Boarders Writing A Novel: Part 13

[Zoë Sumra]

Voodooqueen126, the only issue I ever have with diacritic marks in fantasy names is I'm never sure how to pronounce them. I've just got Bradley Beaulieu's Twelve Kings in Sharakhai. Lead character is called Çera. If the world background were French or Spanish, I'd know how to pronounce that, but the world is Arab, so I'm not quite sure...

I have so many different plot points that need to happen, with a bunch of different POVs, yet I'm having a hell of a time getting it to flow together well enough.

I've had success in the past, if POV characters have their own separate stories for part of the book, with writing one character's story, then the next etc., up to the point where they meet up, then going back to chronological writing when they are all together again. You could consider concentrating on one at once for a bit. You will need to go back and change a few little details in one POV based on another's experiences, but I find it less hassle overall.*

*Standard disclaimer that what works for me won't necessarily work for you.

[The Marquis de Leech]

 

Of course not. But if you feel you need to include characters with apostrophe-ridden, barely pronounceable monikers then go right ahead. Just don't ask me to read it.

 

Phew. I've only stuck to umlauts. ;)

[Zoë Sumra]

 
Phew. I've only stuck to umlauts. ;)

But are they to be pronounced as umlauts or diaereses? :p

[The Marquis de Leech]

But are they to be pronounced as umlauts or diaereses? :P

 

Umlauts. There's a scene where someone from another country tries to pronounce my protagonist's name, and gets it wrong. 

[Magnar of Skagos]

If you are writing fantasy novel, are you obliged to include invented names? How would you feel reading fantasy novel about George and Louise?

The way GRRM uses similar style names in ASOIAF works quite well and doesn't take you out of the story (for example Jamie, Ned, Robert) but if you named your characters like Brad or Kyle, it wouldn't feel fantasy-y. To me, at least.

[The Marquis de Leech]

The way GRRM uses similar style names in ASOIAF works quite well and doesn't take you out of the story (for example Jamie, Ned, Robert) but if you named your characters like Brad or Kyle, it wouldn't feel fantasy-y. To me, at least.

 

I actually dislike Martin's names. They play into the notion that Westeros is simply a rehash of our own timeline.

[C.T. Phipps]

As far as fantasy goes, I think you can have names that are exotic extravagant, or down to earth names that you might find in our own history and have either work. The main thing is to make sure that they make sense and are consistent within the regional or cultural subset of your larger fantasy world. In other words make sure you don't have a character named James with a brother named Gleezbadorn.

 

Also, I'd avoid fantasy name generators at all cost.

 

I think names should be exotic at times but never unpronounceable or hard to remember.

 

I name a city Kerifas but generally go with names like Regina, Jacob, and so on for my fantasy novels.

[First of My Name]

I try to use made-up names that don't sound too weird. Arva and Litan, for example. There's one Gabriel. Personally I've never liked names like overly complicated names with accents and stuff randomly thrown in between letters. I want to be able to pronounce it.

[voodooqueen126]

Voodooqueen126, the only issue I ever have with diacritic marks in fantasy names is I'm never sure how to pronounce them. I've just got Bradley Beaulieu's Twelve Kings in Sharakhai. Lead character is called Çera. If the world background were French or Spanish, I'd know how to pronounce that, but the world is Arab, so I'm not quite sure...

I've had success in the past, if POV characters have their own separate stories for part of the book, with writing one character's story, then the next etc., up to the point where they meet up, then going back to chronological writing when they are all together again. You could consider concentrating on one at once for a bit. You will need to go back and change a few little details in one POV based on another's experiences, but I find it less hassle overall.*

*Standard disclaimer that what works for me won't necessarily work for you.

Ç tends to be Turkish, but then there is more than one dialect of Arabic...

Since mine is AU and Punic was a Phoenician language the š is shiin, though North Africans, because of the french influence often translates that letter as ch.

[Aniel]

Personally I prefer completely inventing new names but then I'm also inventing a language, so it makes sense to have fantastical names. If the setting is pseudo-historical or something like alternate universe Earth then I don't mind real names so long as they fit the setting. It really isn't that hard to come up with names that don't go Glaxbarong or Ryüfi'quésha. Occasionally I find real names and change the spelling/take one element from them and make a new one. Male names are harder though, for me. I feel like I overuse some letters when making them up.

 

When it comes to names being hard to remember or unpronounceable it depends on the person reading it really. I've yet to encounter a name I couldn't immediately come up with a pronunciation for, whether it's accurate or not (stupid Irish and Welsh, being so wonderfully complicated), while my SO almost constantly forgets names and/or occasionally throws some letters around when pronouncing them. And he doesn't have dyslexia. I have noticed others from English-speaking countries doing the same thing though so maybe it's an English thing  :dunno:

I can't remember exactly what he does when he throws letters around, but it's something to the effect of pronouncing stuff "Deh-ner-i-ys", inserting a random vowel somewhere (though he's never actually mispronounced Daenerys, it's just an example).

 

When it comes to diacritics I generally go with ones I'm familiar with, like the diaeresis and apostrophe, and less commonly ´ ` ^ and the cedilla on C's. If I need a sound like that of Ž then I've got letter combinations like ZH covering that in my language. ZH, SH, CH etc. all are their own letters too, so if I have a word where H follows Z without being part of the combination then it's written with the letters for Z and H respectively... It shall be the bane of anyone reading it transliterated into the latin alphabet  :laugh: Or any other in-universe alphabet for that matter. So far I've only got the one. I need... 5. And yes, I'm probably biting off more than I can chew.

 

I really only need 3... The one I'm talking about right now, the one derived from it (and then only to highlight the differences, even if only for myself), and one for the second most-spoken language. The last two can wait until I'm done with the series, if I still have the energy for it then.

 

I love languages if you guys haven't noticed :) One day I'm going to actually study linguistics and pick up a third language, but life currently doesn't permit me to.

[Aniel]

Edit: DP... should've checked the next page...

[Selysin]

If you are going to make up crazy fantasy names phonetic spelling is your friend, chances are people will still pronounce it wrong but as long as it's mutually intelligible most people won't care.

 

I've borrowed heavily from Yoruba for one world (Iranti, Ajedu), made up names for a second (Damericus, Elone) and just used normal names for a third (Bartholomew, Nikola) and even the second has names that are completely normal (Grace, Callie). The third is urban fantasy so it's possibly not a good indicator of fantasy names in general but it does borrow from mythology for some of the non-human characters.

 

Or you could just go crazy with the proper names and give everyone normal sounding nicknames. The only time you ever hear some of my characters' names is when they're in trouble. Bartholomew only appears a dozen times across three books because he prefers to go by Mitch and Callie's name is actually Calleen.

 

Like a lot of elements of fantasy internal consistency seems to be more important than logic. 

[Myrddin]

If your naming convention requires the reader to be fluent in multiple foreign language pronunciation structures, then you may want to consider simplifying your naming convention. 

 

I'm all for cultural and historical diversity and broadening minds, but if the average reader struggles to even pronounce character names in their heads, you'll limit your readership. Why make it harder to find reader than it already is?

 

Just a thought.

[Aniel]

If you are going to make up crazy fantasy names phonetic spelling is your friend, chances are people will still pronounce it wrong but as long as it's mutually intelligible most people won't care.

 

I've borrowed heavily from Yoruba for one world (Iranti, Ajedu), made up names for a second (Damericus, Elone) and just used normal names for a third (Bartholomew, Nikola) and even the second has names that are completely normal (Grace, Callie). The third is urban fantasy so it's possibly not a good indicator of fantasy names in general but it does borrow from mythology for some of the non-human characters.

 

Or you could just go crazy with the proper names and give everyone normal sounding nicknames. The only time you ever hear some of my characters' names is when they're in trouble. Bartholomew only appears a dozen times across three books because he prefers to go by Mitch and Callie's name is actually Calleen.

 

Like a lot of elements of fantasy internal consistency seems to be more important than logic. 

 

 

If your naming convention requires the reader to be fluent in multiple foreign language pronunciation structures, then you may want to consider simplifying your naming convention. 

 

I'm all for cultural and historical diversity and broadening minds, but if the average reader struggles to even pronounce character names in their heads, you'll limit your readership. Why make it harder to find reader than it already is?

 

Just a thought.

 

The reader will generally find a way to pronounce the name the way that makes the most sense to them, I believe. Like Selysin said, phonetic spelling is your friend. Granted, depending on the language the reader speaks or reads the book in they might pronounce it differently than you would.

 

I have a customer with a 15-letter long surname here... This one's fairly straightforward, but I've seen a couple more with letters that just don't follow each other in any of the languages I'm even vaguely familiar with. I think that's the part that will trip most people up, if you have letters that don't "naturally" follow each other. And if you use unusual diacritics.

[Jacques the Japer]

Whats this forums opinion on using real world approximations for fantasy world languages and culture

 

A big part of my novels sees the action take place on what is the southern half of the continent, which s basically a mash up of Greece Italy and spain, complete with names that people from those countries would recognise

 

Further north the inspirations are more clearly Germanic, and Slavic,Celtic ect

 

The historical law details an empire that came from the south, with clear references to what historians might recognise as the west African kingdoms (Ghana, Mali, Kanem Bornu ect)

 

In the east there a dry expanse of steppe where tribes of horseman regulary come raiding from

 

 While it works out well im afraid people might think im simply ripping off real world Europe and its surrounds (The level of magic in my world is also very limited, you wont find wizards or mages in anything else but legends or the superstitious beliefs of the main characters)

[matt b]

Whats this forums opinion on using real world approximations for fantasy world languages and culture

 

I think the vast majority of fantasy writers do this to a greater or lesser extent. I'm fine with it and actually rather enjoy trying to figure what real world cultures may have inspired my favorite fantasy cultures.

[HexMachina]

Whats this forums opinion on using real world approximations for fantasy world languages and culture
 
A big part of my novels sees the action take place on what is the southern half of the continent, which s basically a mash up of Greece Italy and spain, complete with names that people from those countries would recognise
 
Further north the inspirations are more clearly Germanic, and Slavic,Celtic ect
 
The historical law details an empire that came from the south, with clear references to what historians might recognise as the west African kingdoms (Ghana, Mali, Kanem Bornu ect)
 
In the east there a dry expanse of steppe where tribes of horseman regulary come raiding from
 
 While it works out well im afraid people might think im simply ripping off real world Europe and its surrounds (The level of magic in my world is also very limited, you wont find wizards or mages in anything else but legends or the superstitious beliefs of the main characters)

Guy Gavriel Kay's Lions of Al-Rassan is very good and takes a similar approach so it shouldn't be too much of an issue really.

[Magnar of Skagos]

 

I think the vast majority of fantasy writers do this to a greater or lesser extent. I'm fine with it and actually rather enjoy trying to figure what real world cultures may have inspired my favorite fantasy cultures.

I do as well.

 

 

Whats this forums opinion on using real world approximations for fantasy world languages and culture

 

A big part of my novels sees the action take place on what is the southern half of the continent, which s basically a mash up of Greece Italy and spain, complete with names that people from those countries would recognise

 

Further north the inspirations are more clearly Germanic, and Slavic,Celtic ect

 

The historical law details an empire that came from the south, with clear references to what historians might recognise as the west African kingdoms (Ghana, Mali, Kanem Bornu ect)

 

In the east there a dry expanse of steppe where tribes of horseman regulary come raiding from

 

 While it works out well im afraid people might think im simply ripping off real world Europe and its surrounds (The level of magic in my world is also very limited, you wont find wizards or mages in anything else but legends or the superstitious beliefs of the main characters)

Just make sure your fantasy culture's aren't exact carbon copies of real-world cultures. Take a few interesting facts about one culture and conjure up the rest out of your own imagination. Look at some historical events about, Greece, for example, and think to yourself what would happen if some of these events didn't happen at all, or happened in different orders, etc. For example what if the Romans/Italians were viking-like sea raiders and what if the Scandinavians developed some sort of immense Roman-like empire, or erected monuments like the pyramids for their fallen kings? Stuff like that. Swap different things back and forth between cultures, and see what interesting things you can come up with.

[Jacques the Japer]

Thanks for the advice Mat, Machina and Blackfyre,

 

Im a huge fan of history, have been since childhood, and ive found that for any inspiration you just need to look at the multitude of amazing stories our own past has conjured up. My first plan was too write a historical fiction, but I decided against it, because id have t twist too many historical facts around my plotline, so I decided to ditch the concept entirely and just write it as a fantasy, so instead of having to plod through mounds of research to satisfy my perfectionist streak I could simply have the story I wanted and craft my own world around it.

 

What's your take on  the non existence of magic in a universe?

By that I mean no councils of wizards, or mages or an abundance of supernatural creatures, basically a world with physics much like ours, where magic only exists in legends and in the superstitious minds of my characters?

 

GRRM did want to go for this it seems, but we still have dragons and prophesies and Ice Zombies behind a magical wall which gets attacked by armies with giants every time there's a never-ending winter.

 

My themes aren't that much different from many other authors otherwise, Wealth and poverty, religion,morality and rationality. The effects of war on peoples lives , and mainly the way actions of individuals can impact the lives of others far away in unintended ways.

Only its set in a fictional universe with roughly Renaissance era technology.

[First of My Name]

What's your take on  the non existence of magic in a universe?
By that I mean no councils of wizards, or mages or an abundance of supernatural creatures, basically a world with physics much like ours, where magic only exists in legends and in the superstitious minds of my characters?

Setting-wise, I'm going for the same thing. It's fantasy (made-up world with a mix of historical and modern things) but no magic whatsoever. So my take on it is that I support it :P I wouldn't mind reading more of it either. It can be a refreshing change of pace. You still need to differentiate it from Earth though, otherwise there's no point in using a fictional universe as the setting.