The Adem In The Kingkiller Chronicles

[Jo498]

I have not even read the book in question.

Neither do I have any personal experience in any martial art. But the weight classes in boxing or wrestling are (especially at lower weights) very fine grained. So I am pretty sure it is very important.

Of course this is not to deny that technique, reflexes etc. are not also very important. But if you read Homer or the Sagas you often get the impression (and this seems different from later medieval stuff) that in those warrior societies sheer strength was paramount (unless one was fat or clumsy but people were of course trained since an early age.) Sure, with some extraordinary speed or cunning is also mentioned and of course many heroes excel in almost every aspect. E.g. the epithet of Achilles is fast or fleet-footed although he is also the strongest and the best fighter.

Odysseus is not highlighted for strength before Troy (he is the most cunning of the Greeks and so beats the second strongest Greek, Aias, at the games for Achilles' weapons) but returning to Ithaca he is far stronger than all the suitors; none of them can draw his bow, so the skill to perform the ultra straight shot is not even an issue.

As I said, the style and writing of those books is quite terrible but the Drow sexism with females superpowerful evil priestesses and sorceresses and males subordinate despite badass fighters is a comparably well done fantastic inversion.

[matt b]

nvm

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Crowjack,

I am beginning to get the feel that Kote/Kvothe is an unreliable narrator. Kvothe is always either the spectacular success or dismal failure.

You're beginning to fear that? Kvothe has admitted he's lieing and omitting stuff several times in both books. He's explicitely an unreliable narrator.

[Andrew Gilfellon]

So, Faries and Nymphs are okay, but women being good or better fighters than men is just going too far?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

SR,

Ser Scot do you play a lot of poker? If you have the "best" hand at a poker table - it's called the Nuts. Good poker players know if they have the Nuts. If you have the Nuts then you will always win - the only variable is the amount you can extrace from your opponent - in this case you are never folding so a win by someone else at the table is just not going to happen.

I agree with Jo498 - two people of equal skill and training in a straight matchup then obviously physicality plays a part, now this is not to say a less strong opponent cannot beat a stronger one, through skill and training, hell even sheer luck probably won more than its fair share of Duels. Size/Strength isn't everything but in a physical contest it's pretty important. The slings/arrows thing comes back to the skill element - I think its generally accepted Goliath would have creamed David in a straight up fist fight! :)

But when you are playing poker winning a given hand is not the totality of the game. The point is that it is a test of wits to see if you can read the other opponents at the table not whether you get the best hand more frequently than everyone else.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

pg,

Technique is going to trump unskilled size and strength (to a certain point. Floyd Mayweather would never beat Tyson Fury in a fight). But if someone is equally or close-to-equally skilled, the bigger one has a huge advantage.

What your story really says to me is that the big strong wrestlers found that strength did trump skill and so they never needed to really learn it until they got to a point where they were just really vastly overmatched on the skill side.

This is usually true, but not when the person with better technique is drunk.

When I was in College my dad got a place at Edisto Beach for New Years. I brought several friends down and we had been drinking. One friend wrestled in High School and College. He got it in his head that he could take my 6'5" step brother who weighed (at that time) about 275. My friend wanting to prove his superior technique offered to start in the down position. My step brother just fell on him. My friend flayed for a three count got up and promptly vomited in the sand dunes behind the house.

We still laugh about that one.

:)

[SilentRoamer]

I was specifically reffering to 1vs1 or "heads up" situation, however taken into the context of a complete game that is a fair point.

Although I have beaten plenty of poor players just by sitting and playing pot odds - even then the context of a single game ends up being irrelevant and the statistics end up getting spread.

[Ronald The Second]

So, Faries and Nymphs are okay, but women being good or better fighters than men is just going too far?

That's oversimplification of the issue like I said we can't explain those things magic/fairies, but we can explain human anatomy physicality.

[SilentRoamer]

Now lets wait for all the rest of the Anecdotal evidence!

EDIT: Although I do love drunken fight stories that end with vomiting.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

SR,

I was specifically reffering to 1vs1 or "heads up" situation, however taken into the context of a complete game that is a fair point.

Although I have beaten plenty of poor players just by sitting and playing pot odds - even then the context of a single game ends up being irrelevant and the statistics end up getting spread.

I do see your point. I think that when two equally skilled fighters meet the stronger fighter has an advantage. I simply don't think that advantage is insurmountable. With the context of the Adem we are not talking about men always losing to women. We're talking about men being at a social disadvantage to women because of the culture of the Adem.

I'm curious to see if there is a textual basis for saying that where two equally skilled Adem warriors meet for a bout the female will always win? I don't think that is what Rothfuss says.

[Andrew Gilfellon]

So women being better fighters than men is just unrealistic?

It happens all the time. It's like saying it's unrealistic that a guy with the same IQ would do bad on a test when the other doesn't. Who cares that the women are better fighters. It can and does happen. Just because someone has the same training doesn't mean they're going to be as equal as the other. Maybe the Adem are just a culture who are female supportive, yeah.

[Andrew Gilfellon]

DOUBLE POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't find it unrealistic at all. What I find unrealistic is the narrator.

[Ronald The Second]

Basically it is at least strongly implied that women consistently superior to men, which just isn't realistic and don't give me that this is fantasy with fairies and magic I know and like I said we can't explain those things, but these are just human beings.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

RtS,

Basically it is at least strongly implied that women consistently superior to men, which just isn't realistic and don't give me that this is fantasy with fairies and magic I know and like I said we can't explain those things, but these are just human beings.

Again the context of the implication matters. Shehyn leads the school where Kvothe trained not because she is the best fighter. She leads it because she is seen as the wisest in the ways of the Lethani.

This is an unfamilier culture to us. One that is clearly Matriarchal. This colors your perceiption. You are assuming that in a "warrior culture" males would dominate because we tend to be physically stronger than females. That is an assumption predicated upon a belief that the Adem culture values fighting skill above all else.

I think that is where your assumption is incorrect. What is most valued in Adem culture is the philosopy set out in the Lethani. To their culture women seem to grasp the Lethani (in as much as it can be grasped) more readily than men and as such they have a more dominiant position in Ademre because fighting prowess is not seen as the most important skill set to have.

Does that make more sense?

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

There is so much stupid in the Adem culture and plot sidetrack that the fact their women are better fighters is somewhere around number 15 on the list of things to gripe about.

[Ronald The Second]

RtS,

Again the context of the implication matters. Shehyn leads the school where Kvothe trained not because she is the best fighter. She leads it because she is seen as the wisest in the ways of the Lethani.

This is an unfamilier culture to us. One that is clearly Matriarchal. This colors your perceiption. You are assuming that in a "warrior culture" males would dominate because we tend to be physically stronger than females. That is an assumption predicated upon a belief that the Adem culture values fighting skill above all else.

I think that is where your assumption is incorrect. What is most valued in Adem culture is the philosopy set out in the Lethani. To their culture women seem to grasp the Lethani (in as much as it can be grasped) more readily than men and as such they have a more dominiant position in Ademre because fighting prowess is not seen as the most important skill set to have.

Does that make more sense?

Thank You Ser Scott a very good post. I have no problem with the idea that the Adem women understand the lethani better than men but that still would not make them superior fighter it just would'nt.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Bearshin,

Could you please provide some textual evidence that females are seen as being "Better Fighters" in Ademre or is this implied because the leadership of Ademre appears to be female?

[Ronald The Second]

The book basically screams that women are superior fighter to men in every chapter with Adem in them.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

RtS,

But why? Because Kvothe's teachers are women? Because Shehyn leads the school? Those positions do not arrise solely because of fighting prowess. They are earned through skill with fighting and understanding of the Lethani. I see the latter as more important in Adem society, not the former. As such you may be misperceving Rothfuss' implications.

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Bearshin,

Could you please provide some textual evidence that females are seen as being "Better Fighters" in Ademre or is this implied because the leadership of Ademre appears to be female?

I could, but that would force me to read that book again.