Margaery too confident?

[Nerevanin]

And there you are correct. I posit Margaery's requests for moon tea from Pycelle were made on behalf of Taena Merryweather. Taena likely had several reasons for this subterfuge, one of the most likely was Cersei's unstable mental state.

The key to it all as far as Margaery's trial is whether Taena returns from Longtable to testify.

If the high Septon insists trying Margaery for say sacrilege of the "Maiden's Day" ceremony then it is a pretty much foregone conclusion that Margaery will be guilty. Margaery's only way out would be to confess, offer an explanation eg "horse riding", beg forgivness and offer penance.

Even if Taena or some girl of Margaery's friends came and confessed that the moon tea was meant for her and for Margaery, who would believe it? They'll just say that the Tyrells bribed or blackmailed the girl in order to save Margaery. The Tyrells already swore that Margaery was virgin although she wasn't and they killed not only Pycelle who exposed the little queen but also Kevan, probably because he could influence the king as his uncle. Bribery would would be just another crime on the Tyrells' list. And don't forget that Margaery's dad has brought all his army with him and installed it in the city. One could see it as indirect threats of sacking the city or something like that in case something happened to his precious daughter.

[Gerg Sknab]

Even if Taena or some girl of Margaery's friends came and confessed that the moon tea was meant for her and for Margaery, who would believe it? They'll just say that the Tyrells bribed or blackmailed the girl in order to save Margaery. The Tyrells already swore that Margaery was virgin although she wasn't and they killed not only Pycelle who exposed the little queen but also Kevan, probably because he could influence the king as his uncle. Bribery would would be just another crime on the Tyrells' list. And don't forget that Margaery's dad has brought all his army with him and installed it in the city. One could see it as indirect threats of sacking the city or something like that in case something happened to his precious daughter.

Why wouldn't Taena testifying to such not be believed? The Merryweathers are of the upper caste. Taena is a close confidant of Cersei's and at this point in the novels Cersei's motives and methods toward Margaery seem untoward to most unbiased observers and well jaundiced by the High Septon. You would think in a trial by the Faith that Taena's testimony would be a breath of fresh air.

Why would the Tyrell's be accused of Kevan and Pycelle's killing when in fact it is Kevan himself who says "There are...there are hundreds of Lannister guardsmen in this castle." You would think at least one of them would have noticed Tyrell hitmen skulking in the halls. Then again we don't know what rumours the dawn might bring.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Yes but if I'm not mistaken there were more people than just Pycelle and Cersei when Pycelle admitted that Margaery had wanted moon tea from him, weren't there?

OK, so if one of those second hand witnesses were questioned by the court, what would they say?

- Did Grand Maester provide the queen with moon tea?

- Yes. I mean, he said so.

- When?

- Dunno...

- Once, or often?

- Dunno...

- Did she at least drink it herself?

- Dunno...

And so on. No, I don't see the dead guy's testimony to have any value, even if people think he told the truth. And after Osney Kettleblack admitting to perjury on Cersei's orders, I don't think "Cersei's star witness must be telling the truth" would be anyone's first thought.

Also: Janos Slynt once had a problem with some officers willing to testify about his corruption. But they had some unfortunate accidents, and that was the end of the inquiry. Dead people don't count.

[HexMachina]

OK, so if one of those second hand witnesses were questioned by the court, what would they say?

- Did Grand Maester provide the queen with moon tea?

- Yes. I mean, he said so.

- When?

- Dunno...

- Once, or often?

- Dunno...

- Did she at least drink it herself?

- Dunno...

And so on. No, I don't see the dead guy's testimony to have any value, even if people think he told the truth. And after Osney Kettleblack admitting to perjury on Cersei's orders, I don't think "Cersei's star witness must be telling the truth" would be anyone's first thought.

Also: Janos Slynt once had a problem with some officers willing to testify about his corruption. But they had some unfortunate accidents, and that was the end of the inquiry. Dead people don't count.

Not just Osney admitting to that either. Every accused lover save the Blue Bard, who was quite clearly mad. There would have to be some serious curve ball for the case against Margaery to stand, imo

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Always a good point. Always figured that being Queen was more important than getting laid.

That is why I believe that just maidenhead meant nothing and everyone knew about it. That is why they needed witnesses.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Not just Osney admitting to that either. Every accused lover save the Blue Bard, who was quite clearly mad. There would have to be some serious curve ball for the case against Margaery to stand, imo

I had the Blue Bard delivered to the High Septon, as Your Grace commanded. He is here now, somewhere down below us. My whisperers tell me that they are whipping him, but so far he is still singing the same sweet song we taught him.” The same sweet song.

(....)

“And her accusers?” the queen demanded. “Who holds them?”

“Osney Kettleblack and the Blue Bard are here, beneath the sept. The Redwyne twins have been declared innocent, and Hamish the Harper has died. The rest are in the dungeons under the Red Keep, in the charge of your man Qyburn.”

Qyburn, thought Cersei. That was good, one straw at least that she could clutch. Lord Qyburn had them, and Lord Qyburn could do wonders. And horrors. He can do horrors as well.

by the time of the trial, all of them will confess of having sex with Marg.

[Nerevanin]

Why wouldn't Taena testifying to such not be believed? The Merryweathers are of the upper caste. Taena is a close confidant of Cersei's and at this point in the novels Cersei's motives and methods toward Margaery seem untoward to most unbiased observers and well jaundiced by the High Septon. You would think in a trial by the Faith that Taena's testimony would be a breath of fresh air.

Why would the Tyrell's be accused of Kevan and Pycelle's killing when in fact it is Kevan himself who says "There are...there are hundreds of Lannister guardsmen in this castle." You would think at least one of them would have noticed Tyrell hitmen skulking in the halls. Then again we don't know what rumours the dawn might bring.

Kevan can be seen as a victim of circumstances - the Tyrells killed Pycelle before he could spill more tea about the moon tea but Kevan came to visit Pycelle before the assassin could leave so the murderer had no choice but kill him. So Kevan wasn't supposed to die, he was just in a wrong time in a wrong place.

OK, so if one of those second hand witnesses were questioned by the court, what would they say?

- Did Grand Maester provide the queen with moon tea?

- Yes. I mean, he said so.

- When?

- Dunno...

- Once, or often?

- Dunno...

- Did she at least drink it herself?

- Dunno...

And so on. No, I don't see the dead guy's testimony to have any value, even if people think he told the truth. And after Osney Kettleblack admitting to perjury on Cersei's orders, I don't think "Cersei's star witness must be telling the truth" would be anyone's first thought.

Also: Janos Slynt once had a problem with some officers willing to testify about his corruption. But they had some unfortunate accidents, and that was the end of the inquiry. Dead people don't count.

But if several people independently on each other said that Pycelle had said that Margaery wanted some moon tea, it surely will have some impact.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

But if several people independently on each other said that Pycelle had said that Margaery wanted some moon tea, it surely will have some impact.

Again, the same questions, asked and unanswered: when? how often? did she even drink it? And several people independently shrugging and saying "dunno"... yes, it will have some impact.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

But if several people independently on each other said that Pycelle had said that Margaery wanted some moon tea, it surely will have some impact.

Who said that? What was their motive? Are they lying or not? How they can be sure that he wasn't lying?

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

OK, so if one of those second hand witnesses were questioned by the court, what would they say?

- Did Grand Maester provide the queen with moon tea?

- Yes. I mean, he said so.

- When?

- Dunno...

- Once, or often?

- Dunno...

- Did she at least drink it herself?

- Dunno...

And so on. No, I don't see the dead guy's testimony to have any value, even if people think he told the truth. And after Osney Kettleblack admitting to perjury on Cersei's orders, I don't think "Cersei's star witness must be telling the truth" would be anyone's first thought.

Also: Janos Slynt once had a problem with some officers willing to testify about his corruption. But they had some unfortunate accidents, and that was the end of the inquiry. Dead people don't count.

usually the dead man´s testimony carries more weight, since the witness actually got killed for it.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

usually the dead man´s testimony carries more weight, since the witness actually got killed for it.

"Got killed for it" is a big unfounded assumption. Maybe he got killed for entirely different reasons.

Also, as I pointed out above, dead men's testimonies were thrown in the trash can and never spoken about in Janos Slynt's case. So no, they didn't carry more weight, actually the opposite is true.

And, as I pointed out at least twice, this dead man's testimony is woefully incomplete, excluding such important details as "did she even drink it?".

[Victor227]

Mace Tyrell has Randyll Tarly, and some fifty-thousand odd judges on his side. These ones all carry swords too.

i think no matter what the High Septon thinks, or what conclusion the Faith-appointed judges come to, they're pretty heavily outvoted. Not only that, but Margery is loved by the commons. She makes a poor enemy for their cause to go after. She was bait to draw in Cersei, and leverage for the Faith to wield, but her usefulness has come to an end with Cersei broken, the Faith in a more powerful position than ever, and a vengeful Tyrell army right outside the city.

If the High Septon is operating with the intent of building power and influence, he'll use this is a chance to extoll the virtues of Margery and the Tyrells, and bind himself to the commons that support her. Of course, it's a dangerous game and anything could go wrong along the way for any party involved. Lots of swords, hot tempers, zeal, and all that's needed is a spark.

[Frey Kings]

While the trial is going on, Stannis sacks the city /end

[TimJames]

The little queen Margaery has agreed to a trial by the faith and she seems sure of her innocence but did she fuck up??

IIRC Pycelle admitted to Cersei that he brought her Moon Tea, which only really serves one purpose, and if he stands as a witness for the faith and tells the truth is'nt she kinda fucked?

And what would her punishment be for this offence?

Pycelle is a Lannister Lackey, so I don't believe his statement. He just so happens to reveal this after learning that Cersei is trying to get Margaery executed? Seems a little too convenient. I think Pycelle was just making it up to help the Lannister cause.

But in any case, Varys murdered Pycelle. Kind of hard for a dead man to testify, don't you think.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

"Got killed for it" is a big unfounded assumption. Maybe he got killed for entirely different reasons.

Also, as I pointed out above, dead men's testimonies were thrown in the trash can and never spoken about in Janos Slynt's case. So no, they didn't carry more weight, actually the opposite is true.

And, as I pointed out at least twice, this dead man's testimony is woefully incomplete, excluding such important details as "did she even drink it?".

It doesn´t matter if its a big unfounded assumption... what matters is what people ussually think in these cases.

when a witness is killed, people often think the accused killed him,..

house tyrell will profit with pycelle and Kevan´s death.. therefore its reasonable to assume people will think they did it.

[Balerion the kitten]

I also agree with everyone here. Margaery will lose her trial, serves better to the plot. All hell will be let lose when it does because the lannisters, tyrells and the faith will be at one another's throats.

Then Cersei will truly lose her power. After all it was the reach's power that kept them on the throne. Then we can read the chapters we need, the mad king chapters cause that's what Cersei will become then.