Why Shireen has to burn [Book Spoilers]

[hallam]

Lots of people are asking why Shireen has to be burned when just a leech full of blood is enough to kill someone.

I do not see a plot hole here at all. The starting point is that Stannis has to be seen to defeat the Boltons. He can't just kill them with magic. So he has to attack Winterfell with his army. He can't rely on a leech or a shadowbaby. He needs Mel to change the weather long enough to let the army get to Winterfell. That is a much bigger task and she needs a lot more power.

That at least seems reasonable to me. And it looks like the books are headed in the same direction.

[Connartist92]

I agree, but Stannis also can't make another shadow baby because it could kill him. And I don't think he will be okay with Shireen burning, I think Melisandre and Selyse are going to do it without his say-so.

[Tyrion's Third Wife]

I agree, but Stannis also can't make another shadow baby because it could kill him. And I don't think he will be okay with Shireen burning, I think Melisandre and Selyse are going to do it without his say-so.

^^ This.

[Astromech]

Just a brainstorm, but wouldn't it be interesting if they tried burning Shireen and discovered she was impervious/immune to fire/heat due to the grayscale? The stonemen could serve as anti-dragon shock troops.

[SayGen]

Just a brainstorm, but wouldn't it be interesting if they tried burning Shireen and discovered she was impervious/immune to fire/heat due to the grayscale? The stonemen could serve as anti-dragon shock troops.

Sadly she doesn't have grayscale anymore--only the scar--would she burn all but one small section of her cheek?

Interesting thought though.

[RedRonnet]

What's really interesting is that everyone thinks that Shireen will burn, but I think the bigger scope of what's at hand is just how truly convicted is Stannis to the idea of him doing whatever it takes to assume the throne, or if it is even worth saving. Remember, Stannis and Davos argued about burning Gentry and Stannis assumed the position that one life is not worth more than all the lives of Westeros.

Stannis is fucked. He's either a kinslayer or a hypocrite. Both options are nearly impossible for him to comprehend.

The likely answer will be to burn Selyse because she's of noble birth...


Just sayin'

[Minuteman]

Burning the leeches didn't actually cause anything to happen. Robb Stark was killed by the Boltons for ambition and the Freys for vengeance. Joffrey was killed by Olenna to prevent him from abusing Margaery. Balon was killed by a Faceless Man hired by Euron so that he could usurp the Seastone Chair. Mel saw these things in the flames and took credit for them. R'hllor didn't cause the three kings to be killed other people who had cause to murder them did so. Shadowbabies come from sex though it seems that the man must be chosen (Stannis but Mel also offers herself to Davos for that purpose).

Burning someone seems to cause a general favorable event (for example burning Axel Florent gave them good - and hot - wind to sail from Dragonstone to the Wall). Basically burning Shireen would possibly make it stop snowing. Not really something he would be willing to part with his only child and heir for.

[Stonehearted Snake]

Burning the leeches didn't actually cause anything to happen. Robb Stark was killed by the Boltons for ambition and the Freys for vengeance. Joffrey was killed by Olenna to prevent him from abusing Margaery. Balon was killed by a Faceless Man hired by Euron so that he could usurp the Seastone Chair. Mel saw these things in the flames and took credit for them. R'hllor didn't cause the three kings to be killed other people who had cause to murder them did so. Shadowbabies come from sex though it seems that the man must be chosen (Stannis but Mel also offers herself to Davos for that purpose).

Burning someone seems to cause a general favorable event (for example burning Axel Florent gave them good - and hot - wind to sail from Dragonstone to the Wall). Basically burning Shireen would possibly make it stop snowing. Not really something he would be willing to part with his only child and heir for.

Word. ITA the leeches did jack, Mel saw it in her flames and took advantage of that knowledge. We all know how sneaky she is.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The only way for Shireen "having" to burn is that it would make good tv. :dunno:

In the show, putting aside inconsistencies or such, it has been set up that not only Stannis does worry about his wife's sake (as a sense of duty) but also that Selyse is dying for his attention and approval. Stannis wouldn't kill Selyse as much as she would jump into the fire if she believes that would help his cause.

[Modesty Lannister]

The only way for Shireen "having" to burn is that it would make good tv. :dunno:

In the show, putting aside inconsistencies or such, it has been set up that not only Stannis does worry about his wife's sake (as a sense of duty) but also that Selyse is dying for his attention and approval. Stannis wouldn't kill Selyse as much as she would jump into the fire if she believes that would help his cause.

I agree, but from what we saw in the season trailer, I'd say that the most likely scenario is for Melisandre and Selyse to try to burn Shireen and Stannis not only stops them, but leaves them (or Selyse) behind in the snow. We saw Selyse on her hands and knees in the snow surrounded by menacing looking knights.

As a character, Stannis has no reason for burning his daughter. He is a believer in blood and true blood lines. Shireen is his sole heir and the sole heir of house Baratheon unless one of Robert's bastards is legitimized. What would the IT serve Stannis for if he had no heirs to pass it onto? And Stannis is aware of that.

Personally, I'd like him to burn that witch from Asshai posing as a red priestess, but it's too early for that. Or is it?

[clawson24]

What's really interesting is that everyone thinks that Shireen will burn, but I think the bigger scope of what's at hand is just how truly convicted is Stannis to the idea of him doing whatever it takes to assume the throne, or if it is even worth saving. Remember, Stannis and Davos argued about burning Gentry and Stannis assumed the position that one life is not worth more than all the lives of Westeros.

Stannis is fucked. He's either a kinslayer or a hypocrite. Both options are nearly impossible for him to comprehend.

The likely answer will be to burn Selyse because she's of noble birth...

Just sayin'

Well one of the points of Davos as a character is to serve as the "angel" on Stannis' shoulder to an extent. While Stannis did question whether one boy's life was worth the lives of the masses at that moment, it's fully possible that his experiences have changed his perspective.

[Stag_legion]

In the books it appears that stannis is relying of melisandre less and less as the story goes on. The more he accomplishes without her aid the less he listens to her. one reason why he didn't take her on his march to winterfell. And if he does succeed in taking winterfell he ll be sure to sideline her even more since he then has to deal with northern lords who wouldn't look kindly on melisandre being heavily involved in decision making.

Even on the show, stannis seems a bit more skeptical about melisandre this season. So he might send her away if she annoys him anymore.

[Drogonthedread]

In the books it appears that stannis is relying of melisandre less and less as the story goes on. The more he accomplishes without her aid the less he listens to her. one reason why he didn't take her on his march to winterfell. And if he does succeed in taking winterfell he ll be sure to sideline her even more since he then has to deal with northern lords who wouldn't look kindly on melisandre being heavily involved in decision making.

Even on the show, stannis seems a bit more skeptical about melisandre this season. So he might send her away if she annoys him anymore.

if i remember correctly Mel was the one who chose not to go with stannis because her power is strong at the Wall

[voodooqueen126]

If Axel Florent being burnt alive could change the weather, then wouldn't any random (or Selyse) be sufficient to stop a snow storm?

[Mithras]

Shireen does not have to burn. This whole thing does not make sense and is poorly handled. Mel does not promise certain results and even so, the sacrifice of Shireen must yield something like a game changer. Even if the storm is lifted, Stannis still has a bitter fighting to take Winterfell. And bad weather will keep coming all the same. The bloody winter has finally come. Besides, taking Winterfell will not make Stannis the king. Far from it.

[VladimirDulud]

Lots of people are asking why Shireen has to be burned when just a leech full of blood is enough to kill someone.

I do not see a plot hole here at all. The starting point is that Stannis has to be seen to defeat the Boltons. He can't just kill them with magic. So he has to attack Winterfell with his army. He can't rely on a leech or a shadowbaby. He needs Mel to change the weather long enough to let the army get to Winterfell. That is a much bigger task and she needs a lot more power.

That at least seems reasonable to me. And it looks like the books are headed in the same direction.

Stannis will burn Melisandre instead.

That's probably related to the shot of the devastated Selyse on the ground in the trailers.

He decides to completely forego the red priestess and her acolytes against all the wishes

of the red god.

He will not burn Shireen.

[God-Emperor of Yi Ti]

I agree, but from what we saw in the season trailer, I'd say that the most likely scenario is for Melisandre and Selyse to try to burn Shireen and Stannis not only stops them, but leaves them (or Selyse) behind in the snow. We saw Selyse on her hands and knees in the snow surrounded by menacing looking knights.

As a character, Stannis has no reason for burning his daughter. He is a believer in blood and true blood lines. Shireen is his sole heir and the sole heir of house Baratheon unless one of Robert's bastards is legitimized. What would the IT serve Stannis for if he had no heirs to pass it onto? And Stannis is aware of that.

Personally, I'd like him to burn that witch from Asshai posing as a red priestess, but it's too early for that. Or is it?

yep whatever is going on to upset Selyse in the trailer seems unlikely to be bad for Shireen...

[Minuteman]

Shireen does not have to burn. This whole thing does not make sense and is poorly handled. Mel does not promise certain results and even so, the sacrifice of Shireen must yield something like a game changer. Even if the storm is lifted, Stannis still has a bitter fighting to take Winterfell. And bad weather will keep coming all the same. The bloody winter has finally come. Besides, taking Winterfell will not make Stannis the king. Far from it.

As I recall the purpose behind burning someone with king's blood is to wake a dragon from stone. Stannis could certainly use a dragon but the question he would have to answer is what would he want more, Shireen or a dragon? The Stannis from the book and the show (with the scene from episode 5) would choose Shireen without thought or hesitation. He is a skilled commander and has an army so victory in the field is well within reach. He would like a dragon to be sure but he needs an heir. He also seems genuinely fond of her.

[stannisismyking]

In the books it appears that stannis is relying of melisandre less and less as the story goes on. The more he accomplishes without her aid the less he listens to her. one reason why he didn't take her on his march to winterfell. And if he does succeed in taking winterfell he ll be sure to sideline her even more since he then has to deal with northern lords who wouldn't look kindly on melisandre being heavily involved in decision making.

Even on the show, stannis seems a bit more skeptical about melisandre this season. So he might send her away if she annoys him anymore.

Mel chose to stay behind in the books IIRC... sayang her powers were stronger at the Wall

eta: ninja'd (guess I should read threads in full!)

[Juan_Snow]

I will also add that speculation of Shireen burning is not just a show thing. There has been talk for years now that Mel is going to burn her in the books as well. I think in both show and books Stannis has made it perfectly clear he's against it. If it happens it's all Mel and Selyse.