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Will White Harbour only support a Northern King?


Dr Qyburn M.D

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I've never understood why people think the Northern Lords would betray Stannis after he rids the north of the Freys and Boltons.

Stannis went out of his way to come help the NIghts Watch when he hardly had any men or money. Now he is cleaning out the Iron Born and plans to defeat the Boltons.

I personally would definitely back Stannis after what he has done and is still doing for the north.

Even the Great Jon's complaint about Stannis was that he never did anything for the north.

You are aware of the entire "King in the North" stuff is based on the Northmen's racism for people from south of the Neck? When you build a foundation on racism, that racism will color everything you do, and suddenly making a 180 degree change to back a king from a people you've previously held to be unacceptable to rule over you isn't all that likely. But I could of course be wrong.

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You are aware of the entire "King in the North" stuff is based on the Northmen's racism for people from south of the Neck? When you build a foundation on racism, that racism will color everything you do, and suddenly making a 180 degree change to back a king from a people you've previously held to be unacceptable to rule over you isn't all that likely. But I could of course be wrong.

The Northernmen are not racist of the South, they just wanted to be separated away from them and their stupid struggle for that ugly chair.

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The Northernmen are not racist of the South, they just wanted to be separated away from them and their stupid struggle for that ugly chair.

Did they really?

300 years of being ruled by that ugly Throne and this is the first rebellion for 'independence'. Says a lot, especially as independence was not even their first goal. They just could not agree on which king from Joffrey, Tommen, Stannis and Renly to follow. In the end they went with the loudest (and probably the most inebriated) voice and let the Greatjon decide their fate.

This is not Braveheart, the people of the North have been okay with being ruled from Kings Landing for quite some time, just like the people of the Barrowlands, Dreadfort, Hornwood etc. have been okay with being ruled from Winterfell.

For a few months they were independent and suffered for it. I'm not sure why the majority of the North would fight for independence.

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White Harbour will support the Stark of WInterfell, whatever this Stark decides to do.

It is not Manderly's position to tell him what to do.

Agreed. Though I don't think its outside the realm of possibility that Manderly is playing Davos (and Stannis) at least somewhat falsely, at the end of the day, I have little doubt that he'll abide by whatever decision that the Stark in Winterfell makes in that regard. If that Stark chooses to follow Stannis as his king, Manderly will fall in line.

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The Northernmen are not racist of the South, they just wanted to be separated away from them and their stupid struggle for that ugly chair.

You're right in that its a bit of a stretch to say they are all racist, as well as blanket statement and we should all avoid such. But I can definietly see a great deal of regionalism, although they are of course not alone in doing so.

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Considering Lord Manderly is perfectly aware that Bran lives...

It's more about his own son anyway, Lord Wyman himself intends to die in Winterfell.

Are you agreeing with me there? (Genuine question, I wasn't sure)
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You are aware of the entire "King in the North" stuff is based on the Northmen's racism for people from south of the Neck? When you build a foundation on racism, that racism will color everything you do, and suddenly making a 180 degree change to back a king from a people you've previously held to be unacceptable to rule over you isn't all that likely. But I could of course be wrong.

I think it's more a somewhat justified alienation from the South in their ignorance of the North. Taking Ned away only to have him killed, then mass conflict between their own "kings". The Northern Rebellion was understandable.

I don't think that can be applied to Stannis, who for whatever reason has came to their aid vs the Boltons and Frey's. I think the North, from everything we've heard are primarily concerned with the destruction of those two houses. I think if Stannis offers that they have no reason not to back him.

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I think it's more a somewhat justified alienation from the South in their ignorance of the North. Taking Ned away only to have him killed, then mass conflict between their own "kings". The Northern Rebellion was understandable.

I don't think that can be applied to Stannis, who for whatever reason has came to their aid vs the Boltons and Frey's. I think the North, from everything we've heard are primarily concerned with the destruction of those two houses. I think if Stannis offers that they have no reason not to back him.

It isn't that they'll not help Stannis defeat the Boltons and the Freys. Its what they will do after that matters.

If they decide that Stannis has no further use for them, then they'll try to kill Stannis and his men and proclaim Rickon as the KitN.

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You are aware of the entire "King in the North" stuff is based on the Northmen's racism for people from south of the Neck? When you build a foundation on racism, that racism will color everything you do, and suddenly making a 180 degree change to back a king from a people you've previously held to be unacceptable to rule over you isn't all that likely. But I could of course be wrong.

Nationalism is the far better word. Furthermore, the alliance with the Riverlords (definitely south of the Neck!) doesn't fit your theory.

Are you agreeing with me there? (Genuine question, I wasn't sure)

Partially and sort of only. Manderly will of course pocket the advantages and smile. But it's only an afterthought. Loyalty to the Starks and revenge against the Lannisters are his two main motivations.

The problem with being Rickon's regent is that Bran is alive, has the bigger claim and is actually old and experienced enough to set the basic guidelines himself.

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Will all the Northern Lords who end up backing Stannis turn to the red god though??


I think this is going to be a big issue because nobody supports the red god in the north and we all know how Stannis/Mel treats people who dont switch gods. I think Stannis would let them keep to their own gods however if it became an issue because Winter is coming and he needs to take Winterfell soon, if that's even possible at this stage.


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I don't know that Manderly so much cares about which, if any, Stark comes back alive so much as he wants revenge against the Boltons and the Freys for murdering his son and sword swords. The only difference is that he seems to know where Rickon went, whereas the Mountain Clans last saw Bran heading to the Wall, but no one knows if her arrived there.

The Mountain Clans and Lord Manderly know that Bran is alive. The Liddle that Bran meets in the mountains, (who might even have been THE Liddle, as he did not reject Jojen calling him “lord”), recognizes Bran for who he is:

Jojen Reed stopped to catch his breath. “Do you think these mountain folk know we’re here?”
They know.” Bran had seen them watching; not with his own eyes, but with Summer’s sharper ones, that missed so little.
...

[The Liddle]“The Bastard’s boys, aye. He was dead, but now he’s not. And paying good silver for wolfskins, a man hears, and maybe gold for word of certain other walking dead.” He looked at Bran when he said that, and at Summer stretched out beside him.

Lord Manderly says that Wex Pyke “drew two boys…and two wolves.”

There's a way for Bran to return to Winterfell as well, Gorne's Way:

Men should not go wandering in this place,” Leaf warned them. “The river you hear is swift and black, and flows down and down to a sunless sea. And there are passages that go even deeper, bottomless pits and sudden shafts, forgotten ways that lead to the very center of the earth. Even my people have not explored them all, and we have lived here for a thousand thousand of your man-years.” -Bran, ADWD

“There are hundreds o’ caves in these hills and down deep they all connect. There’s even a way under your Wall. Gorne’s Way.”

“Gorne,” said Jon, “Gorne was King-beyond-the-Wall.”

“Aye,” said, Ygritte, “Together with his brother Gendel, three thousand years ago. They led o’ host of free folk through the caves…”

“Gendel did not die. He cut his way free, through the crows and led his people back north with the wolves howling at their heels. Only Gendel not know the Caves, as Gorne had, and took a wrong turn….Deeper and deeper he went, and when he tried t’ turn back the ways that seemed familiar ended in stone rather than sky…Gendel’s folk were never seen again.”-Jon, ASOS

It brings to mind a transcription of a wildling song in Maester Herryk’s History of the Kings-Beyond-the-Wall, regarding the brothers Gendel and Gorne. They were called upon to mediate a dispute between a clan of children and a family of giants over the possession of a cavern. Gendel and Gorne, it is said, ultimately resolved the matter through trickery, making both sides disavow any desire for the cavern, after the brothers discovered it was a part of a greater chain of caverns that eventually passed beneath the Wall.-The World of Ice and Fire

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Did they really?

300 years of being ruled by that ugly Throne and this is the first rebellion for 'independence'. Says a lot, especially as independence was not even their first goal. They just could not agree on which king from Joffrey, Tommen, Stannis and Renly to follow. In the end they went with the loudest (and probably the most inebriated) voice and let the Greatjon decide their fate.

This is not Braveheart, the people of the North have been okay with being ruled from Kings Landing for quite some time, just like the people of the Barrowlands, Dreadfort, Hornwood etc. have been okay with being ruled from Winterfell.

For a few months they were independent and suffered for it. I'm not sure why the majority of the North would fight for independence.

To the bolded they followed the house that has lead them for about 8000 years.

Honestly what would the North get with staying with the throne and house who murdered their men?

Westeros has not advanced enough at all that the North would suffer if they wanted to separate from the Iron Throne they only suffered for it because of the underhanded tricks that were given to them by monsters like the Lannisters, Boltons and Freys.

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Will all the Northern Lords who end up backing Stannis turn to the red god though??

I think this is going to be a big issue because nobody supports the red god in the north and we all know how Stannis/Mel treats people who dont switch gods. I think Stannis would let them keep to their own gods however if it became an issue because Winter is coming and he needs to take Winterfell soon, if that's even possible at this stage.

Of course not. I'd be surprised if a single one does.

As for your second paragraph, he makes them Hand of the King. Stannis doesn't care one whiff about religion.

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It isn't that they'll not help Stannis defeat the Boltons and the Freys. Its what they will do after that matters.

If they decide that Stannis has no further use for them, then they'll try to kill Stannis and his men and proclaim Rickon as the KitN.

Yes but if Stannis leads the charge against the Boltons/Freys then it would be a total scumbag move to then betray him immediately.

If the North truly does remember then they'll support Stannis if he helps defeat their enemies.

The only way they'll turn on him is if he offers pardons them.

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I think it's more a somewhat justified alienation from the South in their ignorance of the North. Taking Ned away only to have him killed, then mass conflict between their own "kings". The Northern Rebellion was understandable.

I don't think that can be applied to Stannis, who for whatever reason has came to their aid vs the Boltons and Frey's. I think the North, from everything we've heard are primarily concerned with the destruction of those two houses. I think if Stannis offers that they have no reason not to back him.

Nationalism is the far better word. Furthermore, the alliance with the Riverlords (definitely south of the Neck!) doesn't fit your theory.

Partially and sort of only. Manderly will of course pocket the advantages and smile. But it's only an afterthought. Loyalty to the Starks and revenge against the Lannisters are his two main motivations.

The problem with being Rickon's regent is that Bran is alive, has the bigger claim and is actually old and experienced enough to set the basic guidelines himself.

See my post before this one.

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  • 4 weeks later...

White harbor will only support a Stark,unless there are none left to support. One of the few houses out of westeros,


house Manderly has been the most loyal house to their leige lord, even more then the umbers. And that goes back


to when they were given white harbor. They owe everything they have to the starks. They fled the reach and were


given a castle,a wealthy port city and a place to establish themselves as an important lord and house of the north.


And the manderly's have never forgotten this. Then there's the fact that if there are no starks to support,that puts


the Manderly's as one if not the most powerful houses in the north,if the boltons are disposed of.

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White Harbour will support the Stark of WInterfell, whatever this Stark decides to do.

It is not Manderly's position to tell him what to do.

Yea I don't think he lied per say.He will support Stannis as are the Mormonts and most other northern houses but not as their King.As they all want revenge against the Lannisters and Boltons and on the way south a stop at the Twins.Ultimately though they are loyal to the Starks and if Stannis tries to do Stannis things.Like keep Rickon as his "ward" or arrange a marriage or something equally stupid then he's gonna have a problem.Not a single northerner is going to choose a stranger over a family they have served for 8000 years.
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I believe Wyman Manderly was entirely sincere. Remember, it was House Umber that declared Robb King in the North and they have now backed Stannis. Wyman only says he wants his leige lord back, not his king. Besides, if Davos goes and rescues Rickon and brings him back in Stannis' name. I sincerely doubt Rickon wouldn't support Stannis. The debate might be who gets to be Rickon's temporary regent. But I am almost certain that Wyman is sincere. Especially if Stannis promises revenge on the Freys.


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Ithin he told the truth as he seems to be a man of his word, considering his fierce loyalty to the Stark. He wants a Stark to rule the North, no necessarily as king. It didn't work out well last time. Also, Stannis can support his vengeance against the Freys.

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The Manderlys have a pretty strict and unwavering allegiance with the Starks. At least that's what it's looking like.



They have obviously supported other kings throughout history that were not necessarily Starks. However, I think that their allegiance with the Starks follows the Stark's allegiance with the crown.



Assuming the Stark family rebounds (and that might not necessarily be the case) and assuming a Stark doesn't sit the Iron throne (and a Stark probably won't) I think the Manderlys will still serve the crown under [insert king here] so long as the crown is friendly to the Starks.


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