Pilusmagnus Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Hey there,I wanted to begin a new epic fantasy series, and since I'm currently in England (I am French originally), I figured the best way to do that would be to enter a bookshop and look around.In the first bookshop, after looking at a few of the books, I elected three potential series while remembering the things I've read about them on this board: The Wheel of Time, The Dagger and the Coin, and Malazan Book of the Fallen.The first one I dismissed because the volumes were not available in paperback/small version (not sure how you call that in English) and since I didn't have money on my person at the time, I planned to go back the next day to buy either of the remaining two. I actually came back in another bookshop, and this time they didn't have The Dagger and the Coin. So I bought Gardens of the Moon, and tried to start reading it. I've read chapter one. I have never experienced a more painful reading in my entire life. It's not that it's bad, it's that I have to concentrate more than when I'm writing an essay to understand what's going on. And I don't even understand all of it. Who is the Emperor? Why do the dates not match? What are these characters inserting themselves randomly into the narrative? Where are they? Why are the locations not on the maps? What are these poems? So I'm starting to wonder whether I should have bought The Dagger and the Coin instead. Do you have to be a very trained reader to read through Malazan? Or is it just the beginning that's boring? Compared to ASOIAF, which I read without needing to concentrate very much, how complicated is it? How long should I read it before I decide if I like it or not? Because, if the other chapters are similar, I'm not sure I will be able to reach page 100 before getting a brain cancer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I didn't find it all that difficult, but an awful lot of people over the years have complained about the same thing with the Malazan. It gets somewhat less confusing later on, but it's still a lot more confusing for various reasons than most other series. As for the poems, everyone I know just skips them. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilusmagnus Posted June 10, 2015 Author Share Posted June 10, 2015 I didn't find it all that difficult, but an awful lot of people over the years have complained about the same thing with the Malazan. It gets somewhat less confusing later on, but it's still a lot more confusing for various reasons than most other series. But are you a trained reader? Do you usually read very complicated stuff more easily than most? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spockydog Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 What is a trained reader? Is not learning to read 'training'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRevanchist Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I am scared to start reading Malazan. Everybody say that it is difficult.So far - on fantasy genre - I've read ASOIAF, Wheel of Time, LOTR, Black Company, Mistborn, The First Law, The Kingskiller Chronicles, The Broken Empire, The Shattered Sea, Tigana, Raven's Shadow and many other sci-fi books, but still not comfortable on reading Malazan. In a year or two when I finish all other fantasy books I have in to read list I'll inevitably start reading Malazan. From what people say, it is worth it to read, although it is a very difficult reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilusmagnus Posted June 10, 2015 Author Share Posted June 10, 2015 It's definitely a lot more complicated than ASoIaF. TMBotF is a commitment, and it can be kind of mentally exhausting to read due to Erikson's way of dropping you into the action without explaining what's going on. The series was originally created as a table top game, so a lot of the world building most authors do during the writing process isn't there. For example, I'm several books in and I still don't know what the hell warrens are. I had trouble getting into it as well, but once you get through the first book it's a lot easier. What really did the trick for me was audiobooks. I'd listen to them while driving and it took a lot less mental energy to get into the story. Once you get over that hump you will absolutely love The Malazan Book of the Fallen. I actually think Erikson is better than GRRM as a wordsmith and prose writer (though Martin is better at character/world building, and overall probably a better storyteller). I've even come to like the poems. Coltaine leads a chain of dogs, gives me chills every time I hear it. Thank you. This gives me more indications as to how to take this work on. You convinced me to not sell my book back, but right now reading the first chapter has exhausted my brain so much I can't even read some Neil Gaiman. What is a trained reader? Is not learning to read 'training'? I don't think you can teach an analphabete how to read and then immediatly give him Being and Nothingness. A trained reader is someone who has a great capacity of concentration, and who is used to reading complex and complicated things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Well, in fairness I gave up on the Malazan because the last few books bore me to tears. The first 5 were great though. As for how "trained' I am as a reader - not sure. It's not like I constantly read Joyce and Faulkner's most challenging books for fun, far from it, but I enjoy this kind of stuff once in a while. The Malazan can be exhausting at times, but once you get a grip on the world (after 100-200 pages), it's not that hard IMO, unless you really try to remember all the worldbuilding details and ancient history which are thrown at you quite often, which is really not necessary for enjoyment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolivar Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I've read chapter one. I have never experienced a more painful reading in my entire life. It's not that it's bad, it's that I have to concentrate more than when I'm writing an essay to understand what's going on. And I don't even understand all of it. Who is the Emperor? Why do the dates not match? What are these characters inserting themselves randomly into the narrative? Where are they? Why are the locations not on the maps? What are these poems? The secret to reading the Malazan books is that none of that stuff actually matters. Erikson uses redundant world building to immerse his readers and convince them that "the tale exists beyond the telling." There's a passage in Gardens of the Moon when you first meet Toc the Younger and he shares some words of wisdom with Ganoes Paran. He's actually breaking the fourth wall and advising the reader not to worry about all the details in the background, just focus on what's going on in front of you and enjoy the ride. You'll be glad you did.Epic fantasy series suffer from the fact that so much of the author's time is committed introducing a new world or laboriously building up to a payoff. Almost every cycle has boring travelogue middle books, which diehard fans actually defend because the author has to "move the pieces." Erikson creates a story where you couldn't possibly inventory every detail of the world even if you wanted to and constantly rotates in new characters to tell a self-contained story every time. Malazan is intentionally designed so you can just enjoy the writing and the journey that takes place within each book.I like The Dagger and the Coin but it's not as ambitious as Malazan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilusmagnus Posted June 10, 2015 Author Share Posted June 10, 2015 So for example, the information that I have right now in my head is this: Genoes Paran is a noble officer. The agent of the Empress asks him to go to a village to investigate about two people who went missing in a village where everyone else was killed by big wolves. He goes and see that said village is deserted. So they go to the Empress's palace through a dimensional warp and he meets his sister there. Did I get it right? Is that sufficient information to continue reading? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrum Aeternum Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 The secret to reading the Malazan books is that none of that stuff actually matters. Erikson uses redundant world building to immerse his readers and convince them that "the tale exists beyond the telling." There's a passage in Gardens of the Moon when you first meet Toc the Younger and he shares some words of wisdom with Ganoes Paran. He's actually breaking the fourth wall and advising the reader not to worry about all the details in the background, just focus on what's going on in front of you and enjoy the ride. Agree with this - once I stopped trying to keep up with every little detail I was able to understand and follow things more closely. What broke me after only 4 books though was lack of emotional investment in the characters. While Erikson went to great lengths to ensure that his world was deep and complex, the main characters often did not get similar treatment. It was easy to get characters mixed up because so many of them had such similar narratives (Karsa was a welcome deviation from this pattern, but by that point I had mostly stopped caring). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
End of Disc One Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I enjoyed reading it slowly and trying to piece together what was going on. I'm currently doing the same with Caine's Law, and loving it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Blacktower Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I made it through the first 3 books in the series before deciding that the poor editing was just too much for me. Books weighing in at more than a thousand pages and lack of coherent world building just are too much. Dagger and Coin is a much better choice, as would anything from Joe Abercrombie, Brent Weeks, Peter V. Brett, Scott Lynch, or Patrick Rothfuss (although some are getting tired of waiting for book 3). There is a lot of great fantasy out there right now, and there is no need to slog through something where the author seems abdicates responsibility for actually explaining the world. Just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 But are you a trained reader? Do you usually read very complicated stuff more easily than most?I am by no means a trained reader nor Academia. And, I found if that you don't try and memorize every single name and place, warren, and god, and just let the book take you where it does- you'll be OK! Yes its a tad bit confusing at first, but it all falls into place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigima Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I really hated Gardens of the Moon, and after trying unsuccessfully three times to slog through it, I gave up. I think it is absolute dogshit. I am told that if you can struggle through the first book it improves. I am not personally willing to sacrifice that much effort on a maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilusmagnus Posted June 10, 2015 Author Share Posted June 10, 2015 One huge pet peeve of mine is when people take a series that's in a style they don't like and respond by declaring it poor quality, rather than simply not for them. Completely agree on that. Although you could understand why people might wish to get angry at something that they paid 9 pounds for. Anyway, thanks for your advice everyone, I'll tell you how I manage it (or not) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I've seen people argue in favour of skipping Gardens of the Moon altogether and jumping into Deadhouse Gates (which is unquestionably better). Personally, I'd stick with Gardens, for now: as others have said, it's a world and story that have to be picked up by immersion. Each book functions both by itself, and as part of a wider whole, so you don't have to read them all to get pay-off. I myself read the first five (loving Memories of Ice and Midnight Tides, enjoying Deadhouse Gates, tolerating Gardens of the Moon, and disliking House of Chains). I still have The Bonehunters sitting on my shelf - that one defeated me. I might try again in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilusmagnus Posted June 10, 2015 Author Share Posted June 10, 2015 The first chapter has violated my brain so much I can't read any of it anymore. I just can't. I think I'll just buy Dagger and Coin anyway, and read it in the two-weeks timelapse needed for me to recover between two chapters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilbur Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Pilusmagnus, try using the Tor re-read and commentary along with your reading - here is the first chapter. http://www.tor.com/2010/07/07/the-malazan-re-read-of-the-fallen-gardens-of-the-moon-part-1/ I found that my enjoyment of TMBOTF was greatly enhanced by having the views of other readers to compare with my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I think the trick to reading Malazan is not to analyze every little thing - it's not Gene Wolfe with secrets behind every word like that - but just to roll with it, accept that not everything is explained straight away, enjoy the adventure and catch the clues as they come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfram Posted June 10, 2015 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I found GotM better on a re-read, largely because on the first read it was a pain to follow what was going on. Subsequent books were better, maybe in part because I was more familiar with the world but probably also because they were bettter written. Though I didn't really like the last books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.