Heresy 168

[Black Crow]

I think this is actually an intriguing possibility. While I agree with the BC that what we call the "white walkers" are not human, that doesn't mean that whoever/whatever is raising white walkers isn't human, and wasn't human even during the original Long Night.

So, as a generic example, if we say that the white walkers and wights of the Long Night were being raised by House Stark to conquer their fellow men, the CotF may have perceived this as a war that they had no part in.

It's a possible interpretation certainly, and I can see the logic certainly, but on the other hand I can also see problems.

Notwithstanding their altered state I could see the children recognising the walkers as men and that brief reference in Maester Yandel's book would support that. However that once again raises the question of who is creating the walkers. If men are responsible then from where did they get such powers? If men are not responsible then the logic fails because ultimately the walkers are the servants of those who created them and if those who created them are not men then the children are not justified in standing neuter on the grounds that the conflict is merely an internicine one between men.

[Armstark]

Ah well there you and I at least will have to continue to disagree because I'm still of the view that whilst Craster's boys were once human, they and their masters from the Nights King downwards are those who allied with the children against the encroaching world of men.

Well, I do believe the children had a hand in creating the Others in so far that they shared knowledge with men that made it possible and the men that eventually became the Others might have been the closest human allies of the children (and thus got the most knowledge). But I don't believe the children agreed with their methods or goals. I think the children are terrified how far you could take their magic and what abominations can be created. I think the children's nature is so peaceful that they would never have attempted something like creating the Others on their own. But:

The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us."

She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well. It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

The Others might think they are fighting on the side of the old gods and the children but the children don't see it that way I think.

So, to clarify, you're asserting that the fight between the First Men and the Others was a "human" conflict and therefore the Children wouldn't intervene? Because the Children hadn't noticed that the Others were rather inhuman? The Children seem rather observant. And the Others aren't subtle (once they show up). Not sure this works--needs thinking on.

I don't think the Others are that inhuman. There are humanoid, speak and fight similar to humans, are created from human sacrifices and are controlled by human souls. If not human what are they? Right, something other not seen before. Remember that when the Last Hero sought the children the Others were still a new phenomenon and furthermore the Others were somewhat fighting on the children's side. If one faction of humans fights against other humans that destroy weirwoods the children might have been reluctant to intervene. But ultimately they came around, it just took some convincing.

Indeed and its worth remembering just how central to this story the question of identity really is, and therein ultimately may be the biggest argument against R+L=J being as significant as some like to proclaim. Its primarily a story about the Stark children, their diaspora and in the end the reaffirmation of their identity as children of Winterfell. Bran, crippled and vulnerable is drawn to magic and the dark side; Arya, cut adrift is fighting against becoming no-one; Sansa, having rejected her family and betrayed her father is finding her way back to Winterfell [and perhaps to Jon] while Jon Snow the bastard is also at bottom a son of Winterfell and it is his affirmation of that rather than the chimera of the Iron Throne which will in the end define him.

While the story starts out as being primarily about the Starks I think the Lannisters are just as important now and in the resolution. GRRM's synopsis was mainly about wolf and lion too.

There is way to few discussion about the Lannisters in heresy I think.

[Voice]

Just to revert briefly to the matter of the children vis a vis men, I still think that my Native American parallel is accurate. Whilst we have that list of friendly encounters the big thing that's missing from the argument is that we're now a few thousand years down the line and in a very different Westeros. What's different is the Andals and their slaughtering of the children and burning of weirwoods. No matter how many men were allied to the children long ago far more turned against them and in the world now the children are facing extinction because men are the enemy.

I'm not saying it isn't somewhat accurate. I'm saying the text brings us tales of collaboration, rather than conflict, after the Pact.

And while some tribes did indeed resist westward expansion, others didn't. It seems that in the case of this fictional universe, not one group of singers raised protest once the terms of the Pact were broken. In this way, they are clearly not like the Sioux or Cheyenne. So the parallel only takes us so far. It fails to accurately explain FM-Singer relations after the Pact.

Or does it?

Bran VII AGOT

"But some twelve thousand years ago, the First Men appeared from the east, crossing the Broken Arm of Dorne before it was broken. They came with bronze swords and great leathern shields, riding horses. No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea. No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees. As the First Men carved out holdfasts and farms, they cut down the faces and gave them to the fire. Horror-struck, the children went to war. The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door. The wars went on until the earth ran red with blood of men and children both, but more children than men, for men were bigger and stronger, and wood and stone and obsidian make a poor match for bronze. Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.

"There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces.

"The Pact began four thousand years of friendship between men and children. In time, the First Men even put aside the gods they had brought with them, and took up the worship of the secret gods of the wood. The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and began the Age of Heroes."

Bran's fist curled around the shiny black arrowhead. "But the children of the forest are all gone now, you said."

"Here, they are," said Osha, as she bit off the end of the last bandage with her teeth. "North of the Wall, things are different. That's where the children went, and the giants, and the other old races."

Maester Luwin sighed. "Woman, by rights you ought to be dead or in chains. The Starks have treated you more gently than you deserve. It is unkind to repay them for their kindness by filling the boys' heads with folly."

"Tell me where they went," Bran said. "I want to know."

"Me too," Rickon echoed.

"Oh, very well," Luwin muttered. "So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea.

"The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests. The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end the six southron kingdoms all fell before them. Only here, where the King in the North threw back every army that tried to cross the Neck, did the rule of the First Men endure. The Andals burnt out the weirwood groves, hacked down the faces, slaughtered the children where they found them, and everywhere proclaimed the triumph of the Seven over the old gods. So the children fled north—"

Summer began to howl.

Maester Luwin broke off, startled. When Shaggydog bounded to his feet and added his voice to his brother's, dread clutched at Bran's heart. "It's coming," he whispered, with the certainty of despair. He had known it since last night, he realized, since the crow had led him down into the crypts to say farewell. He had known it, but he had not believed. He had wanted Maester Luwin to be right. The crow, he thought, the three-eyed crow . . .

Once again, an interruption distracts a storyteller. Don't you love that? There are a couple of different interwoven threads to consider in this particular narrative.

First, I think the cotf were first and foremost concerned with protecting their sacred weirwoods. This motivation overcame their desire to fight the colonizing wave of First Men. And this, more than anything else, was their purpose at the Isle of Faces. Their needs are different than Men, and this must be remembered. Unlike Native Americans, the cotf did not farm the soil. And, unlike Native Americans, cotf held trees to be more important than their own society. Now, I know people like to idealize and romanticize Native Americans, but the main reason for resistance during the colonization of the Americas is because natives were protecting their People, not their Habitat. The motivations of the cotf are very non-Man-like. The motivations of Native Americans are very human. Custer wasn't killed because the Lakota were protecting a sacred tree, he was killed because he had no legal right to bring armed forces into Sioux territory (even according to American law).

Once the Pact was forged, rather than force the bible upon the cotf, or abduct their children and imprison them in boarding schools, the First Men adopted the Old Gods as their own, and stopped cutting down weirwoods. This is quite the opposite of colonization in the United States. But, what's interesting, there are some real life parallels. Oral History, archaeological data, and genetic research have all corroborated accounts of Viking settlements in the New World that predate Columbus by hundreds of years. These are mainly in Canada. Rather than seek to exterminate the indigenous population, Nordic peoples sought commerce. And, being pagan themselves, one can imagine the relations being quite amicable (the genetic research seems to support this as well LOL). Really cool article here.

Even the French colonization of Canada, after Columbus, was far more amicable than the Spanish and British colonization of what is now the US. And, many Métis communities can be found there. Here, in the US, American bravado and a corrupted brand of Christianity narrowed minds to the extent that native populations were seen as savage beasts, rather than fellow human beings. Their attitude is mirrored in the text by the Andal Invasion.

This brings me to my point. After the Pact, First Men took up worship of the secret gods of the wood. The Old Gods. This worship would likely have forbidden the sorts of infighting you have been suggesting. The First Men went native. They adopted the indigenous religion, and by the time the Andals arrived, they were more like the cotf than they were the Andals, religiously speaking. As time wore on, the Andals and their holy book were thumping the heads of children and FM alike.

I think a case could even be made that First Men never broke the Pact. This is why the cotf continued to fight alongside FM during the Andal Invasion. And, why they are now giving aid to Bran Stark today.

Now, you can mistrust them. That is certainly the Andal way. But so far, the text has not born out the nefarious motives you have suggested.

[Sly Wren]

We don't know Benjen encountered anyone, let along one of Craster's suckling babes. But it does seem they are fleeing white walkers, whether from rumors of their return, or a direct encounter. And, it's not completely accurate to say that there's no hint of anything involving Benjen. The gaunt man seems quite familiar with Stark behavior, and laughs as if it's something he's seen often and recent:

Again, just an impression. But it's not baseless. In any case, it only changes our missing men under Benjen's command from two to four. If they were wighted, why weren't they with Othor and Jafer?

I doubt any of us imagine Benjen returning, or being found, any way but alone. I tend to think his men deserted. Mayhaps they saw him threaten where smarter men would beg.

Are you assigning a particular importance to the identity of these men and why they potentially fled Benjen? Probably everyone else sees where you are going with this, but I'm having trouble--Benjen as another Night's King parallel? Benjen as being currently in the custody of the Others? You don't have to humor me (obviously), but I'd love to know where you are going with this.

[Voice]

I think this is actually an intriguing possibility. While I agree with the BC that what we call the "white walkers" are not human, that doesn't mean that whoever/whatever is raising white walkers isn't human, and wasn't human even during the original Long Night.

So, as a generic example, if we say that the white walkers and wights of the Long Night were being raised by House Stark to conquer their fellow men, the CotF may have perceived this as a war that they had no part in.

Night's King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it's getting dark.

[Sly Wren]

The Others might think they are fighting on the side of the old gods and the children but the children don't see it that way I think.

I don't think the Others are that inhuman. There are humanoid, speak and fight similar to humans, are created from human sacrifices and are controlled by human souls. If not human what are they? Right, something other not seen before. Remember that when the Last Hero sought the children the Others were still a new phenomenon and furthermore the Others were somewhat fighting on the children's side. If one faction of humans fights against other humans that destroy weirwoods the children might have been reluctant to intervene. But ultimately they came around, it just took some convincing.

Yes--I could buy this. Am still intrigued by the idea of the connection between the Children and the Others--but this is a workable scenario.

[Sly Wren]

Oh again we're very much in agreement here, not just as to the question of identity, but also as to Sansa and the Branwen parallel. I don't know how early in the writing of the story GRRM may have decided to switch the connection with Jon from Arya to herself, but I think that this is the principal reason for her being substituted for the false Arya in the stripped down mummers' version and that its all foreshadowed by the snowflake communion.

Really quick--thank you, thank you. The Branwen parallel for Sansa as becoming a Singer (or someone who understands the Singers) seems so much more mystically satisfying than most of the scenarios I've read for Sansa (Hound replaces Lady, Sansa strictly a political figure and no longer mystical, warging birds--to do what? Tippi Hedren Cersei off of a balcony? Emotionally somewhat satisfying, but really, really silly). So, thanks. Enough on this topic.

[Matthew.]

If men are responsible then from where did they get such powers?

I'm not sure this is something that necessarily needs an answer, anymore than we need an answer as to how men learned to create shadow assassins, or raise dragons from stone. Nonetheless, I can think of a couple scenarios off the top of my head:

-They acquired them at the same time as they acquired the ability to skinchange and use green sight. If we assume that the CotF are capable of creating WWs, then the possibility exists that they could have passed that knowledge on, only to have men subsequently abuse that knowledge.

-It was a power that was "rediscovered." Think in terms of Asshai, and the Shadow Lands, where there seems to be remnants of a pre-human civilization that modern man is sort of bumbling through. Or, alternately, think of Valyria, and all of the magic there that may someday be rediscovered. Similarly, it may be the case that human pioneers in Westeros rediscovered something in the far north; the Heart of Winter, or whatever you want to call it. At the least, humans live at least far north as the Ice Rivers, so who's to say how far they went?

-It arose organically, like the religion and magic of the Faceless Men, perhaps even as a response to the Long Night's climactic conditions.

[Black Crow]

I'm not saying it isn't somewhat accurate. I'm saying the text brings us tales of collaboration, rather than conflict, after the Pact.

There are indeed but that was when they were dealing with the First Men. That was a long time ago even by the children's reckoning and a lot has changed since then. The men who made the Pact are not the men who rule Westeros now. The original amity may still exist to a degree beyond the Wall but it doesn't alter how low things have fallen.

That said I think that there may be some truth in the suggestion that those men who have actively allied themselves with the old races and identify more closely with them than with those who were once their fellow men, may have a big influence in what looks like a fight-back but ultimately its no more than influence and the children's magic.

[Voice]

Are you assigning a particular importance to the identity of these men and why they potentially fled Benjen? Probably everyone else sees where you are going with this, but I'm having trouble--Benjen as another Night's King parallel? Benjen as being currently in the custody of the Others? You don't have to humor me (obviously), but I'd love to know where you are going with this.

Just a random question, really. I was hoping to hear what ideas folks have as to Benjen's missing men. I think it is strange that two of Benjen's men, Othor and Jafer, returned as wights. And, I think it is strange that perhaps another two fled to the Wolfswood and were killed by riders from Winterfell.

It all reminds me of Ser Waymar Royce. The man Ben was sent to find. Ser Waymar rose as a wight, and strangled his observant, silent brother, Will. Will moves like Ghost through the wood, and there are few things he doesn't see, like Jon. Also like Jon, he is strangled by a wight. But I digress...

In Ser Waymar's party, Will survives (at first). Waymar falls to the Other. And Gared escapes to the Wolfswood.

Benjen remains missing, but Othor and Jafer return as wights, and likely fell to an Other. Stiv and Wallen escaped to the Wolfswood.

I see Benjen (not Howland) enlightening Jon as to his parentage, so I'd like to see him return near the end of the series. GRRM likes to crush our hopes though, so I picked up on these parallels and brought them up here in the hopes that they were wrong. But I fear they are not.

[Black Crow]

Just a random question, really. I was hoping to hear what ideas folks have as to Benjen's missing men. I think it is strange that two of Benjen's men, Othor and Jafer, returned as wights.

Well I suppose there is the simple answer that they were too badly "damaged" in their last fight to actually make it back. A dead man with one leg isn't going to get far.

That said, it conjures the image of the last of Benjen's men finally making it back to Castle Black in the epilogue to Dream of Spring, his knees, elbows and clothing worn away to the bones and beyond after crawling hundreds of miles through the forest long after the crows eat anything worth chewing :devil:

[Voice]

There are indeed but that was when they were dealing with the First Men.

And who are they "dealing with" now?

That was a long time ago even by the children's reckoning and a lot has changed since then. The men who made the Pact are not the men who rule Westeros now. The original amity may still exist to a degree beyond the Wall but it doesn't alter how low things have fallen.

I completely agree. But the North Remembers. While the South has gone to hell in a handbasket, the North has remained true to the Pact, a friend to the Watch, and still teaches their kids to respect and revere the cotf.

That said I think that there may be some truth in the suggestion that those men who have actively allied themselves with the old races and identify more closely with them than with those who were once their fellow men, may have a big influence in what looks like a fight-back but ultimately its no more than influence and the children's magic.

Such choices make all the difference. Call me a dreamer, but I think the children's magic will prove pivotal in a way that benefits FM. They are bound together by the Pact. The Andals may have no regard for it, or them, but that has not changed the attitudes of FM and cotf.

[Voice]

Well I suppose there is the simple answer that they were too badly "damaged" in their last fight to actually make it back. A dead man with one leg isn't going to get far.

That said, it conjures the image of the last of Benjen's men finally making it back to Castle Black in the epilogue to Dream of Spring, his knees, elbows and clothing worn away to the bones and beyond after crawling hundreds of miles through the forest long after the crows eat anything worth chewing :devil:

Yes it does, but not exactly what I wanted to hear LOL

Thanks for that BC.

[Black Crow]

And who are they "dealing with" now?

I completely agree. But the North Remembers. While the South has gone to hell in a handbasket, the North has remained true to the Pact, a friend to the Watch, and still teaches their kids to respect and revere the cotf.

I'm not sure that they are "dealing" with anybody, but I disagree that the North [below the Wall] has remained true to the Pact. There are no children and rather then being taught to respect and revere the children of the forest, the children of men are taught that they are all dead and gone.

[Sly Wren]

I see Benjen (not Howland) enlightening Jon as to his parentage, so I'd like to see him return near the end of the series. GRRM likes to crush our hopes though, so I picked up on these parallels and brought them up here in the hopes that they were wrong. But I fear they are not.

That would be emotionally satisfying--and not just because I like Benjen's character (and the actor who plays him on the "mummer's" version, if I'm being honest)--but I can't see how Martin's given enough evidence one way or the other. Benjen's fallen off a narrative cliff. Am also hoping he climbs back up somehow.

[Voice]

I'm not sure that they are "dealing" with anybody, but I disagree that the North [below the Wall] has remained true to the Pact. There are no children and rather then being taught to respect and revere the children of the forest, the children of men are taught that they are all dead and gone.

They're dealing with Brynden Rivers and Bran, both of whom are descended from FM.

In what way has the North dishonored the Pact?

While the grey mice might spread lies of singer-extinction, Old Nan does not. Nor did Eddard Stark.

Bran's father sat solemnly on his horse, long brown hair stirring in the wind. His closely trimmed beard was shot with white, making him look older than his thirty-five years. He had a grim cast to his grey eyes this day, and he seemed not at all the man who would sit before the fire in the evening and talk softly of the age of heroes and the children of the forest. He had taken off Father's face, Bran thought, and donned the face of Lord Stark of Winterfell.

[Voice]

That would be emotionally satisfying--and not just because I like Benjen's character (and the actor who plays him on the "mummer's" version, if I'm being honest)--but I can't see how Martin's given enough evidence one way or the other. Benjen's fallen off a narrative cliff. Am also hoping he climbs back up somehow.

His absence is noted quite regularly by Jon, in every book save Feast. He's another of Checkov's guns at this point.

[Sly Wren]

His absence is noted quite regularly by Jon, in every book save Feast. He's another of Checkov's guns at this point.

Yes--only meant a very notable absence (a present absence, if I wanted to reference Derrida). And am very much hoping he is a gun vs. just a memory. Would work much better than the alternative.

[wolfmaid7]

Just to revert briefly to the matter of the children vis a vis men, I still think that my Native American parallel is accurate. Whilst we have that list of friendly encounters the big thing that's missing from the argument is that we're now a few thousand years down the line and in a very different Westeros. What's different is the Andals and their slaughtering of the children and burning of weirwoods. No matter how many men were allied to the children long ago far more turned against them and in the world now the children are facing extinction because men are the enemy.

This is true and ultimately for me anyway my point of reference is at the point the Others invaded. The COTF on a whole offered no help except to one man who came in search of them.Now after that years after we get that men went back to doing what they do best,warring with each other.Any help by the COTF was not a united front.There were clans that worked with some humans and maybe some that didn't.Which was the point of saying we can't treat them as a homogenous group especially during and after the pact. Did "all" the Children and all the Greenseers agree to this? I think not.

Rather depends on how you define "control" of course: I don't think that Bran is being controlled but I do think that he has been invited, tempted and manipulated into his present position. However I do agree that he still has choices and however constrained a degree of freedom of action. In the synopsis transcribed above GRRM writes of how Bran will be drawn to magic first in attempt to be able to walk again and then for its own sake, which I suggest is exactly what we've seen. However in the latter part, relating to the Winds of Winter there's that business of maester and greenseer working together to save the world and I don't see that as a general alliance, but as Bran re-asserting himself and his identity and choosing to fight for the world of men

Agree with this also.

FROM WOLMAID ABOVE: Posted Yesterday, 10:54 PM (sorry--I messed up my edit and was too lazy to retry--not a great way to start my argument)

"I also agree that man and his ways had a lot to do with it.They breed, war indiscrimantly,consume the natural resources with no regards to what they met there.I believe Westeros goes through an extinction cycle as a way to reset and this happens to be one of those cycles.Alot of people are going to die and i think only a remnant would remain.This society has reached that point where the switch needs to be flipped."

I was thinking about this in terms of Valyria as well,they had an extinction event and i won't be suprise if after 400yrs of having no socery or human abuse of such its probably recovered a bit. As long as people are freaked out about going there,or maybe there's a small group of people that settled there. :dunno: "

MY POINT: This may be wishful thinking, but I had been working under the assumption that the Doom of Valyria was a warning for this current story--watch out for your extreme behavior (on multiple counts). That if nothing is done, this could repeat itself in an icy way.

I'm not trying to Pollyanna my way out of this--but I did think this is why the Children have "prepared" Bran and brought him to Bloodraven--to avoid another extinction. That if a balance can be struck/restored, then the reset wouldn't require extinction this time around.

In short, I don't yet take it as a given that extinction is the only reset. Rather, that if a reset of balance isn't found, extinction will happen. This may be wishful thinking--I don't want certain characters to die and complete cataclysm never seems like a good storyline to me. But If extinction is the only option, why are the Children and Bloodraven working so hard to get Bran?

I don't think it will be total cataclysm at all, it seems a "tare and wheat growing together till the harvest." By the end of this a whole lot of people are going to die.The last LongNight most of the population were wighted.So much so parts of the land were called Barren and dead.So i think its heading there again where a great number of the population will die.The problem with last time is after the reset and that was a reset,humans went back to doing what they always did.Fighting for power,land etc.This is the pivitol point that would determine how the world would continue on.

Indeed and its worth remembering just how central to this story the question of identity really is, and therein ultimately may be the biggest argument against R+L=J being as significant as some like to proclaim. Its primarily a story about the Stark children, their diaspora and in the end the reaffirmation of their identity as children of Winterfell. Bran, crippled and vulnerable is drawn to magic and the dark side; Arya, cut adrift is fighting against becoming no-one; Sansa, having rejected her family and betrayed her father is finding her way back to Winterfell [and perhaps to Jon] while Jon Snow the bastard is also at bottom a son of Winterfell and it is his affirmation of that rather than the chimera of the Iron Throne which will in the end define him.

I so love this.I'm still not sure about the Sansa/Jon part but i can see it happening if i thought Jon would end up in Winterfell.

My thinking on why the CotF didn't intervene before the Last Hero is this: They were honoring the pact still. The Others are fundamentally men and thus the COtF agreed not to fight them in the pact. Along comes the Last Hero and convinces them that these are no men at all but something other.

Also shout out to wolfmaid and Voice! i am sorry I abandoned our last argument (~4 weeks ago) so abruptly - it was some good stuff. But I had to take a leave of absence from asoiaf.

I don't know ArmStark.I'm leading that they did intervene at the point where he would die so as to elicit his service.By service i mean the winter Greenseer and the only reason the armies of the dead "fled" (i wonder how a wight would look running?) is because he madethem leave.

I'm not saying it isn't somewhat accurate. I'm saying the text brings us tales of collaboration, rather than conflict, after the Pact.

And while some tribes did indeed resist westward expansion, others didn't. It seems that in the case of this fictional universe, not one group of singers raised protest once the terms of the Pact were broken. In this way, they are clearly not like the Sioux or Cheyenne. So the parallel only takes us so far. It fails to accurately explain FM-Singer relations after the Pact.

Or does it?

Bran VII AGOT

"But some twelve thousand years ago, the First Men appeared from the east, crossing the Broken Arm of Dorne before it was broken. They came with bronze swords and great leathern shields, riding horses. No horse had ever been seen on this side of the narrow sea. No doubt the children were as frightened by the horses as the First Men were by the faces in the trees. As the First Men carved out holdfasts and farms, they cut down the faces and gave them to the fire. Horror-struck, the children went to war. The old songs say that the greenseers used dark magics to make the seas rise and sweep away the land, shattering the Arm, but it was too late to close the door. The wars went on until the earth ran red with blood of men and children both, but more children than men, for men were bigger and stronger, and wood and stone and obsidian make a poor match for bronze. Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.

"There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces.

"The Pact began four thousand years of friendship between men and children. In time, the First Men even put aside the gods they had brought with them, and took up the worship of the secret gods of the wood. The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and began the Age of Heroes."

Bran's fist curled around the shiny black arrowhead. "But the children of the forest are all gone now, you said."

"Here, they are," said Osha, as she bit off the end of the last bandage with her teeth. "North of the Wall, things are different. That's where the children went, and the giants, and the other old races."

Maester Luwin sighed. "Woman, by rights you ought to be dead or in chains. The Starks have treated you more gently than you deserve. It is unkind to repay them for their kindness by filling the boys' heads with folly."

"Tell me where they went," Bran said. "I want to know."

"Me too," Rickon echoed.

"Oh, very well," Luwin muttered. "So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea.

"The Andals were the first, a race of tall, fair-haired warriors who came with steel and fire and the seven-pointed star of the new gods painted on their chests. The wars lasted hundreds of years, but in the end the six southron kingdoms all fell before them. Only here, where the King in the North threw back every army that tried to cross the Neck, did the rule of the First Men endure. The Andals burnt out the weirwood groves, hacked down the faces, slaughtered the children where they found them, and everywhere proclaimed the triumph of the Seven over the old gods. So the children fled north—"

Summer began to howl.

Maester Luwin broke off, startled. When Shaggydog bounded to his feet and added his voice to his brother's, dread clutched at Bran's heart. "It's coming," he whispered, with the certainty of despair. He had known it since last night, he realized, since the crow had led him down into the crypts to say farewell. He had known it, but he had not believed. He had wanted Maester Luwin to be right. The crow, he thought, the three-eyed crow . . .

Once again, an interruption distracts a storyteller. Don't you love that? There are a couple of different interwoven threads to consider in this particular narrative.

First, I think the cotf were first and foremost concerned with protecting their sacred weirwoods. This motivation overcame their desire to fight the colonizing wave of First Men. And this, more than anything else, was their purpose at the Isle of Faces. Their needs are different than Men, and this must be remembered. Unlike Native Americans, the cotf did not farm the soil. And, unlike Native Americans, cotf held trees to be more important than their own society. Now, I know people like to idealize and romanticize Native Americans, but the main reason for resistance during the colonization of the Americas is because natives were protecting their People, not their Habitat. The motivations of the cotf are very non-Man-like. The motivations of Native Americans are very human. Custer wasn't killed because the Lakota were protecting a sacred tree, he was killed because he had no legal right to bring armed forces into Sioux territory (even according to American law).

Once the Pact was forged, rather than force the bible upon the cotf, or abduct their children and imprison them in boarding schools, the First Men adopted the Old Gods as their own, and stopped cutting down weirwoods. This is quite the opposite of colonization in the United States. But, what's interesting, there are some real life parallels. Oral History, archaeological data, and genetic research have all corroborated accounts of Viking settlements in the New World that predate Columbus by hundreds of years. These are mainly in Canada. Rather than seek to exterminate the indigenous population, Nordic peoples sought commerce. And, being pagan themselves, one can imagine the relations being quite amicable (the genetic research seems to support this as well LOL). Really cool article here.

Even the French colonization of Canada, after Columbus, was far more amicable than the Spanish and British colonization of what is now the US. And, many Métis communities can be found there. Here, in the US, American bravado and a corrupted brand of Christianity narrowed minds to the extent that native populations were seen as savage beasts, rather than fellow human beings. Their attitude is mirrored in the text by the Andal Invasion.

This brings me to my point. After the Pact, First Men took up worship of the secret gods of the wood. The Old Gods. This worship would likely have forbidden the sorts of infighting you have been suggesting. The First Men went native. They adopted the indigenous religion, and by the time the Andals arrived, they were more like the cotf than they were the Andals, religiously speaking. As time wore on, the Andals and their holy book were thumping the heads of children and FM alike.

I think a case could even be made that First Men never broke the Pact. This is why the cotf continued to fight alongside FM during the Andal Invasion. And, why they are now giving aid to Bran Stark today.

Now, you can mistrust them. That is certainly the Andal way. But so far, the text has not born out the nefarious motives you have suggested.

Yeah Voice but the collaboration of which your are speaking was not a united one which was my point. Clans of Children partnered with "some" men to achieve some mutual goal.This the WB shows us and the main text hints at.We are not even sure if the Pact was something all COTF agreed to.Just the same not all Native tribes resigned themselves to fight for the Brits,the colonies or chose to fight with either or.Some even stayed the heck out of it and chose to heaf deeper into the hills.

The problem that GRRM also addresses in the series if man's propensity to put people under one label,its been done over and over with the Wildlings as well.So yes we have crossing of cultures where "some" not all the FM and Children worked together.

[wolfmaid7]

They're dealing with Brynden Rivers and Bran, both of whom are descended from FM.

In what way has the North dishonored the Pact?

While the grey mice might spread lies of singer-extinction, Old Nan does not. Nor did Eddard Stark.

Bran's father sat solemnly on his horse, long brown hair stirring in the wind. His closely trimmed beard was shot with white, making him look older than his thirty-five years. He had a grim cast to his grey eyes this day, and he seemed not at all the man who would sit before the fire in the evening and talk softly of the age of heroes and the children of the forest. He had taken off Father's face, Bran thought, and donned the face of Lord Stark of Winterfell.

Well actually they are not dealing with anybody.If you deny the existence of a thing you can't deal with it. No,no one south of the Wall knows the COTF and Greenseers are still operational.We know that thanks to Bran,but nobody else knows and you know nobody will probably ever know.Or atlease Bran's story may never be told and if it is it will be a tale.

This is a story to Eddard he told Cat this when they were under the Weirwood tree

The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has ever seen one." Eddard to Cat

He didn't even believe they were around.The Greenseers and the Children are operating in secret while at the same time luring people of the right blood when its time to make a change.

Just another diappearence along a whole host of disappearances.

I mean look who the WB labled as enemies:The tiny beautiful Children are not mentioned.

"Though the black brothers of the Wall still guard the realms of men nobly as they may the threats no longer come from Others,wights,giants,greenseers,wargs skinchangers and other monsters from childrens tales and legend....WB pg 145

A little side note: Others is the only one captialized and its not at the begining of the sentence.

Edit: I will note Osha's statement :

"North of the Wall, things are different. That's where the Children went, and the giants, and the other old races"......... Mance thinks he'll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers, but what does he know? He can call himself King-beyond-the-Wall all he likes, but he's still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower.(A Game of Thrones, Ch. 66).

So we don't know what's really going on up there.What sought of alliances there might or might not be.