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What's with the Stannis love?


Raven Tooth

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I am pretty new to the forum, but a common theme I have seen is that people seem to really like Stannis. This came as a surprise to me as I did not find him a likable character at all reading the books......

He elicits no love in his followers and adheres to some strict sense of justice when it suits him, but then turns a blind eye at other times (Mance for example).......

He is labeled "the Mannis" when he hides behind the skirts of a witch and uses spells to punish the wrongfully accused "usurpers" Balon and Robb. Even if their rebellions (not usurping) were punishable by death at least have the decency to bring justice yourself rather than using blood magic........

He is about the closest thing you can get to a kin slayer. And don't act like he didn't know what making shadow babies was going to do. And then with Penrose, he turns down an honorable offer to do a duel of champions and instead uses a shadow assassin again........

He seems to be the only person outside of the NW who realizes the true danger and the real enemy to the realm. So what does he do with this knowledge? He kills a bunch of wildings and sends most of the rest packing to starve out in the wilderness and come back as wights. Then he leaves the watch to go wage war among the already depleted armies in the north who will be the realm's first line of defense. When the real enemy is at the gates, why keep squabbling over some chair? He should have given up his claim to the throne and brought his armies to the wall to help hold it against the armies of the dead (and argued for diplomacy with the wildings). Maybe the other houses would realize something is up when somebody like Stannis, who reportedly would never back down, gives up his claim to fight the real battle......

His one redeeming factor is that Davos is his man, and Davos is The Man. He is one of my favorite characters. But Stannis locks him away in a dungeon for weeks and only seldom actually takes his advice. And he lets his other advisers get burned alive, an absolutely gruesome way to go.....

Anyway that is just how I saw Stannis when reading the books. Would some of the Stannis fans out there please help spread some light on this? And keep in mind this is 100% opinion. I am simply very confused.

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In response to your posts:



Sure burning alive is a terrible way to go, but there are worse ways to go in Westeros. Drowning, flaying, and crucifixion all come to mind.



As for the kinslaying? Can one be an honest kinslayer if it is in self-defense? If he didn't kill Renly, than Renly would have killed him. If Renly sent an assassin after Stannis or cut him down in single combat, there would be no talk of kinslaying.


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I'm not a Stannis lover, and the love puzzled me as well, for the very reasons you have mentioned. He's uncharismatic to the extreme. Here are my theories as to his popularity:



1. He's the "Rightful Heir", depending on how you look at it. He's the closest living kin to the last real King, Robert Baratheon. "Truth" and "Justice" and Law are on his side. If all that means something to you, then you have to love Stannis.



2. He's uncompromising. I have to admit this can be an attractive attribute, even to me.



3. He's just, and fair, to the extreme. He has no diplomatic skills, but he's just and fair. That puts him ahead of the other surviving line in the War of the Five Kings, the Lannister-Baratheons.



4. He's still around. Some people equate winning with value. Look at Tom Brady. Most people believe he's a cheater, but he's still loved and considered a great role model. I could get into some political figures but I just know that will rub some people the wrong way. Hell, criticism of Tom Brady is probably going to piss some people off, just as does criticism of Stannis, or Dany, or Sansa, or Tyrion, or Ned, or whomever.



When you look at that, you see enough to earn Stannis at least some grudging respect, even from all but the most ardent of his detractors, who arm themselves with the burning alive of prisoners, and the use of shadow/dark magic to create assassins.


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You'll tend to find people who don't like dany like Stannis. And as it stands not a lot of people like daenerys.

Stannis fans tend to do what Stannis does himself, turn a blind eye to the things he does wrong.

Don't like Stannis and I honestly don't know why people do but then again I love daenerys and could give a thousand reasons why whereas some couldn't give one.

That's what's great about these books. If one person hates one thing the next might love it. Not even just characters but plots and books. There's something everyone can enjoy and as it happens Stannis is it for people.

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his other redeeming factor is his daughter(He put her over Robert and Realm when it comes to duty). He even keep Patchface because of her. having Patchface around her doesn't affect her mental health or personality(she nicer and smarter than her mom). Stannis also supported by Eddard for king. He also respect Jon Snow. He has some funny moments like "even the Cook". While Eddard was more moral like Superman, Stannis is more like Batman(he is pragmatic).He the Captain Mal of Westeros(both are hard men and had events that make them not believe in faith ).


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Also in the books Stannis didn't knew what Mel would do. Can you blame him for something that happened without his knowledge?

Then why exactly did he besiege Storm's end with 5k men?

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Also in the books Stannis didn't knew what Mel would do. Can you blame him for something that happened without his knowledge?

It's been hinted by Mel herself that sex is involved when making a shadow baby. Stannis (who has sex like once a year and is very strict when it comes to law and vows) doesn't seem like the guy who would hop into bed with Mel without a reason. He's made two shadow babies and so he's slept with Mel twice. He knew what was happening and what he was doing.

If it was the shadow babies your talking about.

Edit - said hope into bed instead of hop

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I am pretty new to the forum, but a common theme I have seen is that people seem to really like Stannis. This came as a surprise to me as I did not find him a likable character at all reading the books...... He elicits no love in his followers and adheres to some strict sense of justice when it suits him, but then turns a blind eye at other times (Mance for example)....... He is labeled "the Mannis" when he hides behind the skirts of a witch and uses spells to punish the wrongfully accused "usurpers" Balon and Robb. Even if their rebellions (not usurping) were punishable by death at least have the decency to bring justice yourself rather than using blood magic........ He is about the closest thing you can get to a kin slayer. And don't act like he didn't know what making shadow babies was going to do. And then with Penrose, he turns down an honorable offer to do a duel of champions and instead uses a shadow assassin again........ He seems to be the only person outside of the NW who realizes the true danger and the real enemy to the realm. So what does he do with this knowledge? He kills a bunch of wildings and sends most of the rest packing to starve out in the wilderness and come back as wights. Then he leaves the watch to go wage war among the already depleted armies in the north who will be the realm's first line of defense. When the real enemy is at the gates, why keep squabbling over some chair? He should have given up his claim to the throne and brought his armies to the wall to help hold it against the armies of the dead (and argued for diplomacy with the wildings). Maybe the other houses would realize something is up when somebody like Stannis, who reportedly would never back down, gives up his claim to fight the real battle...... His one redeeming factor is that Davos is his man, and Davos is The Man. He is one of my favorite characters. But Stannis locks him away in a dungeon for weeks and only seldom actually takes his advice. And he lets his other advisers get burned alive, an absolutely gruesome way to go..... Anyway that is just how I saw Stannis when reading the books. Would some of the Stannis fans out there please help spread some light on this? And keep in mind this is 100% opinion. I am simply very confused.

I won't attempt to change your view, but I'd point out a few factual things:

1. Actually, he does seem to illicit certain amounts of love/loyalty/admiration from: Davos, Melisandre, Jon, Sam, and the common men under him. It is the lords that aren't fond of him. Asha observes, "Whatever doubts his lords might nurse, the common men seemed to have faith in their king." No, that isn't the whole of the realm, but it is worth pointing out.

2. So you don't agree with blood magic, fair enough. I don't see an issue with it versus non-magical/fantastic weapons. So fair enough.

3. Kinslayer gets thrown around all the time at various people (even Maekar) so sure he's a kinslayer in that he literally killed a family member. Renly was planning to do the same thing. He just got shanked first by a magical shadow.

4. Of course Stannis turned down the duel. He's a pragmatist and does not claim to be honorable. He remarks to Davos that he gave up his honor when he chose Robert over Aerys. So sure take issue that he isn't honorable, but he's not hypocritical there because he's never claimed to be honorable.

5. Davos got himself locked in a dungeon owning to the fact he tried to kill Stannis' other favored advisor.

6. Yes, he fought the Wildlings to save the NW. He also let those that would kneel into the realm because he understands that the more everyone bleeds each other, the weaker they'll be when the true enemy comes (para phase there of a quote from him).

7. Sure things might be different if Stannis had given up his claim to the throne, but saying he should do that is like asking the sky not to be blue. It ain't going to happen.

8. Personally, I like Stannis because in spite of very human flaws and failings he's trying to save the realm from what he and others believe is an existential danger to Westeros and all of humanity. As Samwell says, at least he came when all of the other lords and kings did nothing. I also like that he comes closest to a meritocracy. His three primary advisers are all outcasts/looked down upon by the social norms of Westeros: Davos the upjumped and knight smuggled/hand of the king, Melisandre a woman preaching a foreign religion but with real power, and Jon a bastard considered not trustworthy/honorable/useful in said society.

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OP you also seem to be confusing some of the show stuff with the books stuff. It's Axell Florent who puts Davos in the dungeons.



Also fighting against White walkers with 1500 soldiers, a band of rabble rapists/murders/thieves and a horde of untrained starving and scared savages while another enemy is at your back sound like a smart idea to you? Especially when the wildings are running from the WW because they can't fight them in the first place.



Alester Florent's idea could have cost Shireen her life, to say nothing of the damage it would've done to Stannis. Most of the other dudes Mel burned were behind his back.



I'm sure you can find better reasons!


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his other redeeming factor is his daughter(He put her over Robert and Realm when it comes to duty). He even keep Patchface because of her. having Patchface around her doesn't affect her mental health or personality(she nicer and smarter than her mom). Stannis also supported by Eddard for king. He also respect Jon Snow. He has some funny moments like "even the Cook". While Eddard was more moral like Superman, Stannis is more like Batman(he is pragmatic).He the Captain Mal of Westeros(both are hard men and had events that make them not believe in faith ).

Let's also remember that in Clash he was perfectly filling to let Renly be his heir until Selyse gave him a son. So yes he now sees Shireen as his heir and he no doubt loves/is concerned for her well-being he also hoped for a son as an heir. And from the POV we get in the book Selyse is the hands on/doting parent.

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As for the kinslaying? Can one be an honest kinslayer if it is in self-defense? If he didn't kill Renly, than Renly would have killed him.

It isn't self defense when you are the one that starts the entire conflict.

his other redeeming factor is his daughter(He put her over Robert and Realm when it comes to duty).

Does he? Seeing how he never interacts with her once and she is described as the saddest child that Cressen ever knew thus it appears she is pretty neglected by both parents.

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Then why exactly did he besiege Storm's end with 5k men?

Mel promised Renly would die. Stannis believed her, he just wasn't certain on how it would happen. He went to SE on faith that either he could convince Renly to set aside his crown, or die.

Regarding the thread, there's a thousand reasons people like Stannis. And no, despite what some would have you believe, most Stannis fans aren't blind to his flaws. That's actually why I love him so much. To me, Stannis is one of the most human characters in the story. Despite not being a POV, Stannis has this depth and complexity to him that is fantastic. He's thrown into morally ambiguous situations, and there never is really an easy answer for him. He's stuck between doing whats right and doing whats easy, and he doesn't always make the right decision. He basically has a devil and angel fighting on his shoulders, vying for his attention.

Stannis isn't really all that likable. He's not friendly, he's not nice. He can't hide behind good looks, isn't a great warrior, or the most brilliant strategist. But that what makes him the most human.

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Stannis, bran, and jon snow, are with differents degrees, the only ones who are fighting for the realm and their inhabitants.

Yeah, Daenerys does that in essos. But martins bad writting makes us no to care for essos people. And then when she talks about westeros and the IT she speaks the same BS as the other pretenders. Revenge, family, ownership, etc.

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Then why exactly did he besiege Storm's end with 5k men?

Remind me that was after or before Renly's death?

It's been hinted by Mel herself that sex is involved when making a shadow baby. Stannis (who has sex like once a year and is very strict when it comes to law and vows) doesn't seem like the guy who would hop into bed with Mel without a reason. He's made two shadow babies and so he's slept with Mel twice. He knew what was happening and what he was doing.

If it was the shadow babies your talking about.

Edit - said hope into bed instead of hop

Stannis had sex once a year with Selyse and he didn't had mistresses. That doesn't mean that he wouldn't had sex with Mel. Where in the books is said that he knew before?

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I am pretty new to the forum, but a common theme I have seen is that people seem to really like Stannis. This came as a surprise to me as I did not find him a likable character at all reading the books...... He elicits no love in his followers and adheres to some strict sense of justice when it suits him, but then turns a blind eye at other times (Mance for example)....... He is labeled "the Mannis" when he hides behind the skirts of a witch and uses spells to punish the wrongfully accused "usurpers" Balon and Robb. Even if their rebellions (not usurping) were punishable by death at least have the decency to bring justice yourself rather than using blood magic........ He is about the closest thing you can get to a kin slayer. And don't act like he didn't know what making shadow babies was going to do. And then with Penrose, he turns down an honorable offer to do a duel of champions and instead uses a shadow assassin again........ He seems to be the only person outside of the NW who realizes the true danger and the real enemy to the realm. So what does he do with this knowledge? He kills a bunch of wildings and sends most of the rest packing to starve out in the wilderness and come back as wights. Then he leaves the watch to go wage war among the already depleted armies in the north who will be the realm's first line of defense. When the real enemy is at the gates, why keep squabbling over some chair? He should have given up his claim to the throne and brought his armies to the wall to help hold it against the armies of the dead (and argued for diplomacy with the wildings). Maybe the other houses would realize something is up when somebody like Stannis, who reportedly would never back down, gives up his claim to fight the real battle...... His one redeeming factor is that Davos is his man, and Davos is The Man. He is one of my favorite characters. But Stannis locks him away in a dungeon for weeks and only seldom actually takes his advice. And he lets his other advisers get burned alive, an absolutely gruesome way to go..... Anyway that is just how I saw Stannis when reading the books. Would some of the Stannis fans out there please help spread some light on this? And keep in mind this is 100% opinion. I am simply very confused.

THANK YOU! I am glad I am no longer the only one who thinks Stannis is so greatly over rated! And he is not even that funny. He cheats on his wife with a witch to create evil and become a kin slayer. He makes no attempt to treat with the other warring factions, only to demand his brother's surrender (he was in the right there, but went about it the wrong way). He could have found an ally in Robb, but nope, lets just want him dead. He went to the defense of the Realm and went to the Wall, good job Davos there. I understand his marching on Winterfell, he needs the North both the take the Iron Throne and defend the Wall though.

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It isn't self defense when you are the one that starts the entire conflict.

Does he? Seeing how he never interacts with her once and she is described as the saddest child that Cressen ever knew thus it appears she is pretty neglected by both parents.

Actually, it is clear that both Stannis and Selyse love Shireen although we don't see Stannis as a hands on parent. Davos knows enough to appeal to the fact that Shireen loves playing with Edric and she'd be heartbroken if something were to happen to him (to deter him from sacrificing Edric). Stannis indicates he's well aware of that fact. She certainly isn't neglected by Selyse as Selyse is hands on and very concerned about her safety at the Wall.

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