Did Lysa take her moon tea after she was married?

[stateofdissipation]

Lord Hoster groaned. "Dead," his hand groped for hers. " You'll have others... sweetbabes and trueborn"

"Forgive me" he said so softly she could scarcely hear the words. "Tansy.... blood... the blood... gods be kind..."

aSoS Catelyn I

Hoster was rambling and Catelyn could not make any sense of it. She is under the impression that "tansy" is a person.

We learn later what the "tansy" Hoster was referring to was.

I would have given you a son too but they murdered him with moon tea, with tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey and a drop of pennyroyal.---Lysa to Littlefinger.

aSoS Sansa VII

Catelyn comes to believe that Hoster attempting to comfort Lysa after a miscarriage. She attempts to figure out when it might have happened:

Lysa had miscarried five times, twice in the Eyrie, thrice in King's Landing... but never at Riverrun where Lord Hoster had been there to comfort her. Never, unless... unless she was with child that first time... aSoS Catelyn I

She explains the first time:

"She and her sister had been married on the same day, and left in their father’s care when their new husbands had ridden off to rejoin Robert’s rebellion. Afterward, when their moon blood did not come at the accustomed time, Lysa had gushed happily of the sons she was certain they carried. “Your son will be heir to Winterfell and mine to the Eyrie. Oh, they’ll be the best of friends, like your Ned and Lord Robert. They’ll be more brothers than cousins, truly, I just know it.” She was so happy.

But Lysa’s blood had come not long after, and all the joy had gone out of her. Catelyn had always thought that Lysa had simply been a little late, but if she had been with child . . ." -ASoS Catelyn I

Hoster and Lysa's descriptions seem to indicate a late term abortion.

Catelyn noted that when Lysa's blood came "all joy left her." That would be a severe reaction to a false pregnancy and a reasonable reaction to a forced late term abortion.

Catelyn's date makes sense with the given information.

---still under the heading of moon tea after marriage

Given that Lysa keeps the recipe for moon tea in her head, is it completely unreasonable to assume that Lysa actively caused her miscarriages?

[Bloodmane]

I don't think that westerosi women made their own moon tea. From the text it seems that either a maester or a witch provided it (Sybell Spicer probably leart the art from her mother). Even if some made their own tea it seems unlikely that the teenager Lysa was among them, so she would not remember the recipe. Also I am not sure that the moon tea functions as pro-abortive and not just anticoncipient.

[stateofdissipation]

I don't think that westerosi women made their own moon tea. From the text it seems that either a maester or a witch provided it (Sybell Spicer probably leart the art from her mother). Even if some made their own tea it seems unlikely that the teenager Lysa was among them, so she would not remember the recipe. Also I am not sure that the moon tea functions as pro-abortive and not just anticoncipient.

Lysa carries the recipe for moon tea in her head. "I would have given you a son too but they murdered him with moon tea, with tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey and a drop of pennyroyal."---Lysa to Littlefinger. aSoS Sansa VII--Not claiming Lysa was a normal woman in Westeros... or sane for that matter.

I would agree that pre-marriage Lysa would not have had the recipe. Post-marriage Lysa (moon tea recipe lady) had five miscarriages, twice in the Eyrie and thrice in King's Landing. It is not a stretch to include the possibility that Lysa took her concoction to induce some if not all of her miscarriages.

According to Lysa, Hoster used moon tea to murder her son other than that moon tea seems to be a contraceptive rather than an abortion mix.

[A Bastard Snow]

I thought the moontea damaged her ability to carry a child which is why sweetrobin is so weak.Then again Jon did have one wife die in childbirth and another die childless so who knows.

Also in large doses I believe moontea does cause you too lose your child

[TimJames]

Lysa has no motive for taking moon tea. It is shown in the books that she very desperately wants children (she starts sobbing uncontrollably when Catelyn shows her Baby Robb). When she does get a child, she coddles it to the point where Sweetrobin still breastfeeds.

[stateofdissipation]

I thought the moontea damaged her ability to carry a child which is why sweetrobin is so weak.Then again Jon did have one wife die in childbirth and another die childless so who knows.

Also in large doses I believe moontea does cause you too lose your child

The conclusion that the moon tea damaged Lysa's ability to have children can easily be reached from five miscarriages followed by a sickly child.

I tended to think the same thing until aSoS Sansa VII when Lysa recites the recipe of moon tea. That does bring to mind the possibility that moon tea played a role in her miscarriages... and not necessarily damage from the first time she drank it.

[stateofdissipation]

Lysa has no motive for taking moon tea. It is shown in the books that she very desperately wants children (she starts sobbing uncontrollably when Catelyn shows her Baby Robb). When she does get a child, she coddles it to the point where Sweetrobin still breastfeeds.

It is shown that she knows the recipe for moon tea. ---

moon tea, with tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey and a drop of pennyroyal.---Lysa to Littlefinger.--aSoS Sansa VII

She also claims to not have known what was in it when Hoster made her drink it.

Between getting rid of Littlefinger's son and fleeing to the Eyrie with Sweetrobin-- Lysa picked up the recipe. If she had no motive for taking moon tea, she had less motive for memorizing the recipe... but she did it.

[idio]

Lysa has no motive for taking moon tea. It is shown in the books that she very desperately wants children (she starts sobbing uncontrollably when Catelyn shows her Baby Robb). When she does get a child, she coddles it to the point where Sweetrobin still breastfeeds.

She has been carrying a torch for Littlefinger this entire time, and thinks it likely enough and wants it enough that she murdered Jon Aryn, the Hand of the King.

I think an argument could be made that she was holding out hope to have a child with Littlefinger.

[Cladinator]

From the Wiki:

Moon tea

Moon tea is a type of herbal tea that is used in the Seven Kingdoms as well as beyond the Wall to prevent or abort pregnancies. It is made generally by maesters and wise women out of the flower tansy, mint, wormwood, a spoon of honey, and a drop of pennyroyal.^[1][2]

Lady Smallwood also referred to it as tansy tea and indicated that milkmaids across the riverlands had been left drinking it thanks to Tom of Sevenstreams.^[3]

See Also

• Medicine
  

References and Notes

• Moon tea is based on a real natural abortifactants [1]
  

1. ↑ A Storm of Swords, Chapter 80, Sansa VII.
   
2. ↑ A Storm of Swords, Chapter 15, Jon II.
   
3. ↑ A Storm of Swords, Chapter 22, Arya IV.
   

It is used to terminate active pregnancies (as well as prevent). I've always suspected as much from the text.

I never thought that Lysa was terminating all her pregnancies like that but this actually makes me think a little.

I always assumed that she was the type of character that wanted many children even if she wasn't thrilled to be married to Jon Arryn. The place of power that it places her and her children seemed important to her. I always thought that the fact that she had one weakling child was just her dumb luck. Maybe not.

[A Bastard Snow]

The conclusion that the moon tea damaged Lysa's ability to have children can easily be reached from five miscarriages followed by a sickly child.

I tended to think the same thing until aSoS Sansa VII when Lysa recites the recipe of moon tea. That does bring to mind the possibility that moon tea played a role in her miscarriages... and not necessarily damage from the first time she drank it.

True It's hard to tell though considering how obsessed she is with Sweetrobin

[Light a wight tonight]

Another possible solid explanation of Lysa's inability to carry a pregnancy to term is that Jon Arryn's seed is not strong. He hadn't been able to father a child by his first wife, either.

[Ser Leftwich]

Maybe. What difference does it make going forward in the story?

For that matter, what difference does it make going back in the story?

[Light a wight tonight]

Maybe. What difference does it make going forward in the story?

For that matter, what difference does it make going back in the story?

True, but less important points get debated here. Which knights, dead generations before the time of the story and not contemporaries, were better fighters, for instance.

[Ser Leftwich]

True, but less important points get debated here. Which knights, dead generations before the time of the story and not contemporaries, were better fighters, for instance.

There was a previous discussion about this theory in Small Questions. The short version of which was Hoster got LF to get Lysa pregnant, because a few months later there would be the Robellion and Jon Arryn would need a 'wife known to be fertile' and then only AFTER Jon and Lysa got married did Hoster force the abortion on Lysa. Which makes no sense.

[Megaera]

Tansy was used in the middle ages as an abortificant, and it can also cause convulsions and brain and liver damage...

[stateofdissipation]

Maybe. What difference does it make going forward in the story?

For that matter, what difference does it make going back in the story?

If Cat was right about the timing of Hoster comforting Lysa. Lysa was visibly pregnant when she married Jon Arryn.

Rather than covering up Lysa's pregnancy, Hoster displayed it to Jon Arryn.

Jon Arryn had two wives before that did not have children. He was older than Hoster. If he wanted to produce an heir, he needed a young wife proven to be fertile.--Yes he had nephews until the battle of the bells-- However there was plenty of time to get rid of Lysa's bastard before the battle.

At a minimum Hoster, foster father of Littlefinger, allowed his daughter to carry a child for months to prove her fertile for Jon Arryn.

At a maximum. Lysa's pregnancy by Littlefinger was not an accident.

At the maximum, house Tully, Stark, Baratheon, and Arryn were set to be bound by marriage pre-rebellion. The rebellion was set before it had a cause.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

If Cat was right about the timing of Hoster comforting Lysa. Lysa was visibly pregnant when she married Jon Arryn.

Rather than covering up Lysa's pregnancy, Hoster displayed it to Jon Arryn.

Jon Arryn had two wives before that did not have children. He was older than Hoster. If he wanted to produce an heir, he needed a young wife proven to be fertile.--Yes he had nephews until the battle of the bells-- However there was plenty of time to get rid of Lysa's bastard before the battle.

At a minimum Hoster, foster father of Littlefinger, allowed his daughter to carry a child for months to prove her fertile for Jon Arryn.

At a maximum. Lysa's pregnancy by Littlefinger was not an accident.

At the maximum, house Tully, Stark, Baratheon, and Arryn were set to be bound by marriage pre-rebellion. The rebellion was set before it had a cause.

But why would he do that? Jon Arryn had no need of a new wife until his last heir died... Which was quite shortly before his marriage to Lysa...

[Ser Leftwich]

But why would he do that? Jon Arryn had no need of a new wife until his last heir died... Which was quite shortly before his marriage to Lysa...

For that matter, Lysa would have been pregnant by LF before Elbert Arryn died, not just Denys.

This makes no sense.

[Megaera]

As far as Catelyn was aware, the first time Lysa was (possibly) pregnant was at the same time she was pregnant with Robb. The tansy story makes her think that Lysa wasn't late on her period, but actually pregnant and then miscarried.

We, the reader, know that there was an earlier pregnancy and that the father was littlefinger. AFAIK catelyn had no idea that Lysa and LF had ever gone beyond kissing games.

[stateofdissipation]

There was a previous discussion about this theory in Small Questions. The short version of which was Hoster got LF to get Lysa pregnant, because a few months later there would be the Robellion and Jon Arryn would need a 'wife known to be fertile' and then only AFTER Jon and Lysa got married did Hoster force the abortion on Lysa. Which makes no sense.

Hoster banished his brother for refusing to marry a Redwyne. Cat was set to marry the Heir to Winterfell.

Hoster attempted to broker a marriage between Lysa and Jamie when Jamie was Tywin's heir. Robert had his marriage arranged to Stark so he was off the table --The list of available great Lords or their heirs was pretty short.... Jon Arryn.

Jon Arrym had married twice before with both wives leaving him childless. He was an old man, older than Hoster. He needed a young wife proven to be fertile if he hoped to produce an heir.

That was the situation when Littlefinger and Lysa had sex. When Lysa told Hoster she was pregnant, Littlefinger was sent away.

Cat's figured that Hoster comforted Lysa when she lost a child following her marriage: We know that Hoster was comforting Lysa over the abortion of Littlefinger's son.

IF Cat was right, Lysa's pregnancy was not an accident. That would put Hoster on the worst parent in Westeros list.