Did Rhaenyra's three eldest sons actually look Targaryen?

[cocoalover1956]

I've always had a hard time with the idea that Rhaenrya's three eldest sons had brown hair, brown eyes, and plain features, thus meaning they're really Harwin Strong's bastards. We're never actually told what Harwin Strong or any of his relatives look like. The Princess and the Queen and The Rouge Prince are in-universe accounts, so they're vulnerable to historical inaccuracies. That in itself isn't a mystery, since Gyldayn outright says he doesn't know everything. There are some inconsistencies that make me doubt those kids looked the way he described them.

Look at how people react to these kids.

Viserys I adored them. Anyone who called them bastards lost a tongue - except Vaemond Velaryon, who lost his life to Dark Sister. On one hand, it could be that he was so blinded by his love of Rhaenyra that he let her get away with adultery, but remember that he sent Daemon because of rumors that they were sleeping together. But he never did anything to Harwin, in all the years people were claiming he was Rhaenyra's lover? And even if Viserys caused the Harrenhal fire, why wait until Harwin already impregnated her three times?

Corlys and Rhaenys Velaryon were Rhaenyra's biggest supporters, which makes no sense if her Velaryon boys were clearly not Laenor's. It's their son she's allegedly cheating on; their house's honor she's tainting; their line of succession she's messing up. Corlys worked well with Jace and considered Luke his heir. Rhaenys died defending Rhaenrya's rights, and by extension the boys'. Laena was Rhaenyra's best friend. No one had issue with the Jace and Luke being betrothed to Rhaena and Baela; while Daemon, as their father, had all the control over their marriages, the Velaryons had could have said something but didn't.

And Rhaenyra's allies fought for them too. Lady Arryn, Lord Manderly, and Lord Stark saw Jace with their own eyes and raised their banners to support his mother. I doubt they did this solely because of Vermax. One, they already know that half-Targaryens can ride dragons. Two, there's no way Jace is going to attack them because the Blacks can't afford to make enemies; even staying neutral is better for Rhaenyra than them going to the Greens in retribution, and they now this.

I will concede that Jeyne Arryn had greater motive to support Rhaenerya regardless of her children's legitimacy. Rhaenyra's her cousin (her personal coat-of-arms even has the Arryn sigil on it), and she needs to support the right of women to inherit or she might lose her ladyship over the Vale. Though, she also doesn't like Daemon; so that's something to consider.

(Rhaenyra had other allies, but their motives are little harder to dissect.)

Now look at the people accusing them of being bastards: the Greens and Vaemond Velaryon. They all stand to gain a lot from Rhaenyra's children being declared bastards and knocked out of the lines of succession.

What's interesting is that Daemon has motive to call them bastards as well (at least before he married Rhaenyra) but he never said a word against the boys. In fact he seemed to like them despite the fact that they displaced his own sons, Aegon III and Viserys II. Yes, his daughters were suppose to marry Jace and Luke, but before he had daughters he never pulled the "Strong bastards" card. Did he have the foresight to know that he'd marry Rhaenyra and try to marry his kids to hers? Probably not. He fully expected a son by Laena.

Back to what I said about Gyldayn in the second paragraph. He doesn't know everything; he could be wrong about anything. And he does show slight bias toward the greens (understandable considering he was raised in Oldtown). He's not a primary source, but he's basing his historical account of the works of Septon Eustace, Mushroom the Fool, and singers tales. Please recall that singers spread misinformation based on what makes a better story.

(Side note: He goes out of his way to tell us all about the gossip about Rhaenrya's sex life, which at times are utterly ridiculous. Why did we need to know all that? So we'd be persuaded to believe that Rhaenyra was promiscuous? Why is he repeating "Strong bastards" ad nauseam? We got it the first time.)

Maybe Rhaenyra's three eldest sons were bastards, Harwin's, or Daemon's, or even Criston's. Targaryen genetics are little strange and the people of Westeros don't fully understand how they work anyway. If Rhaenyra's kids are known to look Targaryen, they could be anyone's, they could be Laenor's (lack of sexual attraction doesn't mean he can't have sex with his wife). But if they don't look Targaryen there's a high chance (I say chance because, again, genetics are strange) that they're bastards, and to the people Westeros would see it as a certainty. It does not make sense for the proud, old Sea Snake to pick up a brown-haired brown-eyed baby and say "Yup, this is definitely my grandson."

I'm not saying that we can't trust anything Gyldayn writes, but I believe Martin expects better of his readers than to take everything in as gospel truth.

[SeanF]

One can't ever be certain.

My view is that Laenor did not want sexual relations with Rhaenyra. But, he did agree to acknowledge her children as his.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I think that it was mentioned that they had Strong's coloring. However I believe that they had their Arryngrandfather's coloring.

[BitsOfBrains]

I think its all but confirmed that they were Strong bastards. They had "common" features and anyone who wasn't her active supporter recognized they were bastards.

Even before the succession struggle as kids Aegons comment on the Strong/Rivers boys was, "Everyone knows. Just look at them." and if you read those prequels you know he didn't want to be king and had no designs on the crown until those around him clued him into the fact that Rhaenyra and Daemon would put all his siblings to death.

As to why Jahaerys didn't care that they were bastards is simple biology. I could link a study that shows that the mothers family almost inevitably says newborn children look like the father as a hardwired mechanism to put any thoughts of paternity fraud to rest.

Also consider the fact that even though they were bastards they were no less Jahaerys grandsons.

Plus the iron throne cutting Rhaenyra all but confirms her as not a fit ruler is another clue though her sons bastardy might not be the main reason for her rejection by the throne.

[Anath]

I think that it was mentioned that they had Strong's coloring. However I believe that they had their Arryngrandfather's coloring.

No, it was mentioned that they looked common. At one time, I paid particular attention to find any claim that they were "Strong" looking and found none.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

No, it was mentioned that they looked common. At one time, I paid particular attention to find any claim that they were "Strong" looking and found none.

How do we know that the Arryn grandfather didn't looked common?

[Anath]

How do we know that the Arryn grandfather didn't looked common?

We don't. That's what I'm saying. Even Alicent restricted herself to barbs like, "Keep trying, one day you'll get one who looks like you".

[cocoalover1956]

I think its all but confirmed that they were Strong bastards. They had "common" features and anyone who wasn't her active supporter recognized they were bastards.

Even before the succession struggle as kids Aegons comment on the Strong/Rivers boys was, "Everyone knows. Just look at them." and if you read those prequels you know he didn't want to be king and had no designs on the crown until those around him clued him into the fact that Rhaenyra and Daemon would put all his siblings to death.

As to why Jahaerys didn't care that they were bastards is simple biology. I could link a study that shows that the mothers family almost inevitably says newborn children look like the father as a hardwired mechanism to put any thoughts of paternity fraud to rest.

Also consider the fact that even though they were bastards they were no less Jahaerys grandsons.

Plus the iron throne cutting Rhaenyra all but confirms her as not a fit ruler is another clue though her sons bastardy might not be the main reason for her rejection by the throne.

I'm arguing that they didn't actually have common features, that the brown hair and eyes were a falsehood.

I doubt the morning of his father's death was the first time Aegon heard that Rhaenyra might kill him and his family. Alicent had been turning all her children from their half-sister for years.

Maybe the mother's family are hardwired to think the baby looks like the father, but even Viserys isn't thick enough to believe his white-haired, purple-eyed daughter and white-haired, purple-eyed son-in-law had three brown-haired, brown-eyed babies. Jace alone should have been the nail in the coffin. Yes, he would have loved them simply for being his grandsons, but claiming them as his heirs is another matter.

The Iron Throne cut her while she was in full armor? Sounds like propaganda to me.

[Veltigar]

I think its all but confirmed that they were Strong bastards. They had "common" features and anyone who wasn't her active supporter recognized they were bastards.

Even before the succession struggle as kids Aegons comment on the Strong/Rivers boys was, "Everyone knows. Just look at them." and if you read those prequels you know he didn't want to be king and had no designs on the crown until those around him clued him into the fact that Rhaenyra and Daemon would put all his siblings to death.

:lol: If you're naive enough to believe that, I have a piece of prime real estate on the moon I would like to sell you. A real bargain :p

[BitsOfBrains]

We don't. That's what I'm saying. Even Alicent restricted herself to barbs like, "Keep trying, one day you'll get one who looks like you".

Come on. We know how genetics work in the worldsteros.

Two Valyrian parents don't produce THREE "common" looking sons.

Also Aemond said they were "strong".

The narrator specifically uses synonyms for the word "strong" to describe them. Words like "lusty, muscular, likely, daring, etc." yet I believe he specifically refrains from using the word "strong" to describe them and I think that says a lot.

If you chose to believe that Rhaenyras sons weren't bastards thats fine, its fiction and you are the reader. Just realize you are doing so despite the author basically telling you (or at least expecting you to realize) they are in fact bastards.

[BitsOfBrains]

:lol: If you're naive enough to believe that, I have a piece of prime real estate on the moon I would like to sell you. A real bargain :P

Yeah maybe. I am just going by the text. It specifically says Aegon was like, "no I don't want to be king" but finally accepted once they told him they would kill his siblings.

I guess you would have to believe the narrator is a liar in which case the whole story means nothing and nothing from it can be taken at its word.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

We don't. That's what I'm saying. Even Alicent restricted herself to barbs like, "Keep trying, one day you'll get one who looks like you".

I don't understand. You mean that she said that? Hellicent always tried to make Viserys disinherit Rhaenyra so I don't find it difficult to understand why she would say something like that.

[Veltigar]

Yeah maybe. I am just going by the text. It specifically says Aegon was like, "no I don't want to be king" but finally accepted once they told him they would kill his siblings.

I guess you would have to believe the narrator is a liar in which case the whole story means nothing and nothing from it can be taken at its word.

If you go by the text, you would understand that that statement of Aegon doesn't make one whiff of sense, since everything else in the story points to him actively wanting to become King and hating Rhaenyra. This is just a case of Yandel selecting the most pro-Green propagandist take on the matter to put in the history book.

And I don't believe the narrator is necessarily a liar, he's just extremely biased here and not very good at working with his sources all in all.

[cocoalover1956]

Come on. We know how genetics work in the worldsteros.

Two Valyrian parents don't produce THREE "common" looking sons.

Also Aemond said they were "strong".

The narrator specifically uses synonyms for the word "strong" to describe them. Words like "lusty, muscular, likely, daring, etc." yet I believe he specifically refrains from using the word "strong" to describe them and I think that says a lot.

If you chose to believe that Rhaenyras sons weren't bastards thats fine, its fiction and you are the reader. Just realize you are doing so despite the author basically telling you (or at least expecting you to realize) they are in fact bastards.

You're missing the whole point of this thread. I'm saying that Jace, Luke, and Joff didn't look common, that they had silver hair and purple eyes like their mom. The account of them about having brown hair and brown eyes was slander propagated by the greens after they died.

[Anath]

I don't understand. You mean that she said that? Hellicent always tried to make Viserys disinherit Rhaenyra so I don't find it difficult to understand why she would say something like that.

Even she didn't dare to say, "Hey, they don't look like you, they look like Strong!" No one ever said explicitly that they looked like Harwyn Strong. Even Hellicent knew better than say it. Despite jer nest efforts, Viserys wasn't budging on the succession and she'd only invite trouble upon herself id she claimed that they looked like any specific man who was not Laenor.

Which leaves us with the common look or the false propaganda if the OP's theory is correct. No one ever said, "They look like Ser Harwin".

[BitsOfBrains]

If you go by the text, you would understand that that statement of Aegon doesn't make one whiff of sense, since everything else in the story points to him actively wanting to become King and hating Rhaenyra. This is just a case of Yandel selecting the most pro-Green propagandist take on the matter to put in the history book.

And I don't believe the narrator is necessarily a liar, he's just extremely biased here and not very good at working with his sources all in all.

If the narrator wanted to be pro green why wouldn't he have just said straight up that they were bastards?

And why would he have favored the losing side? Wouldn't he have been more likely to support the winning side since they still have the power to harm him?

I always assumed that any unreliable narration would favor the blacks as history is written by the victors.

[cocoalover1956]

If the narrator wanted to be pro green why wouldn't he have just said straight up that they were bastards?

And why would he have favored the losing side? Wouldn't he have been more likely to support the winning side since they still have the power to harm him?

I always assumed that any unreliable narration would favor the blacks as history is written by the victors.

He's a maester, they're not suppose to take sides but they do subconsciously. He goes on and on about Rhaenyra's alleged promiscuity, Daemon's amorality, and the Velaryon's boys alleged bastardy. He expects us to believe that Rhaenyra got cut on the Iron Throne wearing armor, that she murdered Helaena (even though there would be nothing in it for her, and why kill her but not Alicent?). Yet he only touches the surface of anything that makes the greens look bad. "Rhaenyra did this, and that, and this, and seduced this guy, and slept with that guy, and sucked that other guy's dick, and visited brothels, etc. By the way Aegon and Aemond had mistresses."

And you have it the wrong way around. Officially the greens are the winning side. Yes they took major loses and Aegon III eventually took the throne, but Aegon II is considered the rightful king and Rhaenyra a usurper. The only reason her youngest sons sat the Iron Throne is because there were no other candidates.

[Veltigar]

If the narrator wanted to be pro green why wouldn't he have just said straight up that they were bastards?

And why would he have favored the losing side? Wouldn't he have been more likely to support the winning side since they still have the power to harm him?

I always assumed that any unreliable narration would favor the blacks as history is written by the victors.

The fact that Rhaenyra is not recognized as Queen, while Aegon II is recognized as legitimate should tell you that it really isn't as simple as the Blacks being totally victorious. Quite the opposite really, since the Blacks might have continued the line, but they lost pretty much everything else. Succesion now favours the Aegon's of this world, Rhaenyra is seen as never truly having been Queen, Aegon's major supporters haven't been punished (Hightowers and Baratheon's don't seem to have lost land and prestige, contrast that with the Blackfyre Rebellions and Robert's Rebellion), there hasn't been major repair payments to the Velaryons etc.

[Mithras]

The fact that one of them was named Joffrey should seal the deal.

[cocoalover1956]

The fact that one of them was named Joffrey should seal the deal.

Well it doesn't; not for me at least. I mean, I think names are significant, but its possible that Martin is using that symbolism in an ironic way. (one is accused of being a bastard, but is trueborn; one is believed to be trueborn, but is a bastard).