The Skinner Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Say what you will about the guy, but Tywin Lannister got shit done. No matter how you feel about the guy personally, you can't deny the guy was a badass. The first time I read through ASOIAF I knew like everyone that he was important and a major player in the intrigues of the high lords but what really emphasizes how important he was to the realm was his death. After he dies so graciously at the hands of Tyrion, we hear from various characters in vastly different places about how opportune the moment is for their various goals now that Tywin Lannister is dead.So, how do you feel about Tywin? Is he a tragic figure who strives for perfection and takes it incredibly serious or is he just a humorless dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Onion Kniggit Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 I've always admire Tywin in ASOIAF for his political capabilities. After reading TWOIAF I actually felt kinda sympathetic towards him after seeing the way he was treated by Aerys and the rest of the court. As a person he was a cunt make no mistake but unlike his brain aneurysm inducing daughter, Tywin was a badass cunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihlus Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 A petty and arrogant man who was born with a lot of money and used it to hoard power from himself and smash the realm to pieces. The opposite of Tytos, yet somehow much, much worse as a lord. Too spiteful and cruel. A rapist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 The opposite of Tytos, yet somehow much, much worse as a lord. Too spiteful and cruel. How was he worse as a Lord than Tytos? Under Tytos there were three occasions that Aegon had to send in troops to keep the order, he left the coast unprotected and allowed the Ironborn to raid, he allowed the Tarbecks to steal land from other Lords. His lordship was chaos, he was an awful Lord. How exactly was Tywins Lordship of the Westerlands worse than his fathers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihlus Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 How was he worse as a Lord than Tytos? Lord Tytos didn't ensure the destruction of his own house. Tywin definitely has at this point by making so many enemies. If we're speaking of overall results for the realm rather than just his house, Tytos also never butchered tens if not hundreds of thousands of people. Nor did he ever have his lands occupied by an invading army, during a conflict that he started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastTymor Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 You might want to temper your admiration of his badassery with an examination his morals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Lord Tytos didn't ensure the destruction of his own house. Tywin definitely has at this point by making so many enemies. If we're speaking of overall results for the realm rather than just his house, Tytos also never butchered tens if not hundreds of thousands of people. Nor did he ever have his lands occupied by an invading army, during a conflict that he started. Tytos did have his lands invaded by the Ironborn, he even had minor lords so sick of the chaos of the Westerlands that they changed their fealty to the Reach. Tywin was a far better Lord of the Westerlands than his father was. It is ridiculous to think otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihlus Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Tytos did have his lands invaded by the Ironborn, he even had minor lords so sick of the chaos of the Westerlands that they changed their fealty to the Reach. Tywin was a far better Lord of the Westerlands than his father was. It is ridiculous to think otherwise. Which isn't even remotely the same thing as a full on military invasion involving the taking of major settlements like Ashemark. Nor is it comparable to the sheer amount of damage Tywin caused to the realm, or the absolutely shit state he left his house in. Like, his house, or at least every member that matters, is dead now. No question. Tywin was a far worse Lord of the Westerlands than his father was. It is ridiculous to think otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Which isn't even remotely the same thing as a full on military invasion involving the taking of major settlements like Ashemark. Nor is it comparable to the sheer amount of damage Tywin caused to the realm, or the absolutely shit state he left his house in. Tywin was a far worse Lord of the Westerlands than his father was. It is ridiculous to think otherwise. What has war in the Rivrlands got to do with Tywins Lordship over the Westerlands? Tywin gave the Westerlands peace for the vast majority of his Lordship. Tytos didnt, its pretty simple. Whining about how mean Tywin was does not change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihlus Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 What has war in the Rivrlands got to do with Tywins Lordship over the Westerlands? Tywin gave the Westerlands peace for the vast majority of his Lordship. Tytos didnt, its pretty simple. If by "peace" you mean "plunder and war, zero punishment for highborns murdering or raping whoever they want, the destruction of the ruling house, and probable economic strife". Tywin was a terrible lord. Whining about how bad Tytos was does not change that. By the way, Tywin was also Hand of the King and Warden of the West (as his father was). The security of the Riverlands is also his job. And the Riverlands are totally fucked right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 If by "peace" you mean "plunder and war, zero punishment for highborns murdering or raping whoever they want, the destruction of the ruling house, and probable economic strife". Yes, that all happened under Tytos. I dont get your point. What ruling House was destroyed while Tywin was Lord of the Westerlands.Tywin was also Hand of the King and Warden of the West (as his father was). The security of the Riverlands is also his job.I thought this was a comparison between father and son? Tytos was never Hand of the King so how can he be better or worse than Tywin? Tywin was a terrible lord. Whining about how bad Tytos was does not change that. You have him confused with Tytos. the books make it clear who the better Lord was. "The years that followed were as dismal as any in the long history of the westerlands. Conditions in the west grew so bad that the Iron Throne felt compelled to take a hand. Thrice King Aegon V sent forth his knights to restore order to the westerlands" World of Ice and Fire "Our own father was gentle and amiable, but so weak his bannermen mocked him in their cups. Some saw fit to defy him openly. Other lords borrowed his gold and never troubled to repay it. At court they japed of toothless lions. Even his own mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels! It fell to Tywin to restore House Lannister to its proper place. Just as it fell to him to rule this realm, when he was no more than twenty. He bore that heavy burden for twenty years and all it earned him was a mad king's envy." Kevan "I have served six kings, but here before us lies the greatest man I ever knew. Lord Tywin wore no crown, yet he was all a king should be" Pycelle "So at the age of five-and-twenty, Tywin Lannister became the Lord of Casterly Rock, Shield of Lannisport, and Warden of the West. With the Laughing Lion at last laid to rest, House Lannister had never been stronger nor more secure. The years that followed were golden ones, not only for the westerlands, but for all the Seven Kingdoms." World of Ice and Fire Do you have any evidence from the books showing that Tytos was the superior Lord? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihlus Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Yes, that all happened under Tytos. I dont get your point. What ruling House was destroyed while Tywin was Lord of the Westerlands.I thought this was a comparison between father and son? Tytos was never Hand of the King so how can he be better or worse than Tywin? You have him confused with Tytos. the books make it clear who the better Lord was. "The years that followed were as dismal as any in the long history of the westerlands. Conditions in the west grew so bad that the Iron Throne felt compelled to take a hand. Thrice King Aegon V sent forth his knights to restore order to the westerlands" World of Ice and Fire "Our own father was gentle and amiable, but so weak his bannermen mocked him in their cups. Some saw fit to defy him openly. Other lords borrowed his gold and never troubled to repay it. At court they japed of toothless lions. Even his own mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels! It fell to Tywin to restore House Lannister to its proper place. Just as it fell to him to rule this realm, when he was no more than twenty. He bore that heavy burden for twenty years and all it earned him was a mad king's envy." Kevan "I have served six kings, but here before us lies the greatest man I ever knew. Lord Tywin wore no crown, yet he was all a king should be" Pycelle "So at the age of five-and-twenty, Tywin Lannister became the Lord of Casterly Rock, Shield of Lannisport, and Warden of the West. With the Laughing Lion at last laid to rest, House Lannister had never been stronger nor more secure. The years that followed were golden ones, not only for the westerlands, but for all the Seven Kingdoms." World of Ice and Fire Do you have any evidence from the books showing that Tytos was the superior Lord?That'd be House Lannister. Which survived Tytos's reign, and will not survive Tywin's. He was Warden of the West. The Riverlands never burned during his time as Warden. So your evidence is a bunch of Lannister lickspittles praising Tywin? The same ones that say he was justified in every crime he committed? Lol. Anyway, not sure what the top two were even supposed to prove. I knew that already, but Tywin's awfulness is on a whole different level. The evidence is that Tytos's rule never led to a full-on military invasion of the Westerlands, the deaths of hundreds of thousands, and the collapse of House Lannister, while Tywin's did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 That'd be House Lannister. Which survived Tytos's reign, and will not survive Tywin's. Pretty sure Tywins been dead for around a year in Westeros and House Lannister survived. Not only has House Lannister survived but during his reign as Lord of the Westerlands not one, but two of his grandchildren have been Kings of Westeros. Whatever the future holds, the Lannisters survived Tywins reign. He was Warden of the West. The Riverlands never burned during his time as Warden.Riverlands is not part of the the West. I cant believe you didn't know that.So your evidence is a bunch of Lannister lickspittles praising Tywin? The same ones that say he was justified in every crime he committed? Lol. Anyway, not sure what the top two were even supposed to prove. I knew that already, but Tywin's awfulness is on a whole different level.So any evidence provided from the books is just going to be labelled not good enough? That seems pretty weak. Whereas you are providing bupkis to support your argument. Seems fair.The evidence is that Tytos's rule never led to a full-on military invasion of the Westerlands, the deaths of hundreds of thousands, and the collapse of House Lannister, while Tywin's did.House Lannister didnt collapse while Tywin was alive. How do you know more Westerland people died during the reign of Tywin that the reign of Tyrtos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beautiful Balon Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Tywin was a competent dude who generally made the right decision but he was also an asshole of epic proportions. This assholeness undermined Tywin's achievements by making everyone hate him. If Tywin wasn't such an asshole he would be a truly awe inspiring dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 A monster who has brought nothing but death and destruction to a country and his backstory is not even that tragic compared to the hell he made of others' backstories. Tywin was nothing amazing just a evil man who dealt out atrocities to innocents and got lucky in life up until his death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihlus Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Pretty sure Tywins been dead for around a year in Westeros and House Lannister survived. Not only has House Lannister survived but during his reign as Lord of the Westerlands not one, but two of his grandchildren have been Kings of Westeros. Whatever the future holds, the Lannisters survived Tywins reign. Riverlands is not part of the the West. I cant believe you didn't know that.So any evidence provided from the books is just going to be labelled not good enough? That seems pretty weak. Whereas you are providing bupkis to support your argument. Seems fair.House Lannister didnt collapse while Tywin was alive. How do you know more Westerland people died during the reign of Tywin that the reign of Tyrtos?Ooooh, a year. Just wait. Tywin sowed the seeds of his house's destruction by making so many enemies and leaving no viable heirs. It's only been a short time since the start of the war, yet already significant progress has been made towards the destruction of House Lannister. His remaining grandson is clearly going to die. As is every other member of House Lannister. The Riverlands fall under the jurisdiction of the Warden of the West in times of major war. I can't believe you didn't know what. There are four Wardens, and the Warden of the West isn't just in control of the Westerlands' security, otherwise there'd be no point to the rank. No, evidence from people who are known to be suck-ups to Tywin are not good enough. Especially when they blatantly ignore reality. I have the actual books and events to support me, which include such gems as Tywin making enemies out of most of Westeros, Tywin letting his lands get invaded and plundered, Tywin starting the war in the Riverlands, Tywin not punishing lords for their crimes on the Westerlanders (and, indeed, committing some himself), and Tywin failing to leave any viable heir behind. What exactly do you have except comments from people who are explicitly Lannister lickspittles who have been known to tell blatant lies? Robb was supposed to have ravaged the Westerlands with the same ferocity that Tywin ravaged the Riverlands. Considering that Tywin's initial raids (before the main event, consisting of only a few dozen to a few hundred guys) had entire towns being butchered to the point where literally a few people from each town were left... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Than a Storm Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Here’s my three part analysis/opinion on Tywin:Tywin was an amazing leader, ruler, strategist, negotiator, commander, and warrior.Tywin was an asshole. However, he has reasons for being the way that he is. Knowing his backstory, especially what his father was like and how Aerys treated him, I am sympathetic.Tywin was not completely heartless. He proves this by not committing infanticide with Tyrion. In the context of Westeros being a harsh, harsh world, I think many fathers, Lordly or otherwise, would strongly consider abandoning, killing (through neglect or more direct action) their child that would be considered “deformed,” especially if the mother had died in labor. While the idea that Tyrion “killed” his mother by being born is a very unsympathetic view, I could understand Tywin feeling that way when he had just lost his wife. Joanna meant the world to Tywin, but he did not hold her death against Tyrion. At least, he did not take it so far as to kill or abandon Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Ooooh, a year. Just wait. Why wait? You claimed that "Which survived Tytos's reign, and will not survive Tywin's.". Well Tywins reign has been and gone and the Lannisters survived it, not only survived it but prospered from it as has the Westerlands according to evidence from the books. If you can provide textual evidence for your argument that Tytos was a better Lord of the Westerlands than his son than please do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihlus Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 Why wait? You claimed that "Which survived Tytos's reign, and will not survive Tywin's.". Well Tywins reign has been and gone and the Lannisters survived it, not only survived it but prospered from it as has the Westerlands according to evidence from the books. If you can provide textual evidence for your argument that Tytos was a better Lord of the Westerlands than his son than please do. Yes, "the effects of Tywin's reign" would be more accurate. Unfortunately he died before he could properly witness how badly he fucked up. That happens pretty often in this series. Already done. You have read books 4 and 5, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Mac Posted May 25, 2015 Share Posted May 25, 2015 We don't know if House Lannister will survive the series (I think it's very likely they will), so using that as an argument against Tywin is silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.