathers. Pete Carroll credits him with teaching him how to draft defensive players, and Billick says his defensive practices are essentially crib-sheets from Walsh's book.

Everyone thinks about the big names on O when they talk about his drafting genius, but he might have been even better drafting on D. In 1981 alone he drafted 3 Pro-Bowl DB's, lead by Ronnie Lott, and in his greatest draft ever...1986...when he re-wrote the ' more bullets' book by constantly trading down, along the way drafting several All-Pros, 5 of the 8 Super Bowl starters he nabbed in that one class were defenders, lead by HOF Charles Haley.

It's a misconception to think he only knew about offense. All his disciples talk about how much he influenced them to think holistically rather than in compartments.

He's the Branch Rickey of football.

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Gibbs is so far outclassed by almost everyone that has been mentioned that it doesn't warrant a discussion.

Your comments about Gibbs remain even handed and well-considered.

I can understand the animus though. When he's beating Tom Landry with replacement players, those are the kind of wounds that never heal.

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That's just not true. He spent more hands on time on offense during games, but he was all over the defensive side of the ball otherwise. He's credited with inventing specialization and the first guy to implement situational defensive rotations (like his then famous 8 man front) rather than starters and breathers. Pete Carroll credits him with teaching him how to draft defensive players, and Billick says his defensive practices are essentially crib-sheets from Walsh's book.

Everyone thinks about the big names on O when they talk about his drafting genius, but he might have been even better drafting on D. In 1981 alone he drafted 3 Pro-Bowl DB's, lead by Ronnie Lott, and in his greatest draft ever...1986...when he re-wrote the ' more bullets' book by constantly trading down, along the way drafting several All-Pros, 5 of the 8 Super Bowl starters he nabbed in that one class were defenders, lead by HOF Charles Haley.

It's a misconception to think he only knew about offense. All his disciples talk about how much he influenced them to think holistically rather than in compartments.

He's the Branch Rickey of football.

Yeah, him saying Walsh was only offensively-minded is a line of bullshit that made me laugh.

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/cold-hard-football-facts-blog/five-perfect-and-sublime-cold-hard-football-facts/15707/

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/49ers-filthy-hippies-pigskin-passology/7090/

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