Heresy 169

[Black Crow]

Given this, I've been mulling over what you said upthread re: the Children trying to re-establish the dominance of Magic per se. They could see it as their chance, now there is a resurgence of magic (going off the assumption that they really do derive their magic from the earth, etc. and therefore have to deal with what appears to be a natural waxing or waning of magic. ) And given that they seem rather diminished, could definitely make them want to go for the nuclear winter option. If so, a new Pact is just out of the question (back to your pilgrim metaphor in Conrad--push comes to shove, they shoot anybody).

Which would mean that either they are running the greenseers (sorry, Wolfmaid) or are working with them. I'm thinking it would have to be the first. Can't see what human greenseers get out of nuclear winter. But the Children get their world back. Need Bran (as has been mentioned many times before)--puts him back in the position of maybe stopping this ONLY if he figures it out--potentially puts the need for his siblings back in play.

Yes, powerful though they might be I agree that the greenseers serve rather than "rule"

[Sly Wren]

Hey--potential crackpot--or potential repeat of a theory I haven't read yet--or both. Any chance the Children could have been involved in setting up the prophesies? I am not a fan of the "one big power controls all" model in any novel, even fantasy. But it wouldn't have to be a "one ring" sort of thing.

The Children tell Bran not to call the past back, which means Bran could have spoken to "Past Ned." Could suggest they could have spoken to others in the past--planted some information?

Most prophesies deal with the "central figure wielding magic" to save humanity. The 7 metaphor we've been playing with would NOT be ideal for the return of ice and/or fire magic. Helpful to Children if people focus on "one person who saves all via magic" metaphor vs. "group who can save from magic" metaphor. If the Children saw magic resurgence coming, knew it would be their chance, could try to maximize their using that resurgence. Not a "one ring" kind of power. But influence.

I don't like "reading" the prophesies too much--Martin warns against that. The prophesies vagueness is easily explained via human tendencies and psychology. But, is a connection between the Children and the prophesies possible? Would explain why similar prophesies come out of the Red lot--ice and fire both want magic to regain dominance.

[wolfmaid7]

Yes, powerful though they might be I agree that the greenseers serve rather than "rule"

Sly wren said:

Given this, I've been mulling over what you said upthread re: the Children trying to re-establish the dominance of Magic per se. They could see it as their chance, now there is a resurgence of magic (going off the assumption that they really do derive their magic from the earth, etc. and therefore have to deal with what appears to be a natural waxing or waning of magic. ) And given that they seem rather diminished, could definitely make them want to go for the nuclear winter option. If so, a new Pact is just out of the question (back to your pilgrim metaphor in Conrad--push comes to shove, they shoot anybody).

Which would mean that either they are running the greenseers (sorry, Wolfmaid) or are working with them. I'm thinking it would have to be the first. Can't see what human greenseers get out of nuclear winter. But the Children get their world back. Need Bran (as has been mentioned many times before)--puts him back in the position of maybe stopping this ONLY if he figures it out--potentially puts the need for his siblings back in play.

Either or works as i said at this point be it the children are the brains of the Greenseers or vice versa the power still lies with the Greenseers they are the ones that have the power to make things happened dupped or initiator.

But consider this they need the human greenseers,they never had it so good or a chance until they grated them in and they need to have a supply to choose from so killing everyone is not in their interest in anybody's interest for that matter.

A nuclear winter or super nova summer will which is just as likely will not do either. I disagree that the only option left to the COTF is wiping humans out to get their land back it doesn't jive with the narrative of the outcasts.Especially seeing as they need them.Look at what mainstream Westeros is antagonistic against Skinchangers,wargs,greenseers,Direwolves,giants etc.Plus humans atleast some of them are to intergrated into to land to be wiped out.Their need to be a well estabilshed base of sympathetic humans.

What we have already is a returned to how things use to be where we have these "supernatural" factions working together and or with humans.With the greenseers in charge.The children's personality and characteristic does not seem to indicate anything other than they have to be led the majority of the time and their similarity to the Native Indians put a Shaman like individual at the helm.

They don't sem to have the strategic mindset or the guile needed to pull this off and if the Greenseer is basically skinchanging a data base there noway he's their lacky

Here's the main reason why i disagree.The notion that a human greenseer would have nothing to gain from this

I listed greenseers as outcast because they are.On a personal level a new world where those of your kind Skinchangers,wargs,greenseers wouln't be hunted and killed,ostercized is great .He would want a place where his kind will be accepted and could thrive.The children would want sympathetic humans as well

This can be described as a symbiotic relationship of the two a theme that runs through this story.Children and sympathetic/supernatural humans living in the land.

[Black Crow]

The children's personality and characteristic does not seem to indicate anything other than they have to be led the majority of the time and their similarity to the Native Indians put a Shaman like individual at the helm.

I'm not so sure and tend to see it more in the nature of mediaeval Scottish kingship. The king although not actually elected was held to represent his people and entrusted with leading them, but if he failed to exercise that trust honestly and wisely he could be set aside and replaced by another. Similarly I'd see the children being guided by their greenseers but not necessarily obeying them "as if they were the great Solyman"

[Black Crow]

I don't like "reading" the prophesies too much--Martin warns against that anyway. And the vagueness of the prophesies can easily be explained via human tendencies and psychology. But, is a connection between the Children and the prophesies possible? Would explain why similar prophesies come out of the Red lot--ice and fire both want magic to regain dominance.

I'm not really sure what that would achieve and tend myself to see the prophecies as a dangerous distraction. What I think interesting is the lack of any emphasis on prophesy until Melisandre turns up from out east and all of a sudden readers are falling over themselves, in spite of GRRM's warnings, to identify Azor Ahai etc and proclaim him [or her] as the saviour of mankind against the Others.

I suspect myself that the prophecies are red herrings - a distraction from figuring out what's really going on.

[wolfmaid7]

I'm not so sure and tend to see it more in the nature of mediaeval Scottish kingship. The king although not actually elected was held to represent his people and entrusted with leading them, but if he failed to exercise that trust honestly and wisely he could be set aside and replaced by another. Similarly I'd see the children being guided by their greenseers but not necessarily obeying them "as if they were the great Solyman"

I was thinking more along the line of a High priest or Shaman role actually where they are leaders revered because of some ability that was beneficial to the people and would help guide them in matters of the spiritual and political.

[Sly Wren]

Either or works as i said at this point be it the children are the brains of the Greenseers or vice versa the power still lies with the Greenseers they are the ones that have the power to make things happened dupped or initiator.

But consider this they need the human greenseers,they never had it so good or a chance until they grated them in and they need to have a supply to choose from so killing everyone is not in their interest in anybody's interest for that matter.

A nuclear winter or super nova summer will which is just as likely will not do either. I disagree that the only option left to the COTF is wiping humans out to get their land back it doesn't jive with the narrative of the outcasts.Especially seeing as they need them.Look at what mainstream Westeros is antagonistic against Skinchangers,wargs,greenseers,Direwolves,giants etc.Plus humans atleast some of them are to intergrated into to land to be wiped out.Their need to be a well estabilshed base of sympathetic humans.

What we have already is a returned to how things use to be where we have these "supernatural" factions working together and or with humans.With the greenseers in charge.The children's personality and characteristic does not seem to indicate anything other than they have to be led the majority of the time and their similarity to the Native Indians put a Shaman like individual at the helm.

They don't sem to have the strategic mindset or the guile needed to pull this off and if the Greenseer is basically skinchanging a data base there noway he's their lackey

Here's the main reason why i disagree.The notion that a human greenseer would have nothing to gain from this

I listed greenseers as outcast because they are.On a personal level a new world where those of your kind Skinchangers,wargs,greenseers wouln't be hunted and killed,ostercized is great .He would want a place where his kind will be accepted and could thrive.The children would want sympathetic humans as well

This can be described as a symbiotic relationship of the two a theme that runs through this story.Children and sympathetic/supernatural humans living in the land.

1. Can agree with "greenseer as outcast" and probably that's how they find the Children. But that doesn't preclude the Children being the ones ultimately in control. And if the Children could get rid of the humans from Westeros, would they need the power the human greenseer gives them? Greenseers as not "lackeys," but "no longer really necessary partners after Winter does its work?"

2. As for the Children not wanting to eradicate humans from Westeros because the Children are outcasts--I can't see why not. Yes, their outcast status may give them sympathy, but could also make them very fed up. They are already feeding Bran the "we are dwindling" sob story. Which is probably true. But their willingness to dwindle--why do that if they have options?

3. I can't think of evidence that says the Children don't have strategic minds . . . . Very happy to be corrected.

4. Agree that the ideal world for the Children would be "Children and sympathetic humans." They seemed to have gotten that to some degree with the First Men. But given their greatly decreased numbers, they may have decided they can't try for that again. Magic is rising. They have one shot. And if the greenseers are outcasts and dying (which they seem to be), they may have decided there's no point in saving humans either.

Which is where Bran could be a real threat--he loves his family. He's connected to them--now even more so potentially through the visions and weirwoods. If the greenseers are supposed to be the servants, could make Bran a better weapon--the Children won't assume a little boy would fight them. . . .

[Sly Wren]

I'm not really sure what that would achieve and tend myself to see the prophecies as a dangerous distraction. What I think interesting is the lack of any emphasis on prophesy until Melisandre turns up from out east and all of a sudden readers are falling over themselves, in spite of GRRM's warnings, to identify Azor Ahai etc and proclaim him [or her] as the saviour of mankind against the Others.

I suspect myself that the prophecies are red herrings - a distraction from figuring out what's really going on.

Yes, the prophesies are red herrings. I thought that was a standard interp until I ventured onto other threads. Illuminating.

The prophesies could have come from elsewhere--Maggy the Frog does seem to know something. But given that the prophesies distract humans (and readers), could CotF have used that vulnerability? Not as a main strategy--but they have lots of time. Giving humans a nudge in the wrong direction . . .It most probably isn't true--too contingent on too many factors. But human tendency to chase prophesies and heroes helps the Children's cause.

[Frey family reunion]

I think the point of the prophecies is for Martin to see how clever he can get in having the prophecies come true in a really skewed way.

[wolfmaid7]

1. Can agree with "greenseer as outcast" and probably that's how they find the Children. But that doesn't preclude the Children being the ones ultimately in control. And if the Children could get rid of the humans from Westeros, would they need the power the human greenseer gives them? Greenseers as not "lackeys," but "no longer really necessary partners after Winter does its work?"

2. As for the Children not wanting to eradicate humans from Westeros because the Children are outcasts--I can't see why not. Yes, their outcast status may give them sympathy, but could also make them very fed up. They are already feeding Bran the "we are dwindling" sob story. Which is probably true. But their willingness to dwindle--why do that if they have options?

3. I can't think of evidence that says the Children don't have strategic minds . . . . Very happy to be corrected.

4. Agree that the ideal world for the Children would be "Children and sympathetic humans." They seemed to have gotten that to some degree with the First Men. But given their greatly decreased numbers, they may have decided they can't try for that again. Magic is rising. They have one shot. And if the greenseers are outcasts and dying (which they seem to be), they may have decided there's no point in saving humans either.

Which is where Bran could be a real threat--he loves his family. He's connected to them--now even more so potentially through the visions and weirwoods. If the greenseers are supposed to be the servants, could make Bran a better weapon--the Children won't assume a little boy would fight them. . . .

1.For this i have to look at what the cultural,social and religious paradigm tells me and what it says is that the children are to engrained.Their won't ever come a time they "don't need" them.If Luuwin is correct when speaking of the Children.

"Their gods were the gods of the forest, stream, and stone, the old gods whose names are secret. Their wise men were called greenseers, and carved strange faces in the weirwoods to keep watch on the woods. How long the children reigned here or where they came from, no man can know.......

"Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye."

The above tells me that the greenseers place was pivitol in the culture of the children as long as they (cotf) are part of the world and are close to the weirwoods they'll need a certain kind of human.

2.No misunderstand me the Children share the same status as Greenseers,Skinchangers,wargs and Giants .A world that's not ready or accepting of them.Except the Children have a need for men of the skinchanging type.Everybody :dunno:

3.We look at the way that they fought war and interacted with humans.They don't have that type of mind case in point.The clan of Children being dupped by Gendel and Gorne out of their cave system.The fact that eventhough your god scared the crap out of the first men so much they converted.You conceded most of your lands in a pact and now they are fighting back to get it what they either gave up without thinking or got dupped in the pact ?Again either way you look at it it takes a man to think like a man.

4. Again i see no logic in killing all humans by the Children of the forest or in my case the other Seer their whole point is to guide and protect.If anything the Greenseers are connected to the trees who the children believe are gods so the greenseers are intermediaries between the trees and the children.Without the greenseers the Children do not "hear from the gods." And that places the children in a position of vulnerability.

[Armstark]

I can't speak to that... sound kinda bonkers. 'Course, my theory sounds crazy to some of you, so there ya go.

What I want to know is how the hell did Jaime and Cersei get into the broken tower at winterfell? It specifically says that no one can get there without climbing. Seems like one of the only obvious screw-ups I've come across.

Oh bless you GRRM. Look where you've led us.

The twins were not in the broken tower and neither was Bran. It all happened in the First Keep. read the passage again and you will see that Bran was only on his way to the broken tower. On his way to be broken. He can never again visit the broken tower now except if he learns to fly.

I wonder if there is something to be learned from this for how Bran and the overall story will unfold. What intrigues me is what appears to be a tower over a bird's skull on the brooch of the NK in the show.

Oh and Jaime as the new Azor is totally going to happen, not one doubt about it.

[Prince of Ghost]

I saw this interesting thread discussing the For The Watch moment and how Jon may simply survive the attack without Mel's intervention.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/130177-why-i-believe-jon-is-not-in-need-of-resurrectionwarging/#entry7052588

[Sly Wren]

The twins were not in the broken tower and neither was Bran. It all happened in the First Keep. read the passage again and you will see that Bran was only on his way to the broken tower. On his way to be broken. He can never again visit the broken tower now except if he learns to fly.

I wonder if there is something to be learned from this for how Bran and the overall story will unfold. What intrigues me is what appears to be a tower over a bird's skull on the brooch of the NK in the show.

Oh and Jaime as the new Azor is totally going to happen, not one doubt about it.

I couldn't find an image of a tower and bird's skull anywhere on the HBO Nights King--any hints to get me seeing what you are seeing?

As for the broken tower--I thought it just tied into Bran's greenseeing. Only other thing I can think of is tarot cards. The broken tower means sudden judgment from on high. From God. Could tie into Bran. How that may tie into the Night's King--not at all sure . . Not sure if that's where you were going with this. . .

Could see Jaime as Ahor Azai. But I think multiple characters will fill out parts of the prophesies . . .

[Sly Wren]

I saw this interesting thread discussing the For The Watch moment and how Jon may simply survive the attack without Mel's intervention.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/130177-why-i-believe-jon-is-not-in-need-of-resurrectionwarging/#entry7052588

Thanks! I'm partial to any "Jon not regenerated by Mel" survival. Wonder if that's why show changed Mel's storyline.

[Black Crow]

I saw this interesting thread discussing the For The Watch moment and how Jon may simply survive the attack without Mel's intervention.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/130177-why-i-believe-jon-is-not-in-need-of-resurrectionwarging/#entry7052588

Interesting one. I don't agree that the wound "smoking" is significant because its used elsewhere by GRRM simply to describe the condensation as hot blood meets very cold air. Also Ghost was last seen locked up in Jon's chambers so is unlikely to be physically intervening.

Otherwise I'd say that's a pretty fair analysis of the [non-fatal] wounding.

[Black Crow]

"Their gods were the gods of the forest, stream, and stone, the old gods whose names are secret. Their wise men were called greenseers, and carved strange faces in the weirwoods to keep watch on the woods. How long the children reigned here or where they came from, no man can know.......

"Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye."

Returning to the greenseers there are a couple of seeming contradictions which may actually answer a question that's been bugging me for some time. Maester Luwin [and everyone else] is speaking as an outsider and how men perceive the children as a society may not be accurate. The description of the greenseers as wise men, carving faces and meeting with the First men doesn't quite match up to the dead man in the tree or to those others cocooned in the caves.

I've spoken before about the problem or basic communication let alone the complexities of agreeing the Pact. We know from the history as told in the World Book that the Children had human captives [and sacrificed them], but it occurs to me that the language difficulty would most easily have been overcome through the greenseers skinchanging some of those captives and speaking through their mouths.

That I think offers a simple solution but it may at the same time have helped create the impression that the greenseers were the masters not the servants of the wood dancers.

[Black Crow]

I wonder if there is something to be learned from this for how Bran and the overall story will unfold. What intrigues me is what appears to be a tower over a bird's skull on the brooch of the NK in the show.

Really don't see the tower, but the sigil could be interpreted as a crow [or raven] head

[Black Crow]

A very interesting post by Ran which can't do much for the peace of mind of certain interested parties:

The family tree in the world book was designed by becker&mayer. It is not George's handiwork. Becker&Mayer had the brief of providing a consistent, clear depiction of the family tree, and it was felt by all parties involved that it'd be easiest to leave out things like birth dates, death dates, causes of death, locations of birth, locations of death (all of these are fields in his 2008 tree, which uses the MyHeritage program) in part because those would just be more details to make sure we had correct... and in part because not all entries necessarily had all of these fields filled, while others did. The most consistent thing would be to boil it down to the basics of names, marriages, offspring (and even there, we opted to elide some of them because they led to cadet branches).

WeaselPie's query, as I recall, is a bit confused because they seem to feel that if the details came from GRRM, it's canon. Whereas my view is that even if the detail came from GRRM, it is only semi-canon until it is published in a publication that GRRM had a direct hand in (ASoIaF, D&E, TWoIaF, Fire and Blood eventually maybe). The app, as I've already said, contains semi-canon information -- we don't feel George is bound by the answers he gave to all those queries we sent him (we sent him a LOT) if he comes up with a better idea in the course of writing.

[Black Crow]

I think the point of the prophecies is for Martin to see how clever he can get in having the prophecies come true in a really skewed way.

Probably... and I think that the one thing we can safely predict with any accuracy is that they are not going to turn out as expected :cool4:

[Sly Wren]

A very interesting post by Ran which can't do much for the peace of mind of certain interested parties:

Oh, dear--they will not be happy. Or maybe they will--they really like circles. As do I--to a point.

It just would seem easier if let go of "Jon WILL save the world via magical transformation despite all evidence in novel that magical transformation won't work--it WILL work this time--and R+L=J proves it." Let go of the absoluteness of that, and analyzing all sorts of things gets much less stressful--and fun.