The true location of Dany's house with the red door

[Rho'd Berth]

Beyond a line of stony hills the grass grew greener and more lush, and there were lemon orchards watered by a spider's web of old canals. Garin was the first to spy the river glimmering in green...

.

Low of roof and wide abeam, the poleboats had hardly any draft to speak of; the Young Dragon had disparaged them as "hovels built on rafts," but that was hardly fair. All but the poorest orphan boats were wonderfully carved and painted.

this is spot on!

1. lemon orchards watered by a spider's web = organized by Varys, the spider

2. Garin was the first to spy = spy Varys

3. Reference to the Young Dragon, Dany is the Young Dragon of this time and it's also a reference to the Dragons / Targaryens in general

4. poorest orphan boats: Viserys = beggar king, poorest orphan, Dany and Viserys are the poorest orphans

So there are 4 direct references here that support the idea that Dany was raised here and not in Braavos.

Combine that with the entire already existing lemon tree / fields / braavos climate theory we already have and it's a done deal.

Good find!

[EastTymor]

^ Wow, how were we so blind? Daenerys repeatedly says the house was in braavos so she must have been raised in braavos.

How foolish we were to think this wasn't true because every description she has given us doesn't match up with braavos

So Dany can't tell the difference between Braavos and Dorne? They are quite different, lemon trees and houses with red doors aside.

[Balerion the kitten]

So Dany can't tell the difference between Braavos and Dorne? They are quite different, lemon trees and houses with red doors aside.

Daenerys's knowledge of geography is limited. She's never seen braavos so how would she know? If she went to braavos she might actually be able to tell the difference.

It's the exact same with dorne. She doesn't know if she was raised there, same way we don't.

How's she supposed to know if what she's been told is a lie?

Example if I were told that I'm in fact not living in Britain because Britain is actually tropical weather and I've actually been living in Greenland, how am I supposed to know? It goes against what I've been taught.

Exact same with this

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Daenerys's knowledge of geography is limited. She's never seen braavos so how would she know? If she went to braavos she might actually be able to tell the difference.

It's the exact same with dorne. She doesn't know if she was raised there, same way we don't.

How's she supposed to know if what she's been told is a lie?

Example if I were told that I'm in fact not living in Britain because Britain is actually tropical weather and I've actually been living in Greenland, how am I supposed to know? It goes against what I've been taught.

Exact same with this

Actually...

Money talks...

From ASOS:

Once on a voyage to Braavos, as she'd watched the crew wrestle down a great green sail in a rising gale, she had even thought how fine it would be to be a sailor. But when she told her brother, Viserys had twisted her hair until she cried. "You are blood of the dragon," he had screamed at her. "A dragon, not some smelly fish."

So there we have Dany traveling to Braavos while Viserys beats her identity into her.

As Dany travelled to Braavos later in life as well, had she not grown up in Braavos, but elsewhere, you'd think that she'd realise... The fact that she did go to Braavos later in life, and still believes even after that that she did grow up in Braavos, should show that the two memories match quite well, imo...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I've been pretty partial to the argument that Dany's memories of the house with the red door, with the lemon tree outside had to have been in Dorne as opposed to Braavos. This theory has been rehashed enough times before so I'm not going to go back into it. But the question remained that if her red door house was in Dorne, where in Dorne would this house have been located? During a recent reread of AFOC, I think I may have found the location.

During Arianne's flight to the Greenblood river where the houseboats of the Orphans of the Greenblood were located, we get this description:

Dany describes the house as a big house with a red door. She recalls running barefoot to the house. She also recalls a lemon tree outside the window. In the House of the Undying, she sees a vision inside of the house described thusly:

While Dany thought of it as a big house, childhood memories, especially half-remembered memories like she has, makes you recall things as being bigger then they actually were. Here we have the grass where a young girl could have run through barefoot, the lemon trees, carved wood, and beams. Pretty much everything that jives with her memories of the red door house.

So Dany mixed up living on a boat with living in a big house?

Who kept her in Dorne with him/her? And why did Doran ever let her go? And why would Viserys go along with it?

[EastTymor]

Daenerys's knowledge of geography is limited. She's never seen braavos so how would she know? If she went to braavos she might actually be able to tell the difference.

It's the exact same with dorne. She doesn't know if she was raised there, same way we don't.

How's she supposed to know if what she's been told is a lie?

Example if I were told that I'm in fact not living in Britain because Britain is actually tropical weather and I've actually been living in Greenland, how am I supposed to know? It goes against what I've been taught.

Exact same with this

Lets start from the beginning of the books. Dany is in Pentos, specifically Illyrio's mansion, and has been there for 6 months. Surely we can agree on this?

For nigh on half a year, they had lived in the magister's house, eating his food, pampered by his servants. Dany was thirteen, old enough to know that such gifts seldom come without their price, here in the free city of Pentos.

She would have been twelve and a half when she arrived. Do you agree that she ought to have accurate memories of where she was immediately prior to coming to Pentos?

Where was that exactly? She has been to at least one other Free City:

A hundred merchants and traders were unloading their goods and setting up in stalls when they arrived, yet even so the great market seemed hushed and deserted compared to the teeming bazaars that Dany remembered from Pentos and the other Free Cities.

She remembers being in Tyrosh; she bought sausages from street vendors there:

"When I was a little girl, I loved to play in the bazaar," Dany told Ser Jorah as they wandered down the shady aisle between the stalls. "It was so alive there, all the people shouting and laughing, so many wonderful things to look at … though we seldom had enough coin to buy anything … well, except for a sausage now and again, or honeyfingers … do they have honeyfingers in the Seven Kingdoms, the kind they bake in Tyrosh?"

She recalls Lys as being crowded.

An old city, this, she reflected, but not so populous as it was in its glory, nor near so crowded as Qarth or Pentos or Lys.

Dany says that Viserys visited nearly all the Free Cities, including Braavos. Doubtless he dropped her off at Dornish Daycare and went without her, yes?

"My brother visited Pentos, Myr, Braavos, near all the Free Cities. The magisters and archons fed him wine and promises, but his soul was starved to death. A man cannot sup from the beggar's bowl all his life and stay a man.

Of course she also remembers being in Braavos herself (all the quotes I posted earlier, plus a few more that did not mention houses with red doors). You say she was confused, misremembering or fooled. But she does remember leaving Braavos and going elsewhere. At what point do her memories become reliable?

They had wandered since then, from Braavos to Myr, from Myr to Tyrosh, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any one place.

Is she misremembering all that? Did she actually go from Hellholt to Sunspear and on to Plankytown?

She also recalls sailing to Braavos, presumably after she left the first time.

Once on a voyage to Braavos, as she'd watched the crew wrestle down a great green sail in a rising gale, she had even thought how fine it would be to be a sailor.

Or was that Dorne as well?

At first the magisters and archons and merchant princes were pleased to welcome the last Targaryens to their homes and tables, but as the years passed and the Usurper continued to sit upon the Iron Throne, doors closed and their lives grew meaner. Years past they had been forced to sell their last few treasures, and now even the coin they had gotten from Mother's crown had gone. In the alleys and wine sinks of Pentos, they called her brother "the beggar king." Dany did not want to know what they called her.

Dany remembers visiting multiple magisters, archons, and merchant princes. Additionally we learn that she had not been couped up in a house- she has been out talking to people in alleys and wine sinks. These people would tell her if she was in Dorne rather than the Free Cities. Also, they would reveal, by their accents, clothing, etc that they were who they claimed to be.

In addition to Dany's stated memories and thoughts, she famously reveals that she speaks Valyrian, as they do in the Free Cities, but not in Dorne. Moreover, Valyrian is not a language she picked up recently.

You could never tell what treasures the traders might bring this time, and it would be good to hear men speaking Valyrian again, as they did in the Free Cities.

. . .

Dany smiled. "My son has his name, but I will try your summerwine," she said in Valyrian, Valyrian as they spoke it in the Free Cities. The words felt strange on her tongue, after so long.

Further evidence of her being comfortable hearing Valyrian spoken, perhaps similar to how she felt about the house with the red door?

It was good to hear men speaking Valyrian once more, and even the Common Tongue, Dany thought as they approached the first ship.

Then there is the contract with the Sealord of Braavos. To be clear, I think that your notion that Dany is totally unreliable when it comes to anything that is not a lemon tree to be totally ridiculous. However, we now get outside confirmation that she was in Braavos, which ought to put the final nail in the coffin. If Dany was already in Dorne, there would have been no need for the Sealord to witness the pact, or for a pact to exist. Doran would just have married Viserys to Ariane on the spot.

"If it please Your Grace, may I first present my gift?"

"If you wish," Daenerys said, curious, but as Frog started forward Daario Naharis stepped in front of him and held out a gloved hand. "Give this gift to me."

Stone-faced, the stocky lad bent, unlaced his boot, and drew a yellowed parchment from a hidden flap within.

"This is your gift? A scrap of writing?" Daario snatched the parchment out of the Dornishman's hands and unrolled it, squinting at the seals and signatures. "Very pretty, all the gold and ribbons, but I do not read your Westerosi scratchings."

"Bring it to the queen," Ser Barristan commanded. "Now."

Dany could feel the anger in the hall. "I am only a young girl, and young girls must have their gifts," she said lightly. "Daario, please, you must not tease me. Give it here."

The parchment was written in the Common Tongue. The queen unrolled it slowly, studying the seals and signatures. When she saw the name Ser Willem Darry, her heart beat a little faster. She read it over once, and then again.

"May we know what it says, Your Grace?" asked Ser Barristan.

"It is a secret pact," Dany said, "made in Braavos when I was just a little girl. Ser Willem Darry signed for us, the man who spirited my brother and myself away from Dragonstone before the Usurper's men could take us. Prince Oberyn Martell signed for Dorne, with the Sealord of Braavos as witness." She handed the parchment to Ser Barristan, so he might read it for himself. "The alliance is to be sealed by a marriage, it says. In return for Dorne's help overthrowing the Usurper, my brother Viserys is to take Prince Doran's daughter Arianne for his queen."

. . .

"If my brother Viserys had known that he had a Dornish Princess waiting for him, he would have crossed Sunspear as soon as he was old enough to wed."

Finally, your theory is not internally consistent. As I understand it, your thinking goes as follows:

1. Dany remembers growing up with a lemon tree in Braavos.
2. Braavos is mentioned as being largely tree-less
3. The climate in Braavos is too cold for lemons
4. Dorne is warm enough to grow lemon trees, and is noted as having them several times.
5. Braavos and Dorne would be indistinguishable to Dany.
6. Therefore Dany must have grown up in Dorne

If the temperature differential between Braavos and Dorne is so great as to make lemon growing impossible in one and easy in the other, it would also make it impossible to mistake one for the other.

Further, Braavos and Dorne are easily distinguishable. One is a huge city in the colder north. The other has no cities, and is a sunny desert. We know that Dany has experienced both northern (Pentos, etc) and southern (Slaver's Bay, etc) climates. We know that she has experienced huge cities (Pentos, etc) and deserts (the Red Waste). She would have to be a drooling idiot not to put 2 and 2 together and realize that she had grown up in Dorne, not Braavos.

TL;DR there is a vast body of evidence showing that Dany grew up in the Free Cities, not Westeros. It would require a vast conspiracy by many, unrelated and uninterested people and monumental cluelessness by Dany to make your theory hold water. You have one piece of (ambiguous, inconsistent, insufficient) evidence and nothing else.

[Dorian Martell]

I'm still going with Sealord's Palace, considering the marriage deal between Arianne and Visery was witnessed by a Sealord of Braavos.

The fact that Prince Oberyn travelled to Braavos to sign the marriage pact, which was witnessed by the Head of State of Braavos, shows that Dany and Viserys were living in Braavos. At that point, Braavosi foreign policy must have been staunchly pro-Targaryen. A new Sealord presumably reversed the policy, and expelled the pair of them.

Those two.

Here is another thing for the folks saying that lemons cannot grow in Bravos.

It is called a Greenhouse. they have them in winterfell. The Glass Gardens. Jon muses about them at the wall and how if the watch had the coin he would build them to grow fruits and vegetables for the watch during the winter.

To all of you red door deniers, why would George, a great writer, mention something like that if he didn't want to open the possibility of them being used in another wealthy place, like the Sealord's Palace?

The best part is that it takes far less plot gymnastics to make it work.

Greenhouses=lemon trees in Bravos

OR

Rhaella and Viserys fled to dragonstone, After the Queen dies, Darry splits himself in two takes Viserys to Bravos. and takes Dany to Dorne. she stays there for quite some time, learning to speak free city valyrian from Bravosi ex pat servants until Darry dies and then does not remember the long boat ride up the narrow sea to meet her abusive brother who then travels around after with her after the other half of Darry croaks in Bravos.

Yeah, makes total sense, with the splitting of a person.

[ElizabethB.]

. But enjoy your irrelevant annecdotes about Canadian horticulture.

I may be sexually progressive, but that does not make me "loose." Take your antiquated judgements and shove 'em.

Diretroll in action :)

[Balerion the kitten]

TL;DR there is a vast body of evidence showing that Dany grew up in the Free Cities, not Westeros. It would require a vast conspiracy by many, unrelated and uninterested people and monumental cluelessness by Dany to make your theory hold water. You have one piece of (ambiguous, inconsistent, insufficient) evidence and nothing else.

Yeah well you're a poopy head.

I think it's fair to say you have proven me wrong

[Clegane'sPup]

At first I liked the idea that Dany was in Dorne. I thought that perhaps she had mixed up her childhood memories.

As in, red doors at Dragonstone, lemon trees in Dorne, house in Braavos.

Then, I looked at the locations on the map in the book flaps. It would make no sense for Darry & company (wet nurse for infant) to travel from Dragonstone down to Dorne and then back up to Braavos. I also took into account that Dany was supposed to be five when Darry died.

I did a red door search on http://asearchoficeandfire.com/and came up with 19 quotes from the books. So I assume that the red door is important is some manner.

Then I did a search for lemon tree and came up with five quotes.

I’m going to have to go with the opinion that Dany’s memories were formed in Braavos or that her memories are incorrect.

[EastTymor]

Yeah well you're a poopy head.

I think it's fair to say you have proven me wrong

Your graciousness is appreciated.

[Lord Wraith]

Your graciousness is appreciated.

You made many excellent points. The thing is why does Martin consistently bring up Dorne and lemons? Is it just a red herring?

[EastTymor]

You made many excellent points. The thing is why does Martin consistently bring up Dorne and lemons? Is it just a red herring?

Does he? Lemons come up frequently, and often not in the context of Dorne. Lem Lemoncloak is a person. Sansa, Arya, Cersei, Jeor Mormont, Stannis and many others eat or drink lemons at various points. Martin occasionally uses it as a metaphor.

[SerBert]

Sure, written by a guy named Martin:

The fact that GRRM always has to associate the red door with Braavos instantly makes me suspicious. It's like he is trying to make us believe the house is in Braavos for a reason.

On the other hand, I see no reason for it to matter where Dany lived other then huge, plot changing reasons that will really change a lot of theories and peoples perception of the story.

[Lord Wraith]

Does he? Lemons come up frequently, and often not in the context of Dorne. Lem Lemoncloak is a person. Sansa, Arya, Cersei, Jeor Mormont, Stannis and many others eat or drink lemons at various points. Martin occasionally uses it as a metaphor.

Yes but when speaking of locations and lemons it's Dorne. I mean even two of the released WoW chapters directly mention it.

[FearFacesNorth]

Daenerys's Own WHEN receive the letter Quentyn given: THIS was signed in bravíos at home Door matter roja.Este matter f f is the mystery of the UN is not turned themselves continue to create jobs because of this.

Yes, the United Nations are, in fact, the REAL Azor Ahai reborn.

[Frey family reunion]

Lets start from the beginning of the books. Dany is in Pentos, specifically Illyrio's mansion, and has been there for 6 months. Surely we can agree on this?

She would have been twelve and a half when she arrived. Do you agree that she ought to have accurate memories of where she was immediately prior to coming to Pentos?

Where was that exactly? She has been to at least one other Free City:

She remembers being in Tyrosh; she bought sausages from street vendors there:

She recalls Lys as being crowded.

Dany says that Viserys visited nearly all the Free Cities, including Braavos. Doubtless he dropped her off at Dornish Daycare and went without her, yes?

Of course she also remembers being in Braavos herself (all the quotes I posted earlier, plus a few more that did not mention houses with red doors). You say she was confused, misremembering or fooled. But she does remember leaving Braavos and going elsewhere. At what point do her memories become reliable?

Is she misremembering all that? Did she actually go from Hellholt to Sunspear and on to Plankytown?

She also recalls sailing to Braavos, presumably after she left the first time.

Or was that Dorne as well?

Dany remembers visiting multiple magisters, archons, and merchant princes. Additionally we learn that she had not been couped up in a house- she has been out talking to people in alleys and wine sinks. These people would tell her if she was in Dorne rather than the Free Cities. Also, they would reveal, by their accents, clothing, etc that they were who they claimed to be.

In addition to Dany's stated memories and thoughts, she famously reveals that she speaks Valyrian, as they do in the Free Cities, but not in Dorne. Moreover, Valyrian is not a language she picked up recently.

Further evidence of her being comfortable hearing Valyrian spoken, perhaps similar to how she felt about the house with the red door?

Then there is the contract with the Sealord of Braavos. To be clear, I think that your notion that Dany is totally unreliable when it comes to anything that is not a lemon tree to be totally ridiculous. However, we now get outside confirmation that she was in Braavos, which ought to put the final nail in the coffin. If Dany was already in Dorne, there would have been no need for the Sealord to witness the pact, or for a pact to exist. Doran would just have married Viserys to Ariane on the spot.

Finally, your theory is not internally consistent. As I understand it, your thinking goes as follows:

1. Dany remembers growing up with a lemon tree in Braavos.

Braavos is mentioned as being largely tree-less

The climate in Braavos is too cold for lemons

Dorne is warm enough to grow lemon trees, and is noted as having them several times.

Braavos and Dorne would be indistinguishable to Dany.

Therefore Dany must have grown up in Dorne

If the temperature differential between Braavos and Dorne is so great as to make lemon growing impossible in one and easy in the other, it would also make it impossible to mistake one for the other.

Further, Braavos and Dorne are easily distinguishable. One is a huge city in the colder north. The other has no cities, and is a sunny desert. We know that Dany has experienced both northern (Pentos, etc) and southern (Slaver's Bay, etc) climates. We know that she has experienced huge cities (Pentos, etc) and deserts (the Red Waste). She would have to be a drooling idiot not to put 2 and 2 together and realize that she had grown up in Dorne, not Braavos.

TL;DR there is a vast body of evidence showing that Dany grew up in the Free Cities, not Westeros. It would require a vast conspiracy by many, unrelated and uninterested people and monumental cluelessness by Dany to make your theory hold water. You have one piece of (ambiguous, inconsistent, insufficient) evidence and nothing else.

[Frey family reunion]

To Ser Meryn (my quote function seems screwed up).

My response to your questions is how reliable are your memories from when you were two years old? How reliable are your memories from when you were three? Let's go to four years of age. Our memories get better as we get older but the younger we are, the less likely we are to remember events. I have vague recollections of events from when I was four, very few if any from when I was three, and none before that.

What I'm suggesting is that Dany was taken from Plankytown at a very young age and brought to Braavos to join Viserys. Everything she knows about Dragons Stone and her flight to Braavos by her own admission all comes through Viserys. She remembers none of it. Viserys has told her that she was born on Dragon Stone and that Willem Darry and four brave men smuggled them out of Dragon Stone and brought them to Braavos. I'm suggesting at least as to her part in this story, that Viserys is lying to her. Dany was never in Dragonstone, but at a very young age she was brought from Dorne to Braavos.

But she believes Viserys, who has been the only influence in her life absent vague memories of Ser Willem Darry. So her memories of the house with the red door with the lemon tree she naturally attributes to Braavos, because she has been told that was where she was taken shortly after she was born. She has subconscious memories of her time in Dorne but not conscious ones. Which is why Quaithe is constantly telling her to remember who she is.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

There's no reason Dany couldn't have spent time in both Braavos AND Dorne as a child. We never get Viserys' POV, so his not mentioning it has no bearing on the issue--he's concerned with the future far more than the past.

After Ser Willam died, they were kicked out of the house in Braavos. For the next years they traveled a lot. They spent time in Tyrosh (Dany's speech has a slight Tyroshi accent) among other places. Why is it so hard for people to imagine that Uncle Doran might have hid them temporarily while he found another safe place for them to go? Heck, that could be what Darkstar knows that makes him dangerous.

It's very likely that Dany's house with red doors and lemon trees is an amalgam of places she lived back when she was a little girl who didn't worry about anything. The red door could actually represent a subconscious tie to Dragonstone. The lemon tree could be Dorne, or someplace else, and she has some of her earliest memories from Braavos, so she just assumes that all of it belongs there.

[EastTymor]

Yes but when speaking of locations and lemons it's Dorne. I mean even two of the released WoW chapters directly mention it.

I haven't read those yet, so I have no comment.