Why Dorne Failed (hint: it's not the acting or writing)

[Denam_Pavel]

I don't think the Sand Snakes were cartoonish in the books. And what makes a character "cartoonish" is that they have a one-dimensional personality and often follow character stereotypes and archetypes.

Ned: Cartoonishly honorable BUT he fathered a bastard and has a secret past. And his honor got him killed. Not cartoonish. Gruesome.

Daenerys: Seen as a favorite. The savior. The one who will return. Until people realize she has no claim, is a horrible leader, and a bad judge of character. Ruins her achetype.

Robb: The fact that he failed as king means that he is NOT cartoonish. A cartoonish Robb Stark would succeed at mostly everything and survive the Twins. Instead he was a boy king that made plenty of mistakes and it brought him down. Similar to his father.

Jon: A "cartoonish" Jon would not have porked Ygritte or have been Caesared. Again, he made mistakes that directly contradicted his character arc. A cartoonish Jon Snow would not have been stopped by Night's Watchmen, but would have ridden to King's Landing to avenge his father.

The Sand Snakes are cartoonish (besides Arianne) because they just hiss for revenge and they are flatter than pancakes. Or crepes.

I only accused Ned of being cartoonishly honourable. Let's not get into his alleged bastard. All i'm saying is, just cause Arianne and Quentyn didn't get a chance to learn from their mistake, like everyone before their own plans were scrapped, doesn't mean their culture is naive compared to the rest of Westeros. Arianne and Quentyn's plans weren't even about revenge. Other people's need for revenge plays heavily into their story but they themselves got bigger stuff on their mind. And Quentyn REALLY wasn't counting on his skills at seduction.

[Cas Stark]

Aren't you exaggerating a bit? We don't have a bird's-eye view of the show Dorne plot yet. It's likely that it will end with Doran explaining that he was the one who effectively sent for Jaime, and that he wants him to make peace with Cersei or fight for Myrcella as a Queen. Or something. It can also end with him explaining that Trystane is actually Aegon. A lot of stuff can happen. Right now, we're in an extended introduction phase - so far, we know what Obara and Tyene are like. Nym still to go.

e: Nym and Trystane himself, obviously, actually!

Who is going to care what Doran says or does? Nobody in Dorne has gotten enough screen time for the audience to connect with them. The Sand Snakes are Charlies Angels in period costumes plus some bad acting and very poorly choreographed fight scenes. Ellaria of the hair bob has done nothing but blather about revenge. Tryst and Mycella, who cares?

Compare that to last year when by the end of his FIRST SCENE the audience was wowed by Oberyn, great music, great vibe, despite the crazy sex orgy you got a sense of the character and personality.

[King Zee]

I think D&D thought that the audience loved Oberyn so much that we'd be yelling, "Yeah, kill that innocent little girl! Revenge for O-Man!"

But they were so off the mark. They might think revenge is like the most interesting motivation ever but it's really not.

Yeah I think D and D had it backwards. They thought since the audience loved Oberon so much they would naturally transfer their allegiance to his daughters , forgetting they had to make the daughters interesting.

Aren't you exaggerating a bit? We don't have a bird's-eye view of the show Dorne plot yet.

Episode 7 is done and we dont have the Drone plot yet. Thats part of the problem, this plotline is meandering, waiting for something to happen.

My changes. If youre going to delete Arriane then---

Keep Ellaria as the grieving 'widow' --give her the role of talking to Doran . Let their conversation flesh out Dorne.

Make Obara the leader of the Snakes. Let her be the one charging in yelling at Doran about revenge.

The frees up an entire 3 minute scene to let the Sand Snakes talk among themselves. You notice we havent seen them say two words to each other ?

The Snakes completely fail the Betchel test.

[King Zee]

double post

[Good Guy Garlan]

In the novel, the Dorne story makes perfect sense to me

Really? Well, to each their own, but if I could've changed something from book!Dorne it would've been to

1) Remove the POV of Oreo and Arys and give those chapters to Arianne

2) Include "The Watcher" near the end of AFfC to convey that Dorne is really going to affect other storylines big time and that it's not going to be weirdly isolated

[The Eunuch]

I don't think Dorne "failed" in the show. People expected a lot from this plot (epicness, game changing twists...), but when they realized that it's just a few fights and all being arrested, they were disappointed.

But it's just the introduction to Dorne and its characters. What's next will be important : Doran's plan and the Martell beginning to play the game of thrones (with sand snakes in the Small Council, in the Great Sept, at the Citadel, with a wedding between Trystane and Myrcella - or maybe Dany...). This season's Dorne is just the introduction, the set up.

[King Zee]

). This season's Dorne is just the introduction, the set up.

A whole season wasted for 'set up'

[The Eunuch]

A whole season wasted for 'set up'

Is it different in the books? The crowning attempt failed too. All the Dorne stuff in the book was to introduce Doran's "Fire and blood" plan with Dany...

[Denam_Pavel]

Is it different in the books? The crowning attempt failed too. All the Dorne stuff in the book was to introduce Doran's "Fire and blood" plan with Dany...

We got more character from all the Sand Snakes, Aero and Doran in the first chapter then we'll get this whole season. The show can suffer from the nature of it's format from time to time but it's rarely been this bad. More world building too.

[Cas Stark]

Is it different in the books? The crowning attempt failed too. All the Dorne stuff in the book was to introduce Doran's "Fire and blood" plan with Dany...

As so many people have loved to point out, books and TV are not the same. You cannot waste an entire season on 'set up' and expect to retain your audience. Doran's fire and blood plan itself is pretty stupid in the books, but it has been set up even worse in the show. I can't imagine any show only viewers care at all about any of the Dornish characters or whatever their plans may be.

[sifth]

To be honest, was Dorne all that great in the books. We have maybe 5 chapters of Dorne in the books and not a whole lot happens. Just a lot of people angry that Oberyn is dead and a few characters coming up with ideas to piss off the Lannisters as a result. Ohh, one very under developed member of the Kingsguard dies, but that's about it.

[Denam_Pavel]

To be honest, was Dorne all that great in the books. We have maybe 5 chapters of Dorne in the books and not a whole lot happens. Just a lot of people angry that Oberyn is dead and a few characters coming up with ideas to piss off the Lannisters as a result. Ohh, one very under developed member of the Kingsguard dies, but that's about it.

Arianne didn't do what she did for Oberyn, or at least it was nowhere close to the main reason. And if the producers feel that way, then don't do Dorne. Go do a plot you're actually willing to devote ten minutes of an episode on.

[YoungGriff89]

To be honest, while I'm rather fond of the Dornish culture in the books, I also find it rather a naïve unnuanced culture, including Arianne... Sure, they're hot headed about revenge, and hot on sex. But even their need for vengeance is almost bordering the naïve. It's almost as if they are playing at war, over anything else. Arianne thinks she's so clever and so does Quentyn, tyring their hand at seduction and deception, but her plan with Myrcella again comes off as foolhardy, dumb (even before it ends in disaster), and Quentyn gets BBQd. Is it a coincidence that it's the region of 'lemon trees' (youth)? Don't think so. Doran wants to be smarter about it, but he overdoes it so much that well the fruit got overripe and splashes on the floor for nothing. The sole characters in that area who seem less or not naïve are Hotah and Darkstar (a Dayne who's pre-Rhoynish). Even Oberyn (no matter how much I like the guy) has that childlike quality

It's endearing to read about in the books - kindof "aaah, look they're trying to plot - the little kids trying to be grown ups." But it's one of the hardest things to translate on screen. On screen it simply becomes slapstick or cartoonesque. And then the simplification and leaving out Arianne does the rest. Still, even if they had kept Arianne, and the original plot of Dorne, it would have still not worked on screen imho.

I never even thought how the well the blood oranges bit in Areo's first chapter fit as foreshadowing that Doran has done too much waiting. And I'm a huge fan of the Godfather lol.

[Cas Stark]

To be honest, was Dorne all that great in the books. We have maybe 5 chapters of Dorne in the books and not a whole lot happens. Just a lot of people angry that Oberyn is dead and a few characters coming up with ideas to piss off the Lannisters as a result. Ohh, one very under developed member of the Kingsguard dies, but that's about it.

I didn't like Dorne in the books, I didn't like the Greyjoys that much in the books. I don't know how important any of the new characters are to the end of the story...but Dan and Dave do...and they know the rest of the main set pieces of the story as well.

So, based on knowing the end, they should have been able to make some decisions on who to include, who to cut and pick a couple of those characters to focus on and develop.

[P13RCE]

I think Dorne was incredibly weak both in the books and the show. I hated Quentyn and Areo chapters. The only decent ones were Arys (Intro to Dorne, storyline and Myrcella + sex scene) and the Arianne where she's talking to Doran (Plot reveals). All other Ariannes were weak too. In the show, the sand snakes are stupid and hateable, however Jaime being in Dorne is a bit interesting.

At least there's no Quentyn in the show (Thank god). I think GRRM included Dorne to make the books longer and give someone in the final conflict another ally, that's all... RIP Oberyn, the only cool thing about Dorne.

[Gendry_Goldeneyes]

they shoulda brought arriane to kings landing with Oberyn instead of eleria and all would be good in the world

[Lordsteve666]

My problem with Dorne is that in the books it adds in another large number of new characters who all need introductions, storylines, backstories etc. And this was at a time when we already had a bulging book filled with literally hundreds or characters, both major and minor.

Now the book has the ability to go into great depth and can fit a number of these tangents in as it's partly world building and also an expansion of the story.

But in the show when they've literally cut the various plots to pieces and dropped all manner of different characters and stories it seems really odd to add in yet more characters. And it feels even more odd to add in extra characters and then not even follow their plots in the book but make it up as you go along. That alienates these newbies from many book readers who just cannot connect them with the book versions but at the same time realise that they are missing out on other characters who could have been portrayed much better.

I mean I personally would have left out Dorne entirely. I'd have gone back to the Iron Islands, whom we have already had established way back in S3 so we know several of the characters already. Also if you wanted a revenge plot you've already got Lady Stoneheart (or the Blackfish) together with the BwB in the Riverlands. Many well established (for the show) plots were cut out or just abandoned this season it seems but yet Dorne is getting all manner of hype and screentime thrown at it.

It also feels like Dorne is being shoved down your throat the whole time. The story is pretty poor but it appears constantly and it's essentially the same each week..."I am Obara Sand, blah blah blah...", here's some nudity/scantily clad women - YES WE GET IT, YOU WANT DORNE TO BE COOL AND SEXY!!!! There was so much potential but why waste it like this, use the valuable screen time of existing plots and characters.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Who is going to care what Doran says or does? Nobody in Dorne has gotten enough screen time for the audience to connect with them. The Sand Snakes are Charlies Angels in period costumes plus some bad acting and very poorly choreographed fight scenes. Ellaria of the hair bob has done nothing but blather about revenge. Tryst and Mycella, who cares?

Compare that to last year when by the end of his FIRST SCENE the audience was wowed by Oberyn, great music, great vibe, despite the crazy sex orgy you got a sense of the character and personality.

Oberyn is 100x more interesting of a character than anyone else in Doran could ever hope to be, especially on TV. He was also in an area of the story we already care about, rather than in the middle of nowhere in an area we barely know surrounded by characters we don't really care about yet (If at all -- I still don't give a shit about Doran, Arianne, Areo, Sand Snakes, or really anything happening in Dorne).

[Stan Man]

My problem with Dorne is that in the books it adds in another large number of new characters who all need introductions, storylines, backstories etc. And this was at a time when we already had a bulging book filled with literally hundreds or characters, both major and minor.

Now the book has the ability to go into great depth and can fit a number of these tangents in as it's partly world building and also an expansion of the story.

But in the show when they've literally cut the various plots to pieces and dropped all manner of different characters and stories it seems really odd to add in yet more characters. And it feels even more odd to add in extra characters and then not even follow their plots in the book but make it up as you go along. That alienates these newbies from many book readers who just cannot connect them with the book versions but at the same time realise that they are missing out on other characters who could have been portrayed much better.

I mean I personally would have left out Dorne entirely. I'd have gone back to the Iron Islands, whom we have already had established way back in S3 so we know several of the characters already. Also if you wanted a revenge plot you've already got Lady Stoneheart (or the Blackfish) together with the BwB in the Riverlands. Many well established (for the show) plots were cut out or just abandoned this season it seems but yet Dorne is getting all manner of hype and screentime thrown at it.

It also feels like Dorne is being shoved down your throat the whole time. The story is pretty poor but it appears constantly and it's essentially the same each week..."I am Obara Sand, blah blah blah...", here's some nudity/scantily clad women - YES WE GET IT, YOU WANT DORNE TO BE COOL AND SEXY!!!! There was so much potential but why waste it like this, use the valuable screen time of existing plots and characters.

I agree with a lot of what you said.

1. One of the reasons GRRM failed in Feast, in my opinion, is the amount of unnecessary POV characters in a single place. In Dorne, a single kingdom, we get 1 Arys chapter, 1 Areo chapter, and 2 Arianne chapters. Spread out over a 900 or whatever page book, that is too little character development for four chapters. Why is Areo even a narrator? Arys? Give Arianne, a central character, four chapters to herself (Arya got 3 chapters and Samwell got 5 in AFfC).

Additionally, in the Iron Islands, Aeron gets 2 chapters, Victarion gets 2 chapters, and Asha gets 1 chapter. GRRM should have stuck with Asha, an already established character (I found Aeron to be dreadfully boring, Vic was okay). That's partially why Jaime and Cersei's chapters in ASoS/AFfC were so successful, because GRRM had taken time to introduce the characters, then get us into their heads. Instead, AFfC has six narrators we've never heard met before - 6 out of 13. Centralize the narrators, focus the story. AFfC is the midway point, there's no time to create six new narrators.

At the end of Season 4, I never would have advocated leaving Dorne out. I think D&D failed monumentally. They had a perfect set-up, but they misplaced their audience's faith. As some other people pointed out, they focused too much on the revenge aspect. Yes, the audience loved Oberyn. Yes, the audience wanted to see a reaction from Oberyn's homeland. But focusing solely on the Sand Snakes griping minimalizes their characters. When I read the Dorne chapters, I was happy to see a kingdom not defined by patriarchy. It was a breath of fresh air and something to root for, even if their plan to raise Myrcella up failed.

I also agree that Doran should be shown more. I'm expecting the writers are trying to underplay him, so his big plan reveal is a shocker. The problem is, over the past seven hours of television, has Doran said more than twenty words? Both GRRM and D&D failed in extending the Dornish introduction, so it feels like fluff.

[marsyao]

I think Dorne was incredibly weak both in the books and the show. I hated Quentyn and Areo chapters. The only decent ones were Arys (Intro to Dorne, storyline and Myrcella + sex scene) and the Arianne where she's talking to Doran (Plot reveals). All other Ariannes were weak too. In the show, the sand snakes are stupid and hateable, however Jaime being in Dorne is a bit interesting.

At least there's no Quentyn in the show (Thank god). I think GRRM included Dorne to make the books longer and give someone in the final conflict another ally, that's all... RIP Oberyn, the only cool thing about Dorne.

The supposed "weakness" of the Dorne stories in the GRRM's novel has nothing to do with the extremely ridiculous Dorne stories in the TV show which is a folly D&D must take responsibility