Why Dorne Failed (hint: it's not the acting or writing)

[Stan Man]

There's something rotten in Season 5, and it's Dorne.

I think much of the forum has reached a general consensus that the Dorne storyline has been very poorly handled, but most of the complaints I see are due to weak writing, blatantly bad acting, and the cartoonish characterizations of reasonably cartoony characters in the novels. But it's not the writing or the acting that makes the Sand Snakes so bad: it's their culture.

From the moment that the decision was made to cut Arianne and list Trystane as heir, they made a huge mistake. As many have noted, Arianne's proximity to the throne of Dorne makes her unique and emblematic of the entire Dornish culture. But, if you eliminate this rule (which made Dorne likable compared to the rest of patriarchal Westeros), the Sand Snakes are left without a solid cause.

So, instead of attempting to name Myrcella queen, they want to capture her/kill her/whatever, purely as revenge for Oberyn's death. This is not terrible writing, it's terrible plotting. Why?

• The Sand Snakes ignore the fact that Oberyn died in a legal trial-by-combat. It was not a murder. He was not cornered or surrounded. He made the conscious decision to fight for Tyrion; he gloated when he thought he had won; and then he paid the price. This revenge storyline is terrible.
  
• Ellaria has every right to be distraught over Oberyn's death, but turning her into a murderer is not the way to do it.
  
• We don't kill little girls in Dorne, Oberyn said. Cue Ellaria orchestrating the death of Myrcella.
  

Arianna held the Sand Snakes together. Now, I agree that it's easier to keep Ellaria since the audience already knew her and loved her. I would have rather seen Ellaria, Arianne, and Tyene (cut Obara and Nym) as a kickass Dornish trio; instead, The Powers That Be:

• Destroyed the most crucial element of Dornish culture
  
• Eliminated one of the most female-empowering characters, Arianne
  
• Led four underdeveloped characters on a ridiculous, inexplicable mission
  
• Built up a lot of hype for one of the most altered storylines this season (besides Sansa)
  

Sure, the writing is bad. And I cringe every time I watch Obara say, "I am Obarrra Saand, daughter of Oberrryn Marrrtell. I fight for Dorrrrne."

But it's not the writing or the acting. It's D&D's decision to ruin Dornish culture and change the storyline in the wake of that ill-plotted decision.

[Lerxst]

To paraphrase Myrcella, "What are you doing here?". sums it about up.

Dorne was best left as "that distant place you hear stories about" rather than trying to bring it to life. The mystery about it was part of the attraction of it, as for the TV show at least.

There's no need for anything that has taken place in Dorne to have taken place in Dorne. That's my biggest gripe about Dorne hogging screen time this season. Two characters, Jaime and Bronn, are now stuck half a world away where... nothing is happening instead of being used somewhere... anywhere else that would move the plot along.

[Wyman Manderly's Meat Pies]

The only problems I have with Dorne's story this year is this.

"We do not harm little girls in Dorne" - Oberyn

"We must torture and kill this little girl...FOR OBERYN" - Oberyn's idiot girlfriend and daughters.

It literally baffles me that this made it through the writers room.

[Arya and Needle]

I think it's a pretty good point by the OP, that this decision was the source of the trouble.

I'll make one nitpick: the "We don't kill little girls in Dorne" isn't a plothole to me, it's foreshadowing (and applies equally well to the book version of events).

[Denam_Pavel]

Dorne should've kicked off in episode 1, before they know Tywin, who they DO have a reasons to want dead, is already murdered. And instead of Ellaria, it should've been the Sand Snakes confronting Doran and just like the books, Areo is eventually sent to imprison them. Difference is they manage to keep out of Areo's grasp, they find out Jaime's in Dorne, and race to secure Myrcella. Also frees up Ellaria to just be at Sunspear having scenes with Doran, not yearning for revenge but upset her daughter's now a fugutive.

[Good Guy Garlan]

All the problems of Dorne stem from cutting Arianne, really. You take out the focus if the storyline and everything naturally falls apart, and Arianne is the focus.

The Sand Snakes, even if you think they're cool or whatever, are simply not made to carry out an storyline by themselves or being the center of emotion. They're far too Chaotic Neutral for that.

You needed Arianne and her struggle, you needed to see Doran as she sees him at first, as a useless old fart who prefers his son over his daughter, only to have our expectations subverted when he shows his true (red and black) colors.

So that's really it: the audience has no character to relate to or root for in show!Dorne, and the closest one (Doran) is the one we shouldn't necessarily be rooting for at first before the reveal.

I think D&D thought that the audience loved Oberyn so much that we'd be yelling, "Yeah, kill that innocent little girl! Revenge for O-Man!"

But they were so off the mark. They might think revenge is like the most interesting motivation ever but it's really not.

[The Human Abstract]

Well, that is the writing if you ask me.

[HexMachina]

If you are saying the problem is the decision to cut Arriane, then that is a decision concerning the writing. So yes, it is the writing that is the problem.

Also, cutting Arriane didn't necessitate that pointless scene this week in the cell

[Grayven]

I'd say the fault is 50% writing, 30% acting, and 20% back to the source material for waiting so long to include them in the story.

[sweetsunray]

To be honest, while I'm rather fond of the Dornish culture in the books, I also find it rather a naïve unnuanced culture, including Arianne... Sure, they're hot headed about revenge, and hot on sex. But even their need for vengeance is almost bordering the naïve. It's almost as if they are playing at war, over anything else. Arianne thinks she's so clever and so does Quentyn, tyring their hand at seduction and deception, but her plan with Myrcella again comes off as foolhardy, dumb (even before it ends in disaster), and Quentyn gets BBQd. Is it a coincidence that it's the region of 'lemon trees' (youth)? Don't think so. Doran wants to be smarter about it, but he overdoes it so much that well the fruit got overripe and splashes on the floor for nothing. The sole characters in that area who seem less or not naïve are Hotah and Darkstar (a Dayne who's pre-Rhoynish). Even Oberyn (no matter how much I like the guy) has that childlike quality

It's endearing to read about in the books - kindof "aaah, look they're trying to plot - the little kids trying to be grown ups." But it's one of the hardest things to translate on screen. On screen it simply becomes slapstick or cartoonesque. And then the simplification and leaving out Arianne does the rest. Still, even if they had kept Arianne, and the original plot of Dorne, it would have still not worked on screen imho.

[Mithras]

In general, whether you love them or hate them, everyone should agree that AFfC and ADwD are not easy to adapt into the series unlike the first three books.

All the problems of Dorne stem from cutting Arianne, really.

And this stems from cutting fAegon. Without fAegon to marry, Arianne is pointless and Doran seems like he will be the one to orchestrate the Queenmaker plot.

[Mithras]

Dorne is being set up as an enemy to Dany in the books. Without Quentyn and without fAegon, the only way to make Dany and Dorne enemy is the Queenmaker plot for the show. Now that Dany married a slaver and does not seem like coming soon, Doran will agree to proceed with Trystane-Myrcella marriage and at the same time, make use of the Sandsnakes to eliminate Tommen. When Dany comes, Trystane-Myrcella will be the couple that will fight her in the South. This way, there is no reason to cast Arianne.

[ADanceWithCats]

But it's not the writing or the acting. It's D&D's decision to ruin Dornish culture and change the storyline in the wake of that ill-plotted decision.

Aren't you exaggerating a bit? We don't have a bird's-eye view of the show Dorne plot yet. It's likely that it will end with Doran explaining that he was the one who effectively sent for Jaime, and that he wants him to make peace with Cersei or fight for Myrcella as a Queen. Or something. It can also end with him explaining that Trystane is actually Aegon. A lot of stuff can happen. Right now, we're in an extended introduction phase - so far, we know what Obara and Tyene are like. Nym still to go.

e: Nym and Trystane himself, obviously, actually!

[+cassius]

The worst is past with the Dornish.

Jaime x Doran scenes should be quality. Trystane and Areo didn't look that bad either.

[King Arthurzico]

The thing about the Sand Snakes and Ellaria trying to kill Myrcella is not about an "eye for an eye" because of Oberyn.

They have the same reasoning than Darkstar: if they kill Myrcella, Cersei will want war, and Dorne will rebel against the throne no matter what Doran wants.

Of course this makes much more sense in the books since Arienne is the heir of Dorne. In the show Ellaria wants war purely for revenge.

The big fails for me are:

1) The Sand Snakes are too cartoonish. Sure they are cartoonish in the books too, but in the books they are not so central to the story, we have Arienne as the principal character in that storyline.

2) Jaime's motives. It was painfull to watch him trying to explain himself to Bronn, it just doesn't make sense, and everyone knows it. If they needed someone the audience already knew in Dorne to present the new characters, couldn't they make Jaime and Bronn go to Dorne to bring the Mountain's head?

[marsyao]

I agree the Dorne plot fails miserably in the TV, but I do not understand how could it is not a failure for the writing? In the novel, the Dorne story makes perfect sense to me

[Denam_Pavel]

To be honest, while I'm rather fond of the Dornish culture in the books, I also find it rather a naive unnuanced culture, including Arianne... Sure, they're hot headed about revenge, and hot on sex. But even their need for vengeance is almost bordering the naive. It's almost as if they are playing at war, over anything else. Arianne thinks she's so clever and so does Quentyn, tyring their hand at seduction and deception, but her plan with Myrcella again comes off as foolhardy, dumb (even before it ends in disaster), and Quentyn gets BBQd. Is it a coincidence that it's the region of 'lemon trees' (youth)? Don't think so. Doran wants to be smarter about it, but he overdoes it so much that well the fruit got overripe and splashes on the floor for nothing. The sole characters in that area who seem less or not naive are Hotah and Darkstar (a Dayne who's pre-Rhoynish). Even Oberyn (no matter how much I like the guy) has that childlike quality

It's endearing to read about in the books - kindof "aaah, look they're trying to plot - the little kids trying to be grown ups." But it's one of the hardest things to translate on screen. On screen it simply becomes slapstick or cartoonesque. And then the simplification and leaving out Arianne does the rest. Still, even if they had kept Arianne, and the original plot of Dorne, it would have still not worked on screen imho.

I'm sorry, how is this different from literally everyone else in the books. Ned was cartoonishly honourable. Daenerys spends 4 books slowly grasping that the father she wants vengeance was a jerk and that the throne might not be exactly what she wants. If there wasn't Narrow Sea seperating her from Westeros, she would've had thousands murdered by her dothraki horde or slave army before she'd have gone "oh, this was a bad idea." Robb fought a war of revenge, had the decision to just be king decided for him, without any idea of how to keep that Riverlands, a part of his kingdom safe. Jon has too be stopped from committing all kinds of impulsive acts and look where it eventually brought him. Let's not even get into all the petty acts of revenge Cersei and Tyrion commit against each other and those around them. Arianne and Quentyn don't get crapload of men to command and have to deal with the results of their shortsightedness personally, instead of hundred people dying before it gets back too you, that's all that seperates them from our protagonists.

[Stan Man]

Aren't you exaggerating a bit? We don't have a bird's-eye view of the show Dorne plot yet. It's likely that it will end with Doran explaining that he was the one who effectively sent for Jaime, and that he wants him to make peace with Cersei or fight for Myrcella as a Queen. Or something. It can also end with him explaining that Trystane is actually Aegon. A lot of stuff can happen. Right now, we're in an extended introduction phase - so far, we know what Obara and Tyene are like. Nym still to go.

e: Nym and Trystane himself, obviously, actually!

I don't think Doran "sent" for Jaime, though.

Ellaria wanted to be all badass, so she sent a threat to Cersei. Jaime reacted by rushing to Dorne to save his daughterniece from potential harm from the Sand Snakes. I agree that we're in an introduction phase, and we won't know how important Dorne is to the show storyline until Season 6. I don't believe the show will introduce Aegon at all, so I'm curious about Dorne's importance. I think D&D wanted to cut Aegon (too lengthy or unnecessary), but keep Dorne (Oberyn was a favorite), and it resulted in these nonsensical changes.

[Denam_Pavel]

We're still in an introductonary phase in episode 7. The Dornish plot won't actually be underway until we leave Dorne behind and Jaime, Tyene and Nymeria go to stupid KL, that's what fails ADanceWithCats

[Stan Man]

2) Jaime's motives. It was painfull to watch him trying to explain himself to Bronn, it just doesn't make sense, and everyone knows it. If they needed someone the audience already knew in Dorne to present the new characters, couldn't they make Jaime and Bronn go to Dorne to bring the Mountain's head?

I'm expecting that the Mountain in the show will keep his head. In the scene with Qyburn last season, Gregor seemed to have his head and for production reasons I think they'll keep it that way.

I'm sorry, how is this different from literally everyone else in the books. Ned was cartoonishly honourable. Daenerys spends 4 books slowly grasping that the father she wants vengeance was a jerk and that the throne might not be exactly what she wants. If there wasn't Narrow Sea seperating her from Westeros, she would've had thousands murdered by her dothraki horde or slave army before she'd have gone "oh, this was a bad idea." Robb fought a war of revenge, had the decision to just be king decided for him, without any idea of how to keep that Riverlands, a part of his kingdom safe. Jon has too be stopped from committing all kinds of impulsive acts and look where it eventually brought him. Let's not even get into all the petty acts of revenge Cersei and Tyrion commit against each other and those around them. Arianne and Quentyn don't get crapload of men to command and have to deal with the results of their shortsightedness personally, instead of hundred people dying before it gets back too you, that's all that seperates them from our protagonists.

I don't think the Sand Snakes were cartoonish in the books. And what makes a character "cartoonish" is that they have a one-dimensional personality and often follow character stereotypes and archetypes.

Ned: Cartoonishly honorable BUT he fathered a bastard and has a secret past. And his honor got him killed. Not cartoonish. Gruesome.

Daenerys: Seen as a favorite. The savior. The one who will return. Until people realize she has no claim, is a horrible leader, and a bad judge of character. Ruins her achetype.

Robb: The fact that he failed as king means that he is NOT cartoonish. A cartoonish Robb Stark would succeed at mostly everything and survive the Twins. Instead he was a boy king that made plenty of mistakes and it brought him down. Similar to his father.

Jon: A "cartoonish" Jon would not have porked Ygritte or have been Caesared. Again, he made mistakes that directly contradicted his character arc. A cartoonish Jon Snow would not have been stopped by Night's Watchmen, but would have ridden to King's Landing to avenge his father.

The Sand Snakes are cartoonish (besides Arianne) because they just hiss for revenge and they are flatter than pancakes. Or crepes.