Does Tywin listen to his own advice?

[LionAndMockingbirdFan1895]

"Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you." – Tywin Lannister ^[1]

1. ↑ A Storm of Swords, Chapter 53, Tyrion VI.

If the Reynes had bent the knee to Tywin, would he have helped them back on their feet?

[Balerion the kitten]

Probably.

Although he would put in place severe penalties to show other houses that you don't want to mess with house Lannister

[Dofs]

He maybe would have left them alive at least.

[Victor227]

It's pretty crazy how the Reynes asked for a white peace and hostages rather than submit. I mean, they were beaten in the field and down to a siege. It's not like Tywin couldn't have just left some men at the door and gone off to do other things. What were they hoping for? The rest of the Westerlands to rise up because they're so popular? What with the 'breaking the peace and expanding their lands at the expense of their neighbors' thing, I can easily see everyone else turning a blind eye to their destruction, but Tywin turned it up to eleven and made a very effective example of them.

[BitsOfBrains]

He certainly is more of a "do as I say not as I do" kind of guy when it comes to whoring.

[Boarsbane]

It's pretty crazy how the Reynes asked for a white peace and hostages rather than submit. I mean, they were beaten in the field and down to a siege. It's not like Tywin couldn't have just left some men at the door and gone off to do other things. What were they hoping for? The rest of the Westerlands to rise up because they're so popular? What with the 'breaking the peace and expanding their lands at the expense of their neighbors' thing, I can easily see everyone else turning a blind eye to their destruction, but Tywin turned it up to eleven and made a very effective example of them.

I think they were hoping Tytos would call him off or that he'd accept favorable terms because Tytos would presumably call him off before they starved.

[Dofs]

I think they were hoping Tytos would call him off or that he'd accept favorable terms because Tytos would presumably call him off before they starved.

That's the only explanation I have. They were still very stupid if they believed like that. Tywin would be their lord eventually, anyway, and even before that, if Tywin managed to make that stunt with Tarbecks and them once, he would be able to do it again. And after what happened with Tarbecks, not many would want to join them when Tywin would decide to act against them again. And asking Tywin to give them his brothers? Why would Tywin under any circumstances do that? Reynes were completely out of their minds.

[John Suburbs]

"Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you." – Tywin Lannister ^[1]

1. ↑ A Storm of Swords, Chapter 53, Tyrion VI.

If the Reynes had bent the knee to Tywin, would he have helped them back on their feet?

Interesting question.

Judging by the account in the world book, it seems Tywin faced two choices at Castamere: either settle in for a long siege or flood the underground halls to kill everyone in the castle. He needed a quick victory, so he chose the latter, but if it had been a normal siege or if the Red Lion bent the knee after being defeated, would Tywin have spared him and restored his titles?

I'm thinking that given Tywin's inexperience with leadership, he probably would have executed Roger and Reynald, but he would not have exterminated the entire house.

I think this is the lesson he learned by the time he had the conversation with Joffrey: that utterly destroying rebel houses actually weakens your own house because it diminishes the number of your bannermen and by extension the size of the army you can muster.

[Sourjapes]

I think this is the lesson he learned by the time he had the conversation with Joffrey: that utterly destroying rebel houses actually weakens your own house because it diminishes the number of your bannermen and by extension the size of the army you can muster.

That doesn't make sense. The army is the peasantry and the landed knights and such. They didn't go anywhere. What happened was the officers were all fired but the Lannisters can just get new ones or pass the enlisted off to existing officers.

[Lion of the West]

"Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you." – Tywin Lannister ^[1]

1. ↑ A Storm of Swords, Chapter 53, Tyrion VI.

If the Reynes had bent the knee to Tywin, would he have helped them back on their feet?

I think they would have been destroyed anyway due to both their arrogance as well as Tytos Lannister. The longer Tywin waited the more of a chance that Tytos Lannisters would get into his head to "resolve" the matter peacefully and pardon the Reynes which would have created an open shism in House Lannister. And in fact I think that this was what the Reynes were counting on as well, that Tytos would come in to save their asses from his own son. Just like when he'd let them off the hook before.

[plectrum]

I've pondered this too, but I just assumed the Reynes never bent the knee.

[chrisdaw]

How did he treat those after Blackwater?

[plectrum]

How did he treat those after Blackwater?

Pardoned all willing to pledge fealty. Killed the rest.

[The Skinner]

Roger Reyne had a rep, he was probably counting on that and reynard's cunning to carry them a ways. However, no man can daunt Tywin Lannister(only his lady wife). People criticize Tywin for his brutality in the Reyne/Tarbeck uprising but Tywin was like as old as I am now, 19/20ish and had already faced the harsh reality of mideival warfare in addition to hearing people laugh at his father all his life while Roger Reyne, the biggest dick of them all, covers himself in glory in the stepstones and gets all this Lannister gold from his dad. It's no wonder he comes back with a chip on his shoulder: and because his father is so weak, Tywin suddenly has a lot of power for a 20 year old to have and then gets the chance to crush these assholes who have mocked his family for too long. I'm just saying, as an adolescent with a metric fuckton of power and gold, he was pretty responsible with it, he could have scoured the westerlands clean if he wanted.

[hallam]

Tywin is a hypocrite. That is well established. He organized arranged marriages for his children but married for love himself. He tells Tyrion not to take his whore to KL then steals her from him.

I think we will find that Tywin played a much bigger role in starting Roberts Rebellion than we have to date. I suspect he was the Littlefinger of his day.

[John Suburbs]

That doesn't make sense. The army is the peasantry and the landed knights and such. They didn't go anywhere. What happened was the officers were all fired but the Lannisters can just get new ones or pass the enlisted off to existing officers.

Castamere and Tarbeck Hall were razed and stood empty for 20-odd years, so he lost two noble houses and their seats, which ultimately weakened House Lannister when it came time to marshaling forces for Roberts Rebellion. I think that is the lesson he took away from this: confront rebellion and eliminate it, even kill traitors if they continue to defy you. But once they, or their sons who are now the new lords, bend the knee, raise them up again, albeit with loss of property and income. Otherwise, you'll have trouble getting anyone else to bend the knee.

[Lord Lannister]

Nah, the Reynes were doomed the moment they rebelled against the Lannisters. Tywin pretty much wanted the reputation boost of utterly crushing his enemies to make him that much more fearsome to future opponents and thus more likely to go to their knees in the first place.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Castamere and Tarbeck Hall were razed and stood empty for 20-odd years, so he lost two noble houses and their seats, which ultimately weakened House Lannister when it came time to marshaling forces for Roberts Rebellion.

Not really. The Tarbecks were not powerful until they started stealing land from other Lords and Knights. These domains would have most likely been returned to their previous owners rather than ceasing to exist altogether. All that was really lost and not replaced were the make Tarbecks.

At Castamere there was "three hundred men, women, and children in the mines", while no Lord was given Castamere afterwards the many landed knights who would have sworn fealty to the Reynes would have still existed, they would have just sworn fealty to someone else. My guess is that they were split between the Lannisters and their relatives the Marbrands and Presters (both of whom ruled quite close to Castamere).

With 20 years between this and Roberts Rebellion there was more than enough to replenish those lost forces.

Nah, the Reynes were doomed the moment they rebelled against the Lannisters. Tywin pretty much wanted the reputation boost of utterly crushing his enemies to make him that much more fearsome to future opponents and thus more likely to go to their knees in the first place.

Possibly not. Tywin offered terms to Ellyn Tarbeck, she instead refused and called on her brothers to help. Had she surrendered and Tywin got some concessions it might not have gotten any further.

[John Suburbs]

Sure, foot soldiers grow like weeds, but I'm talking more about the power vacuum that arose from the fall of both houses. Now Tywin (well, Tytos, actually) has to deal with the fact that all the lesser houses have no direct house over them to settle their petty grievances as they each seek to up their status, so it all winds up at CR. And no matter who he raises to take the Reynes' and Tarbeck's places just leads to resentment among the other houses, and more dissension. Plus, if the need to rally the bannermen were to arise suddenly, you have all these questions of authority and hierarchy to deal with, which ultimately saps your ability to command and organize.

Unrepentant rebels need to be dealt with in the harshest fashion, but noble houses offer more than just swords. They provide blood-ties and resources that contribute to the stability and prosperity of your realm and your house. They shouldn't be wiped out to the last babe simply because their top lords and ladies decide to rebel.

This is why I think Tywin was giving Joffrey some advice based on personal experience when he told him that, when you can, restore your foe who has bent the knee, because it is easier to maintain the status quo than to build a new one.