Mad Max contd: further along the Fury Road [spoilers]

[Fez]

Not so sure about that, as I got the impression that he was at least marginally mentally impaired. The sequence where he proclaims that he has a baby brother who's perfect in everyway kind of underlined that for me. If I had to guess, I'd say the physically deformed brother (dwarf?) was closer to being his second, although his limitations prevented him from being any sort of Field Commander. I suppose you could say those two underlined Joe's desire for a perfect heir. He had the physical speciman, and the mental half, but not one ideal whole.

Yeah, I definitely don't think Rictus was any sort of second-in-command. He was a useful muscle guy and got a better life than most by virtue of being one of Joe's sons, but he never seemed in charge of anything.

[Kalbear]

Actually, strike that. Immortan Joe's world has put warboys - guys with visible tumors, deformities and suffering cancers and the like - ahead of women in the army. People who are actually less capable as fighters due to their illness (and a requirement that they get blood transfusions to even function) are put in the forefront over completely capable women who can fight.

Why do you think that is?

[polishgenius]

To me, it implies more than her just having suffered slavery and sexual abuse; it implies that she fucked over other women to get where she was.

I'm not saying she didn't, but why does it imply that she fucked over women specifically? As Immortan Joe's warleader, I can imagine her having done lots and lots of horrible things that would have made her want redemption without any particular focus on women.

The fact that the others trust her enough to run away with her (and follow her leadership without question throughout) suggests to me that even though she wasn't openly opposing him, she wasn't doing anything to make their plight worse and was possibly sympathetic on the quiet.

As for her place in Joe's Heirarchy and the apparent lack of misogyny this is supposed to show: I think the brand on her neck makes it clear that he sees her as property just as much as the other women.

[Kalbear]

I also took it that she'd sell the women she rescued for safe passage.

Um...what? That was what you thought this movie was about? Furiosa - this woman who came from a matriarchal tribe, who risked everything she had and everyone else had to get the five wives to the Green Place that she remembered, who says explicitly that she is doing this so that she can be redeemed - you think that her goal was to kidnap the wives so she could sell them?

And this makes sense to you?

I'm not saying she didn't, but why does it imply that she fucked over women specifically? As Immortan Joe's warleader, I can imagine her having done lots and lots of horrible things that would have made her want redemption without any particular focus on women.

It implies it because she is specifically rescuing women as her redemption act. She could have rescued some of the pups, or decided to try and assassinate Joe, or any number of other things. But instead she chose very deliberately to make sure that 5 women were not things. That isn't a simple act. To me, it implies that she was complicit it making women things along the way.

As an example: it would be a very simple backstory to have Furiosa be in charge of a raiding party that took one of these women. And she did it knowing that Joe would have that woman in his harem. That's something I can easily see her doing, and something I can see Joe wanting done. Simply killing a bunch of people or hurting others isn't, I think, enough for this specific act of redemption.

[mormont]

Again on this thread people making broad statements about plot with no supporting exposition in the movie.

Yeah, that is a real problem. Here are some particularly egregious examples.

They made his second in command a woman.

Rictus was Joe's son, and he was also dumber than a bag of rocks. Second in command? Hardly, more like standby muscle.

I took it that Furiosa was simply grabbing a chance to escape with a shit load of fuel to her previous home. I also took it that she'd sell the women she rescued for safe passage.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I'm pretty sure Rictus is soft in the head. I don't think that is a miscall.

ETA: Just wanted to add that I think it is a testament to this film that we have to make assumptions regarding certain characters and situations, and have to kind of piece together the truth based on what we've seen. Very little is actually spelled out, and I love that.

[Rhom]

I was typing up another thread and when it hit, this one was already here with multiple responses. Mods can delete my thread. I would suggest to Fez however to mark this thread clearly in the title as containing spoilers. We went pretty far outside the bounds of normal board territory in the last thread... I'd hate for anyone to accidentally find out there was guitar playing guy in a onesie in the movie. :lol:

Anyways, the gist of what I was getting at in my other post was that I also don't see how you can get the impression that Furiosa is going to sell the wives. She was pretty clearly giving up everything she had on the hope and prayer that she could escape to freedom with them. Also, she does everything she can to protect them at every turn.

I was always a little confused by the War Rig and its contents. It sure seemed to be carrying a lot of fuel even without the spare pod to have made it as far as it did on the run out and back. There was the scene with the milk, but the wives also washed off with fresh water from the rig too. At one point, I thought the rig was empty and the wives were hiding in there but later in the movie that seemed to be incorrect.

[Kalbear]

I'm sure he is soft in the head. That doesn't matter; Joe's hierarchy isn't picked based on merit. If it was, Joe wouldn't be at the top. Neither would the random elephant foot dude, for that matter. Rictus was Joe's son, and as such he is pretty close to the top of the food chain. Corpus Collossus was also up there near the top, and he's almost entirely fully disabled. Doesn't matter; they're Joe's family.

No matter how good Furiosa was, she isn't Joe's family.

And Joe kind of has to do it this way - Joe is after all divine. His children are children of the divine god. If they weren't part of his council and part of the leadership it would be a stain on Joe's divinity.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I was always a little confused by the War Rig and its contents. It sure seemed to be carrying a lot of fuel even without the spare pod to have made it as far as it did on the run out and back. There was the scene with the milk, but the wives also washed off with fresh water from the rig too. At one point, I thought the rig was empty and the wives were hiding in there but later in the movie that seemed to be incorrect.

Yeah, if I had to guess, the rig was carrying water and milk. That seems to be the Citadels primary exports. I'm assuming they swap the water and milk for gas and bullets.

[Fez]

I was typing up another thread and when it hit, this one was already here with multiple responses. Mods can delete my thread. I would suggest to Fez however to mark this thread clearly in the title as containing spoilers.

I didn't actually create this thread, it was some mod sorcery that took my post from the last thread and used to start this thread. I added spoilers to the title, but the more important thing is to prepare for war with these witch doctors who can create thread titles under other peoples' names!

[Rhom]

I didn't actually create this thread, it was some mod sorcery that took my post from the last thread and used to start this thread. I added spoilers to the title, but the more important thing is to prepare for war with these witch doctors who can create thread titles under other peoples' names!

I'll get the chrome paint! You get the heavily modded cars from the 1970s!

[Fez]

I'll get the chrome paint! You get the heavily modded cars from the 1970s!

Witness me bloodbag!

[Dr. Pepper]

I'm not saying she didn't, but why does it imply that she fucked over women specifically? As Immortan Joe's warleader, I can imagine her having done lots and lots of horrible things that would have made her want redemption without any particular focus on women.

The fact that the others trust her enough to run away with her (and follow her leadership without question throughout) suggests to me that even though she wasn't openly opposing him, she wasn't doing anything to make their plight worse and was possibly sympathetic on the quiet.

As for her place in Joe's Heirarchy and the apparent lack of misogyny this is supposed to show: I think the brand on her neck makes it clear that he sees her as property just as much as the other women.

To me, the first indication is when she's charged with driving the tanker of mother's milk, the liquid gold obtained from the enslavement of women treated like livestock. The next indication is that she's on a redemption mission, with the road to redemption being to free women. She's not trying to free the poor war boys or the blood bags. In fact, she's actively trying to kill them at the start. If she's looking for redemption and the way to do that is to free these pregnant women, then the implication is that she's done something in her past to fuck over women.

There's no dispute that Furiosa started off her life at the Citadel as a slave. Despite being a slave, she has still moved into this very high ranking position (it wasn't by opposing what Joe stood for) and what eventually led to her seeking redemption by way of freeing women. Considering Joe's first thought was to run to the wives vault, I'm guessing Furiosa had a lot of access to the women slaves inside the Citadel. Her willingness to fuck over women is likely how she became trusted to interact with them without Joe fearing she would do anything, like help them escape. I mean, if she's playing a vital role in enslaving them, it usually follows that this sort of person wouldn't be going on to free them.

[mormont]

I'm sure he is soft in the head. That doesn't matter; Joe's hierarchy isn't picked based on merit. If it was, Joe wouldn't be at the top. Neither would the random elephant foot dude, for that matter. Rictus was Joe's son, and as such he is pretty close to the top of the food chain. Corpus Collossus was also up there near the top, and he's almost entirely fully disabled. Doesn't matter; they're Joe's family.

No matter how good Furiosa was, she isn't Joe's family.

And Joe kind of has to do it this way - Joe is after all divine. His children are children of the divine god. If they weren't part of his council and part of the leadership it would be a stain on Joe's divinity.

I'd suggest it's more than this. They're Joe's sons. And we know that sons are a big deal to Joe. Sons, specifically. We never see a daughter. Which means either that he has daughters but we don't see them, probably because they don't share his sons' status: or, that there was a deliberate choice not to give Joe a daughter, which was almost certainly for a reason. Either way, it looks to be a reinforcement of the patriarchal nature of Joe's culture.

[polishgenius]

As an example: it would be a very simple backstory to have Furiosa be in charge of a raiding party that took one of these women. And she did it knowing that Joe would have that woman in her harem. That's something I can easily see her doing, and something I can see Joe wanting done. Simply killing a bunch of people or hurting others isn't, I think, enough for this specific act of redemption.

As I say, I'm not saying she didn't: I don't think that it's particularly unlikely that that or something like it happened (though I think there'd have been more mistrust of her if she'd been the one to kidnap any of them specifically). I just don't think anything in the film says that it did. I don't see any reason why her choosing this specific path for redemption means she was only ever going to choose this one or that the fact that she hurt women in the past is her motivation for it. Maybe she chose this because it's what hurts Joe the most. Maybe they asked her and it occurred to her 'shit, this is a chance to do something good for once'. Maybe she feels that merely being part of Joe's sexist patriarchal world is enough of an offense without her having done anything specific.

[Kalbear]

I just don't think anything in the film says that it did.

Nothing explicitly was stated. But then again, nothing explicitly was stated almost anywhere, which is yet one more awesome thing. There's almost no exposition. There's almost no backstory. We know that Furiosa is respected by Joe and by the warboys, but we don't know why she is different than the rest of the women. Heck, she might have been spared as a bride because she has a genetic problem - her arm (there is such a thing as a fetal deformity that causes a loss of an arm). We don't know, and until the Furiosa spinoff we won't know more.

But we can make some educated guesses. And one reasonable guess is that Furiosa is seeking redemption by way of freeing a bunch of sex slaves because she was involved in that sex slave trade in some very personal way. There are other possibilities, sure - but that one makes a lot of sense - sense for why Joe trusts her so much, sense for what she's doing, sense for why she's doing it, sense for how she managed to get a higher role in the world.

It could also be the case that she's selling the wives. One of those is a teensy, tiny bit more plausible than the other.

[mormont]

As I say, I'm not saying she didn't: I don't think that it's particularly unlikely that that or something like it happened (though I think there'd have been more mistrust of her if she'd been the one to kidnap any of them specifically). I just don't think anything in the film says that it did. I don't see any reason why her choosing this specific path for redemption means she was only ever going to choose this one or that the fact that she hurt women in the past is her motivation for it. Maybe she chose this because it's what hurts Joe the most. Maybe they asked her and it occurred to her 'shit, this is a chance to do something good for once'. Maybe she feels that merely being part of Joe's sexist patriarchal world is enough of an offense without her having done anything specific.

I think that her background is implied to play a part in her decision to free the wives, but otherwise, this is fair: there's nothing else in the film that really suggests why this was her act of rebellion.

[denstorebog]

Uh, isn't a more plausible reason that the wives are the most obvious and accessible targets for rescue? The warboys don't want to be freed, even the wee ones, so good luck with that. And Furiosa doesn't have any contact with (or probably even sympathy for) the bloodbags. Whereas the wives quite explicitly want their freedom for themselves and their children (they specifically state so in their goodbye message to Joe).

So yeah, Furiosa rescues the wives because they're captive against their will and she has had contact with them through their positions in Joe's society. She does it because she recognizes their plight (and their unborn children's), having been captured herself as a child. This by itself makes perfect sense, as opposed to rescuing warboys or blooodbags, so why would there need to be more reasons?

[DanteGabriel]

The implication that Furiosa had taken part in crimes against women and thus sought her redemption through rescuing some women was pretty clear to me. It didn't occur to me that it would not be the immediate inference for anybody else.

I guess we'll find out when she gets her own movie.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

I'm sure he is soft in the head. That doesn't matter; Joe's hierarchy isn't picked based on merit. If it was, Joe wouldn't be at the top. Neither would the random elephant foot dude, for that matter. Rictus was Joe's son, and as such he is pretty close to the top of the food chain. Corpus Collossus was also up there near the top, and he's almost entirely fully disabled. Doesn't matter; they're Joe's family.

Sure, Rictus has stature just by the fact that he's Joe's son. What I don't think he has much of is responsibility. I don't think Joe is stupid enough to have a feeb as his second, that's all.