gash is back Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 will we see someone warg a dragon? will it drive them insane? will they become "one" with the dragon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archmaester Drew Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 No. No dragon skinchanging I suspect. Dragons are fire made flesh and magical. It is hard enough to skinchange a human, a dragon would seem impossible. To try may well cause insanity -- or psionic immolation! :devil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I think to warg a dragon, the skinchanger would need blood of the dragon. Only two people fit that description: BR and Jon. I think Jon will warg a dragon in the end. If he intends to mount one< I think he would warg it to avoid any potential fiery death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 The fact that historically the greenseers and skinchangers of the Children and First Men apparently never used dragons as weapons against their enemies - even back in the day when they still lived in Westeros - suggests that this is not possible. However, a skinchanger with dragonlord blood probably could do it - but, on the other hand, he wouldn't need to, as the dragonlord blood would also allow him to bond with a dragon the Targaryen way. The shattering effect Melisandre's fire attack had on Varamyr should be kept in mind, too. I'd not be surprised if trying to skinchange into a dragon would have similar effects especially if dragon souls/spirits are 'hot'/'fiery', too, and not only their bodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daendrew Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I personally strongly feel it has already been done in the series. Bran died when he was thrown, he paid for his new life with his soul to Bloodraven. Even having "the terrible knowledge" involved. Check out this potential ice dragon sighting at Hardhome I think IceBrandon will break the internet in the finale. Notice unlike in the books Melissandre is not with Jon at the Wall. Bran is the dragon she seeks to wake. Bran is the stone dragon made of ice. Winds of Winter =/= season. Winter is the Stark ice dragon. Winds = cold gusts of the ice dragon.' Brace yourself. Winter is Coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Lord Varys makes a valid point about the Children not using dragons against the First Men - else they would have repelled the First Men with ease. So it would seem that fully controlling a dragon is unlikely. However, this does not preclude the possibility of partially warging a dragon, similar to how Varamyr tried to warg Thistle, causing the dragon to go mad and potentially fatally injuring itself when crashing to the ground from a great height. This would meet the requirements of two ancient events. 1. It would nullify dragons as an offensive weapon AGAINST the Children, and potentially explain the setback that the ancient Valyrians experienced at Battle Isle, thus making them avoid Westeros ever since. 2. At the same time it would make dragons useless as an offensive weapon BY the Children, as their control is insufficient to bend the dragon to their will. Having mad dragons crashing randomly into the ground would not assist much in the war against the First Men. So in my view, partial dragon warging - by greenseers - is possible, on a similar basis to Varamyr's attempt to warg Thistle. And the reason for the inability of full warging, is not because dragons are particularly strong willed or intelligent - we know they are roughly as intelligent as dogs -, but because of their unnatural origins, thus weakening their link to the natural cycle of life, which is what all of the Children's magic is immersed in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 The fact that historically the greenseers and skinchangers of the Children and First Men apparently never used dragons as weapons against their enemies - even back in the day when they still lived in Westeros - suggests that this is not possibly. However, a skinchanger with dragonlord blood probably could do it - but, on the other hand, he wouldn't need to, as the dragonlord blood would also allow him to bond with a dragon the Targaryen way. The shattering effect Melisandre's fire attack had on Varamyr should be kept in mind, too. I'd not be surprised if trying to skinchange into a dragon would have similar effects especially if dragon souls/spirits are 'hot'/'fiery', too, and not only their bodies. What makes you think that Valyrian type dragons are the only possible types of dragons and they existed while the First Men warred the CotF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Valyrian dragons are only a small sub-population of the original global dragon population, which existed on every continent, in every corner of the explored world. These dragons predated Valyria - and in fact predated the Long Night - and were encountered by the First Men when they first crossed the Arm of Dorne into Westeros. These dragons all died out long before a small colony of surviving dragons were discovered in the volcanos of Valyria thousands of years later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daendrew Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 What makes you think that Valyrian type dragons are the only possible types of dragons and they existed while the First Men warred the CotF? “The Frostfangs were as cruel as any place the gods had made, and as inimical to men.”“There’s giants in the Frostfangs, and wargs, and worse things.” What are somethings that make fangs from frost? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I think to warg a dragon, the skinchanger would need blood of the dragon. Only two people fit that description: BR and Jon. I think Jon will warg a dragon in the end. If he intends to mount one< I think he would warg it to avoid any potential fiery death. I'm considering that as a possibility as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Why should assume that there were different types of dragons if there is nothing to suggest as much? Fire wyrms and wyverns aren't dragons, they are a different species, but closely related to dragons. Perhaps Yandel is wrong and there aren't any dragon bones to be found in Westeros - only bones that are mistakenly considered to be be dragonbone but actually are remnants of wyverns. But I doubt that as dragonbone is black and impervious to fire, and the maesters and other scholars in Westeros can compare ancient dragon bones found in Westeros with the recent bones from the Targaryen dragons - and apparently they match. It is not yet clear whether the Valyrians actually tried to conquer/land at Oldtown or whether the whole Battle Island name thing goes back to the Long Night - then whatever battle was fought there might have resulted in a defeat/retreat by an invading force (Ghiscari or Valyrian if the Long Night was much later in history than we assume) in a battle against the Others, not the First Men or the Children. But generally I'd agree that skinchangers may be able to interfere with the bond between dragonrider and dragon - if that's the case, this fact alone could have convinced the dragonlords to make a tactical retreat and shun Westeros ever since. I'm not sure the greenseers or skinchangers could really bind a dragon to their will, though. Overtaking strong and unwilling animals - like shadow cats, birds, or snow bears - and humans seems to be a gradual thing. Weak skinchangers only can take over dogs and wolves, stronger skinchangers other animals as well. Weak skinchanger can also master only one animal while stronger ones - like Varamyr - can control multiple animals at the same time. If dragons are a 'different sort of animal' altogether due to their innate magic it may be difficult or virtually impossible for a normal skinchanger to master them simply because they lack a vital magical quality. But that's just a guess. Perhaps humans are more difficult than dragons due to the fact that they brains are much more complex. Even Bran - the most powerful skinchanger in the entire series - can only take over retarded Hodor as of yet. Perhaps this will change in the future - or not, we'll have to wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 The fact that historically the greenseers and skinchangers of the Children and First Men apparently never used dragons as weapons against their enemies - even back in the day when they still lived in Westeros - suggests that this is not possible. However, a skinchanger with dragonlord blood probably could do it - but, on the other hand, he wouldn't need to, as the dragonlord blood would also allow him to bond with a dragon the Targaryen way. Daenerys bonds with the dragons because she raised them since they were born, and even then she has no control over Drogon when she flies off with him. So I doubt Targ blood creates a special bond by itself, let alone control. It's more like a duckling hatching and seeing a human first before their true parent and waddling after the human... it's called imprinting, rather than bonding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daendrew Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Fire dragons and ice dragon bonding I think needs special blood. Just as special blood is needed to warg. Kingsblood has magic because the people with magicblood became kings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Martin expressly said that the reason for ancient stories of dragonslayers from the Westerosi Age of Heroes is because there were dragons all over, once. So we know for a fact that there were dragons in Westeros, and that the Maesters are correct in their assessment of dragonbones being found in Westeros from before the Valyrian era. As to different kinds of dragons. While different populations may have had slightly different colouring and other superficial characteristics, they were all dragons. Unnaturally created creatures that spread out from wherever they were melded with magic, from source populations of wyverns and firewyrms, to spread out across the entire globe. Until the Long Night, when they all died out. Except in Valyria. (My guess for the site of their original creation is the Shadowlands, which has been scarred ever after by this abominable abuse of magic. From this point they spread across the globe, since their capability of flight and their immense physical lethality meant they were not limited by geography, nor did they have any natural predators). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Fire dragons and ice dragon bonding I think needs special blood. Just as special blood is needed to warg. Kingsblood has magic because the people with magicblood became kings. Then how come none kingsblood and non-targs managed to subdue dragons during Dance of the Dragons 1.0 for Rheanyra? These were the dragonseeds (bastards from dragonlord lines) who managed to master a dragon: Vermithor - Hugh Hammer, Silverwing - Ulf The White, Seasmoke - Addam of Hull and Sheepstealer - Nettles. Adam of Hull was a Velaryon bastard, not a Targ and not of kingsblood. Nettles is of unknown origin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daendrew Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Then how come none kingsblood and non-targs managed to subdue dragons during Dance of the Dragons 1.0 for Rheanyra? These were the dragonseeds (bastards from dragonlord lines) who managed to master a dragon: Vermithor - Hugh Hammer, Silverwing - Ulf The White, Seasmoke - Addam of Hull and Sheepstealer - Nettles. Adam of Hull was a Velaryon bastard, not a Targ and not of kingsblood. The answer is in Aegons "bloody" letter from Dorne. I think a dragon horn was stolen and the blood was Viscenyas (or the other ones?) not Aegons. It can be done. Esp in the case of sheepstealer. Wild horses can be tamed. But how often? They put eggs in the cribs so they can telepathically connect in dreams. There might have been something to help that. Hot Pie will ride a dragon. He has the sheep pies. Aegons wife may have been raped and a whole new Great Bastard may become public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 The answer is in Aegons "bloody" letter from Dorne. I think a dragon horn was stolen and the blood was Viscenyas (or the other ones?) not Aegons. It can be done. Esp in the case of sheepstealer. Wild horses can be tamed. But how often? They put eggs in the cribs so they can telepathically connect in dreams. There might have been something to help that. Hot Pie will ride a dragon. He has the sheep pies. Aegons wife may have been raped and a whole new Great Bastard may become public. What letter from Dorne? Aegon II was in KL and then hid in Dragonstone when Rhaenyra took KL, and returned to KL after he fed Rhaenyra to Sunfyre. The dragonseeds were told by Jacaerys Velaryon that any man who could master one of the 6 riderless dragons at Dragonstone would earn knighthood and wealth. 16 died, 48 were maimed, 4 succeeded. No horn was involved in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 From what I see, valyrian dragons should eventually die from starvation. They are unnatural. They destroy the ecosystem around them. Those huge bat skeletons Bran saw in the cave might be natural dragons without firebreath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daendrew Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 From what I see, valyrian dragons should eventually die from starvation. They are unnatural. They destroy the ecosystem around them. Those huge bat skeletons Bran saw in the cave might be natural dragons without firebreath. I just had the thought. maybe they are not skeletons. Maybe they are real ice dragons just transparent and what he sees are "skeletons." Not saying it's true. How would skeletons hang? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 sweetsunray, I was not talking about Daenerys. All the other Targaryen dragonriders were bound to their dragons for life in a special bond of unknown (magical) origin. Nurturing dragons from the time they hatched certainly may help in the bonding process, but it has nothing to do with the bond between dragonrider and dragon that is formed when a dragonrider successfully mounts a dragon. If dragons could be mounted by pretty much everyone who was close to them - say, because he/she fed the dragon his whole life - then Jace wouldn't have been forced to search for potential dragonriders. The people feeding Silverwing, Vermithor, and Seasmoke could have mounted them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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