Crack pot theory: R + L = J + A?

[rivers snow]

Had a look about the forum, apologies if this has been asked already or covered!

While I personally don't think that Jon is actually dead, I've been wondering how GRRM would cover the emotional/heroic space he leaves behind if he is gone and not leave his mother's identity a red herring. So here is my random theory: is it possible that Jon Snow and "Fake Aegon" are/were the twin sons of Rhaegar and Lyanna?

If Ned were to have found Lyanna with twins, taken Jon back to Winterfell, and deposited "Fake Aegon" with Ashara Dayne at Starfall (this would tie to Ashara being Lemore). One twin would have taken the Starkish look and the other the Targaryan features. Might help explain Ned's sympathy for the Targaryan refugees in exile in Essos (yeah, that he was a decent human being is a more likely explanation!).

An eventual Howland Reed or Lemore reveal of this scenario would introduce another heroic Stark to the mix and keep the central mystery of the series meaningful despite a Jon Snow death.

Is this remotely plausible or do the ages of the two boys not even match up?

Thanks!

[TheNorth's1stKnight]

i don't think the ages match up. jon snow was born in 283 and aegon in 281 or 282. aegon was just a baby during the sack of king's landing and i don't think jon snow was even born yet.

[Isobel Harper]

i don't think the ages match up. jon snow was born in 283 and aegon in 281 or 282. aegon was just a baby during the sack of king's landing and i don't think jon snow was even born yet.

The premise of the theory is that Young Griff is not Elia Martell's son Aegon. Young Griff is the son - at least one of them - that Lyanna Stark gave birth to.

[Isobel Harper]

OP: This is one of my favorite crackpot theories! I even feature a comment I made on the subject in my signature.

Here are some possible clues to R+L=A(+J) in the books:

1.) In ADwD, Tyrion makes japes about Young Griff's hair color, to which he defends himself by saying "I dye my hair in memory of her (his mother.)" Blue, the color of Young Griff's hair, is a color that is commonly associated with Lyanna, via the Blue Rose.

2.) Foster father name parallel: Jon Connington and Aegon hide as Griff and Young Griff. If R+L=A+J is correct, there would be a parallel of the two boys names with Connington's, with Young Griff (Aegon's fake name) sharing Griff's fake name, and Jon Snow sharing his real name.

3.) Griff's first appearance in the story features him wearing a wolf-skin cloak:

Griff’s cloak was made from the hide and head of a red wolf of the Rhoyne. (ADwD, Tyrion III)

Not only does Griff wear this cloak in Tyrion's first POV, but in every single one of Tyrion's POVs on the Shy Maid thereafter. Also, the cloak is "of the Rhoyne." With the Rhoyne, we associate Nymeria and the importance of the female/mother. Just as a spear (Martell) piercing the sun (Nymeria and the Rhoynar) symbolizes a Martell-Nymeria union, so might a "red wolf" symbolize a Targaryen-Stark union - red from the Targaryen dragon and a wolf from the Stark direwolf. There's also the symbolism of Rhoynish animals being the children of "Mother Rhoyne." The chapter when Tyrion defeats Haldon Halfmaester after wagering for secrets, the Shy Maid is rocked by the sudden appearance of gigantic turtle.

"A turtle," said Tyrion. "A turtle bigger than this boat."

"It was him," cried Yandry. "The Old Man of the River."

And why not? Tyrion grinned. Gods and wonders always appear, to attend the birth of kings.

(ADwD, Tyrion IV)

In the context of R+L=A+J and the "red wolf of the Rhoyne," this scene emphasizes the son of a mother - the mother of the Old Man of the River was Mother Rhoyne; the mother of the "red wolf" was Lyanna.

4.) The text gives a subtle hint that Connington knows something about R+L=son(s):

"No man could have asked for a worthier son," Griff said, "but the lad is not of my blood, and his name is not Griff. My lords, I give you Aegon Targaryen, firstborn son of Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone, by Princess Elia of Dorne … soon, with your help, to be Aegon, the Sixth of His Name, King of Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and Lord of the Seven Kingdoms." (ADwD, The Lost Lord)

[123paco]

Hey, great arguments, you actually almost have me convinced!

However, if this was actually true why wouldn't they just outright tell everyone? What's the point in saying Aegon is Elia's son instead of Lyanna's? He'd be a bastard, sure, but the only other Targaryen roaming about is Dany and she's half a world away. Surely he'd still have some claim to the throne if he's the only one who's related to Rhaegar, even if he is a bastard.

If not, they could still say Rhaegar legitimized him before dying. Nobody would have any proof he didn't.

[rivers snow]

OP: This is one of my favorite crackpot theories!

COOL! I woke up thinking it the other day and was trying to find a huge hole as to why it couldn't work...

[Isobel Harper]

Hey, great arguments, you actually almost have me convinced!

However, if this was actually true why wouldn't they just outright tell everyone? What's the point in saying Aegon is Elia's son instead of Lyanna's? He'd be a bastard, sure, but the only other Targaryen roaming about is Dany and she's half a world away. Surely he'd still have some claim to the throne if he's the only one who's related to Rhaegar, even if he is a bastard.

If not, they could still say Rhaegar legitimized him before dying. Nobody would have any proof he didn't.

The possibility of Young Griff being a bastard is the very reason that R+L would be covered up. As a bastard, Young Griff would have no claim to the throen. Rhaegar was only a prince and did not have the power to legitimize a bastard. Only a king may do that. Given that Aerys named Viserys his heir instead of Rhaegar's children when Rhaegar died on the Trident, it's doubtful that Aerys legitimized anyone prepartum and/or recognized any second marriage.

[rivers snow]

The possibility of Young Griff being a bastard is the very reason that R+L would be covered up. As a bastard, Young Griff would have no claim to the throen. Rhaegar was only a prince and did not have the power to legitimize a bastard. Only a king may do that. Given that Aerys named Viserys his heir instead of Rhaegar's children when Rhaegar died on the Trident, it's doubtful that Aerys legitimized anyone prepartum and/or recognized any second marriage.

Hmm...there is also the possibility that Aerys did recognize a marriage between Lyanna and Rhaegar (why he wouldn't have just acknowledged that vs. roasting Brandon Stark, dunno)...

But the popular R+L=J payoff is the idea that Jon could be the rightful heir to all of Westeros, ahead of Dany, no? If so, a twin brother would have the same claim.

[Isobel Harper]

Hmm...there is also the possibility that Aerys did recognize a marriage between Lyanna and Rhaegar (why he wouldn't have just acknowledged that vs. roasting Brandon Stark, dunno)...

But the popular R+L=J payoff is the idea that Jon could be the rightful heir to all of Westeros, ahead of Dany, no? If so, a twin brother would have the same claim.

Brandon Stark and Rickard Stark were executed for treason related to Brandon's threats against Rhaegar. Rhaegar absconding with Lyanna was the reason behind Brandon's threats, but we don't know if Rhaegar and Lyanna had married at that point or if they ever truly did.

[Aerys III of his name]

someone said Jon is like Luke skywalker, maybe the fake Aegon is his male version of twin Leia, yes the birth date does not coincide but maybe Aegon went with Holand Reed who somehow manage to ged rid of him sending him in essos to some trusted friend, this trusted friend became friend of Jon Connington and during some feast whilst being drunk he told him about this white haired little guy he want to ged rid of and Jon remembering his prince Raeghar asked to babysit him, then Varys and Illyrio being two acquaintances of Jon see the baby by chance and start to have the idea of replacing him as Aegon

[LordKnowNothing]

Interesting to think about, and as much as I'd like it to work, we must first attempt to poke as many holes in this theory as possible.

1) Why split them up? The different appearances could account for this decision, but

2) How does (f)Aegon get out of the Tower of Love?

3) If you want to say Vary's took him, well, why the hell doesn't Ned trust Varys when he gets to Kings Landing? If they conspired together to keep the kids a secret, you better bet Ned would look to Varys to help him and take his advice when he goes to become Hand.

4) Why does Vary's bother to tell his story of the "pisswater prince" to Tyrion? Once he is revealing his deception, might as well go all the way and reveal the twin as Jon. Who the hell is Tyrion going to tell?

5) GRRM has littered is books with hints regarding R+L=J, you'd think he would drop a few breadcrumbs about this. He doesn't like the deus ex machina method of storytelling true he likes cliffhangers, but he would rather kill a character than have them rescued at the last second.

I guess I want to believe b/c it explains why the hell we have him (other than as a false flag operation, an operation human shield so to speak which in addition to reducing some of the fighting forces of westeros, helps rally targ supporters for Dany) but It seems like this story is about the characters we met in the beginning of A Game of Thones (hence why I do not believe we are finished with the 998th Lord Commander of the Nights Watch)

[rivers snow]

I was thinking that Ned took both twins from tower of joy. He kept jon who had the starkish look and could pass for his bastard. He smuggled faegon to Ashara Dayne at Starfall (maybe thats why he personally returned Dawn all the way there), Ashara had features that could pass for Targ. She smuggles him to Essos and adopts the persona of Lemore, her death is fabricated in Westeros as cover. She may tell Faegon the truth but given the existence of the twins is secret all together getting rest of crew to follow along is easier by framing him as Elia's.

I am starting to think it hangs together.

[rivers snow]

In terms of crumbs btw, grrm has built a lot of mystery around Ashara (and her family in general) and we still dont have the payoff...

[LordKnowNothing]

I was thinking that Ned took both twins from tower of joy. He kept jon who had the starkish look and could pass for his bastard. He smuggled faegon to Ashara Dayne at Starfall (maybe thats why he personally returned Dawn all the way there), Ashara had features that could pass for Targ. She smuggles him to Essos and adopts the persona of Lemore, her death is fabricated in Westeros as cover. She may tell Faegon the truth but given the existence of the twins is secret all together getting rest of crew to follow along is easier by framing him as Elia's.

I am starting to think it hangs together.

Hmm, it would work with both the statement that Ashara had a still born child and that Septa Lemore appears to have signs indicating she gave birth, but I think there was a previous post where it was explained that the ages just don't match up. But then again, for many people, we are not aware of their true age, and of course most of what people know in the books is hearsay at best, utter fabrication at worst.

[Swordofthemornin]

Like this theory alot, makes a hell alot of sense to me

OP: This is one of my favorite crackpot theories! I even feature a comment I made on the subject in my signature.

Here are some possible clues to R+L=A(+J) in the books:

1.) In ADwD, Tyrion makes japes about Young Griff's hair color, to which he defends himself by saying "I dye my hair in memory of her (his mother.)" Blue, the color of Young Griff's hair, is a color that is commonly associated with Lyanna, via the Blue Rose.

2.) Foster father name parallel: Jon Connington and Aegon hide as Griff and Young Griff. If R+L=A+J is correct, there would be a parallel of the two boys names with Connington's, with Young Griff (Aegon's fake name) sharing Griff's fake name, and Jon Snow sharing his real name.

3.) Griff's first appearance in the story features him wearing a wolf-skin cloak:

Griff’s cloak was made from the hide and head of a red wolf of the Rhoyne. (ADwD, Tyrion III)

Not only does Griff wear this cloak in Tyrion's first POV, but in every single one of Tyrion's POVs on the Shy Maid thereafter. Also, the cloak is "of the Rhoyne." With the Rhoyne, we associate Nymeria and the importance of the female/mother. Just as a spear (Martell) piercing the sun (Nymeria and the Rhoynar) symbolizes a Martell-Nymeria union, so might a "red wolf" symbolize a Targaryen-Stark union - red from the Targaryen dragon and a wolf from the Stark direwolf. There's also the symbolism of Rhoynish animals being the children of "Mother Rhoyne." The chapter when Tyrion defeats Haldon Halfmaester after wagering for secrets, the Shy Maid is rocked by the sudden appearance of gigantic turtle.

"A turtle," said Tyrion. "A turtle bigger than this boat."

"It was him," cried Yandry. "The Old Man of the River."

And why not? Tyrion grinned. Gods and wonders always appear, to attend the birth of kings.

(ADwD, Tyrion IV)

In the context of R+L=A+J and the "red wolf of the Rhoyne," this scene emphasizes the son of a mother - the mother of the Old Man of the River was Mother Rhoyne; the mother of the "red wolf" was Lyanna.

4.) The text gives a subtle hint that Connington knows something about R+L=son(s):

"No man could have asked for a worthier son," Griff said, "but the lad is not of my blood, and his name is not Griff. My lords, I give you Aegon Targaryen, firstborn son of Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone, by Princess Elia of Dorne … soon, with your help, to be Aegon, the Sixth of His Name, King of Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and Lord of the Seven Kingdoms." (ADwD, The Lost Lord)

Brilliantly set out concise argument, well done! Im currently rereading Dance and I also noticed the wolfskin cloak mention, but that was all.

For a long time ive really fancied Lemore to be Ashara Dayne, it just makes sense.

The one thing id like to add to this and I apologize for not being able to bring any great textual evidence to back it up, is that instead of twins it was infact triplets, with the third child being Meera Reed.

Meera, like Aegon and Jon was fostered, in her case by Howland Reed the only other remaining survivor of the TOJ, who with Ned, traveled to Starfall where Ashara was allegedly given Dawn before jumping from a tower mad with grief.

But what really happened was that they each took one of the children as their own, to bring them up safe from the clutches of Robert Baratheon, to never reveal their secret.

Lemore/Ashara could therefore be the Howland everyone is looking for, she would be able to reveal the true identity of Jon Snow.

Three heads of the Dragon, and if you like 3 dragon riders, Jon Targaryen on Drogon, the silver haired Aegon on Viserion and Meera of the swamp on Rhaegal.

The reason I say that is because Meera in the text is said to wear a shirt of bronze scales she is also of the swamp and her father is supposedly Howland who is a Greenseer, Rhaegals colouring is green and bronze.

For good measure is Viserions colouring not White/Blue?

Maybe they wont be dragonriders and this is just an allusion to the three heads of the dragon, the spawn of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[MorpHDoc]

Apparently they had quadruplets.

As Twin theory is nice and I like the proofs you have posted here, the triplet theory is not so great.

Dany is one of the dragon riders. We know it and this cannot change. We just need to find 2 more. We know that Jon is most likely to be the 2nd rider, so we need to have 3rd. I do think fAegon will be the 3rd one. Is he a true Aegon or son of R+L? I do not know.

[Swordofthemornin]

Apparently they had quadruplets.

As Twin theory is nice and I like the proofs you have posted here, the triplet theory is not so great.

Dany is one of the dragon riders. We know it and this cannot change. We just need to find 2 more. We know that Jon is most likely to be the 2nd rider, so we need to have 3rd. I do think fAegon will be the 3rd one. Is he a true Aegon or son of R+L? I do not know.

Dany wasnt born of Rhaegar & Lyanna

[MorpHDoc]

Dany wasnt born of Rhaegar & Lyanna

I know, but who said the the three heads of the dragon must come from the same parents? The prophecy only said about the "prince that was promised" not a "three siblings that were promised". We do not know if "The dragon has three heads" is a prophecy and what it really means. Perhaps it's just a wishful thinking by Prince Rhaegar since his sigil is a dragon with three heads or perhaps he wants his house to rule once again as they ruled when they conquered Westeros.

[Swordofthemornin]

I know, but who said the the three heads of the dragon must come from the same parents? The prophecy only said about the "prince that was promised" not a "three siblings that were promised". We do not know if "The dragon has three heads" is a prophecy and what it really means. Perhaps it's just a wishful thinking by Prince Rhaegar since his sigil is a dragon with three heads or perhaps he wants his house to rule once again as they ruled when they conquered Westeros.

I never explicitly said that is the case, i'm merely theorising. To me it sounds about right and makes sense. Ive read alot of theories on these boards and its one I like.

[MorpHDoc]

I never explicitly said that is the case, i'm merely theorising. To me it sounds about right and makes sense. Ive read alot of theories on these boards and its one I like.

Jon and fAegon - yes, it does make sense to me. But not Meera. This is very odd - but it is plausible.