Did Tywin sponsor the tourney at Harrenhal?

[three-eyed monkey]

Ok, so most of us, myself included, believe than Rhaegar was behind the tourney at Harrenhal. Oswell Whent visited his brother, Lord Walter, and soon after that the tourney was announced. Seems pretty clear that Oswell was acting on behalf of his friend, Prince Rhaegar. Right?

The tourney was to be an event of unrivalled magnificence, with prizes thrice as large as those offered at the Lannisport tourney of 276 hosted by Lord Tywin. But some people argued that Lord Whent lacked the funds to pay for such prizes, and that someone who did not lack for gold acted as a shadow host. Again, Rhaegar is the first name that comes to mind.

Varys warned Aerys that the tourney was a ruse to cover a conspiracy between the Prince and High Lords. That may well be true, but then it seems a bit odd to me that Rhaegar met some of his co-conspirators in battle on the Trident a couple of years later. And I see some people think Rhaegar organised the tourney to select a mother for the third head of the dragon, but the timeline doesn't work because Aegon was not yet born and the Maesters had not yet informed the Prince that Elia would not be able for another child, so I rule that out as a motive.

But Rhaegar was not the only one who could have stumped up the gold for the tourney. Lord Tywin did not lack for gold, and had plenty of motive to act against the King who had been insulting him and treating him rather poorly for over a decade at that stage, making cruel remarks about Joanna's death, denying the betrothal of Cersei and Rhaegar, naming Tywin's heir to the kingsguard, etc. We know Tywin was a great plotter, e.g. The Red Wedding, and was not a man to suffer insults so easily. He was conspicuously absent from the tourney at Harrenhal, perhaps because his friendship with Aerys had soured so much. But maybe staying away was a way of removing himself from suspicion and giving him an alibi of sorts?

Varys warned Aerys not to open the gates of King's Landing to Tywin, so perhaps the Spider was well aware of Tywin's involvement in the alleged conspiracy?

Any thoughts?

[Make Shadowbabies Not War]

I guess he could have, but it wouldn't really have much meaning in terms of the story. I guess my problem with things like this is they don't add to the story, nor would they serve as satisfying twist in any way.

[Lykos]

Yes, I think that is likely. Although I have to point out that I think that Varys could have prevented the opening of the gates to KL to Tywin had he really wanted to and that naming Jaime to the KG was probably a reaction to the Tourney.

I believe that Rhaegar was meant to declare his plans at the Tourney and that it wasn't only Aerys presence that prevented him from doing so. All the smiles died when he crowned Lyanna.

No one made a fuss when Loras gave his special favor to the betrothed of the crown prince, though the colour of the rose might have gone unnoticed, but I think crowning someone Queen of Love and Beauty was not such a big deal as asking a lady to wear her favor as Jorah did with Lynesse in Lannisport.

The dying smiles might be a description in hindsight, but I think it possible that there was another sign expected from Rhaegar by the lords present, that would lead to the forming of a great council and force Aerys to abdicate.

I don't think that the humiliations suffered by Tywin are sufficient motivation for him to participate in such a plot - "never let your sentiment stand in the way of your ambition" - Tywin's ambition was to marry his family into the ruling dragon-dynasty. Did Rhaegar promise to take Cersei as his second wife for Tywin's support or did he offer Rhaenys' hand to Jaime? I think it possible, but I don't see any hints for this in the story, of course Martin has kept Rhaegar's plans very mysterious.

There is another possibility where the money came from is a rich merchant family, like the Spicers, but I don't see Hoster Tully participating in such a plot without very strong insurances that most of his neighbours are on his side - the Riverlands are just too vulnerable.

Is this from TWoIaF?

The tourney was to be an event of unrivalled magnificence, with prizes thrice as large as those offered at the Lannisport tourney of 272, hosted by Lord Tywin. But some people argued that Lord Whent lacked the funds to pay for such prizes, and that someone who did not lack for gold acted as a shadow host.

[Mithras]

Yes, I defended that notion in one of the past R+L=J threads starting from this post.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Is this from TWoIaF?

Yes, though it is an error, which should be corrected in later prints.. The Lannisport tourney of 276 AC is meant there.. The tourney in 272 AC was hosted in KL, and not by Tywin.

[Lykos]

Thanks Rhaenys :)

ETA: Make Shadowbabies Not War, if Martin reveals that Rhaegar planned to take Cersei as a second wife it might serve as preparation for the reveal that Lyanna had in fact been married to Rhaegar (an idea I personally don't like).

[Mithras]

With the evidence we have so far, Rhaegar looks like an incompetent coward. He failed to breache the subject during the Tourney, although everybody saw that Aerys was mad as hatters and so there was a golden opportunity. Then he disappeared like running away and only after the Realm went upside down, he appeared and talked to Jaime about the "changes" he meant to make in a melancholic manner.

Therefore, I do not expect this guy to be the shadow host. He might have talked to Tywin about his intentions (considering that he trusted Jaime enough to talk to him about the "changes") and as a result, Tywin might have come up with this plan. But Rhaegar failed to execute it to the end.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

With the evidence we have so far, Rhaegar looks like an incompetent coward. He failed to breache the subject during the Tourney, although everybody saw that Aerys was mad as hatters and so there was a golden opportunity. Then he disappeared like running away and only after the Realm went upside down, he appeared and talked to Jaime about the "changes" he meant to make in a melancholic manner.

Therefore, I do not expect this guy to be the shadow host. He might have talked to Tywin about his intentions (considering that he trusted Jaime enough to talk to him about the "changes") and as a result, Tywin might have come up with this plan. But Rhaegar failed to execute it to the end. as usual.

Like and agree. I believe that Tourney was a collaboration between Tywin and Rhaegar who used the Whents as their puppet.

[three-eyed monkey]

Is this from TWoIaF?

Yes, but I'm paraphrasing.

Yes, though it is an error, which should be corrected in later prints.. The Lannisport tourney of 276 AC is meant there.. The tourney in 272 AC was hosted in KL, and not by Tywin.

Thanks, RT. 276 it is. I'll edit the OP.

With the evidence we have so far, Rhaegar looks like an incompetent coward. He failed to breache the subject during the Tourney, although everybody saw that Aerys was mad as hatters and so there was a golden opportunity. Then he disappeared like running away and only after the Realm went upside down, he appeared and talked to Jaime about the "changes" he meant to make in a melancholic manner.

Therefore, I do not expect this guy to be the shadow host. He might have talked to Tywin about his intentions (considering that he trusted Jaime enough to talk to him about the "changes") and as a result, Tywin might have come up with this plan. But Rhaegar failed to execute it to the end.

Like and agree. I believe that Tourney was a collaboration between Tywin and Rhaegar who used the Whents as their puppet.

Yeah guys, I think I'm coming around to this idea. Cheers.

Mithras, I haven't been on the R+L=J thread since it was in the 20s or 30s. Thanks for the link.

[Arrow of the Morning]

I don't believe that Rhaegar was plotting the Tourney with Tywin. Tywin wanted Rhaegar in the Iron Throne, but was more because he would not be a so problematic king like his father and Tywin could marry Cersei with him, without Aerys to disturb. But Rhaegar never wanted to dethrone his father, probably the prince wanted to call a Great Counsel and intervening in his father rule, limiting his powers so he would not harm more anyone. And Rhaegar had no thing to trade with Tywin to gain his loyalty.

In the first book, the Tourney of the Hand gave 40 thousand golden dragons to the winner of the joust, 20 thousand to the runner up, 20 thousand for the melee's winner and 10 thousand for the archer's contest winner, all the prizes more the cost of the food, singers, circus artists and other expenses cost 100 thousand golden dragons. If the Great Tourney of Lannisport had the same prizes, the ToH may be had the prize of the joust costing 120 thousand golden dragons, but I bet the prize was even bigger. A Tourney like the ToH would demand a lot of money. I bet that Rhaegar sold a Dragon Egg and used the money to sponsor the Tourney. He was the prince of Dragonstone and may be he found some egg there and it would be enough.

[Lord Varys]

Tywin wasn't at the tourney and nobody ever suggested he might have been behind it in universe. Why not Mace Tyrell? Why not Leyton Hightower? If people think it was Rhaegar, suggesting that Rhaegar had both the best motivation as well as the enough coin, then Rhaegar is the most likeliest candidate!

[Bael's Bastard]

I suspect there was something behind the scenes between Rhaegar and Tywin, and could see Tywin being financially responsible for the Harrenhal tourney on behalf of Rhaegar.

[Arrow of the Morning]

And Varys said to Aerys do not open the gates because he knows what Tywin wanted to do. He would not pick the loser side, it was evident, just Aerys did not realized it.

[Lykos]

Lord Varys, the reason for Rhaegar not to use his own coin could be that people (such as Varys) are watching his finances.

There is one detail that sugests that Hoster Tully tried to tie the Lannisters to his house by offering Lysa in marriage to Jaime wether to keep Tywin neutral or to build a block against Aerys is still open, there is no indication that the Reach was involved, though they should have been an important part in Rhaegar's plans.

[Chinoiserie]

I don't believe that Rhaegar was plotting the Tourney with Tywin. Tywin wanted Rhaegar in the Iron Throne, but was more because he would not be a so problematic king like his father and Tywin could marry Cersei with him, without Aerys to disturb. But Rhaegar never wanted to dethrone his father, probably the prince wanted to call a Great Counsel and intervening in his father rule, limiting his powers so he would not harm more anyone. And Rhaegar had no thing to trade with Tywin to gain his loyalty. .

While I feel Rhaegar is more likely candidate for sponsor Tywin could have gained with sponsoring. Rhaegar could have gotten Jaime out of Kingsguard and Tywin back as his own Hand (while Jaime became Kingsuard at Harrenhall it was decided before when Tywin resigned. Tywin could have become the sponsor at the last minute). Rhaegar could have agree to engage Viserys to Cersei wictch migh not be ideal for Tywin but Rhaegar would have been married already and I do not think second marriage would have been appealing nor something anyone even considered at that point. Besides Tywin would hav liked revenge against Aerys at this point and knew that Aerys was unstable better than almost anyone.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

And Varys said to Aerys do not open the gates because he knows what Tywin wanted to do. He would not pick the loser side, it was evident, just Aerys did not realized it.

Or maybe Varys was scared that Tywin would have supported the Crown.

If Varys is a connected to the Blackfyres and was plotting against Aerys by fueling his paranoia it's likely that he wanted Aerys beat.

[three-eyed monkey]

While Jaime's formal investiture as a knight of the Kingsguard did take place at the tourney, the announcement was made prior to that, while Tywin was still Hand. At the time, according to the world book, Tywin had been in the midst of negotiating an advantageous marriage pact for Jaime (Lysa Arryn???) when Aerys informed him of the decision. Tywin went to one knee and thanked the king for the honour, and then, pleading illness, retired as hand and returned to Casterly Rock with Cersei.

Also, when Aerys was held captive in Duskendale, and Tywin, who had laid siege to the town with the royal host, played hardball with Lord Darklyn, several of the small council advised against such a stance for fear it might goad Lord Darklyn into killing the king, to which Tywin reportedly replied: "He may or he may not, but if he does we have a better king right here." Whereupon he raised his hand to indicate Prince Rhaegar.

So I think there is plenty to suggest that Tywin had both the means and motive to plot against Aerys.

[Chinoiserie]

Or maybe Varys was scared that Tywin would have supported the Crown.

If Varys is a connected to the Blackfyres and was plotting against Aerys by fueling his paranoia it's likely that he wanted Aerys beat.

Varys advicing not to let Tywin in has always bothered me since it feels otherwise likely that Varys is connected to the Blackfyres and against Aerys. If he thought that Tywin was there to support the Crown his actions could make sense but could he have misjudged Tywin's intentions so? I am hardly one of those that think Varys always knows everything but this was not difficult to guess.

[Lykos]

three-eyed monkey, Jaime being made Kingsguard was announced prior to the tourney, but was it announced prior to the announcement of the tourney?

In any case, I enjoy the idea that Cersei undid her own dream of marrying a targaryen prince (I didn't think of a betrothal of Cersei and Viserys somehow my mind didn't want to go there. I' mulling it over Chinoiserie.). I wonder how she fed Aerys with information, or did someone (Varys) approach her with a solution to her woes?

Varys is a master of presenting bits of the truth in such a way that people act as he intends them to. He might have advised Aerys to keep the gates locked, but did he mean him to keep them locked?

Jaime in Storm

...,Cersei took him aside and whispered that Lord Tywin meant to marry him to Lysa Tully, had gone so far as to invite Lord Hoster to the city to discuss dower. But if Jaime took the white, he could be near her always. Old Ser Harlan Grandison had died in his sleep, as was only appropriate for one whose sigil was a sleeping lion. Aerys would want a young man to take his place, so why not a roaring lion in place of a sleepy one?
"Father will never consent," Jaime objected.
"The king won't ask him. And once it's done, Father can't object, not openly. Aerys had Ser Ilyn Payne's tongue tom out just for boasting that it was the Hand who truly ruled the Seven Kingdoms. The captain of the Hand's guard, and yet Father dared not try and stop it! He won't stop this, either."

[three-eyed monkey]

three-eyed monkey, Jaime being made Kingsguard was announced prior to the tourney, but was it announced prior to the announcement of the tourney?

According to AWoIaF, "Shortly thereafter (the appointment of Jaime to the KG and Tywin's subsequent resignation as Hand) Lord Walter Whent announced plans for a great tourney to be held at his seat in Harrenhal, to celebrate his maiden daughter's nameday. King Aerys II chose this event for the formal investiture of Ser Jaime Lannister as a knight of the Kingsguard..."