R+L=J v.145

[jontarstark]

As a book reader and a fan of the show, I have always been a believer Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I believe The Knight of The Laughing Tree was also Lyanna Stark! Ned Stark r.i.p was one of, if the not the most honorable men in Westeros. That's why he was constantly haunted by his lie. Even though it was for the best. SPOILER SPOILER.............................................................................................................

I Believe Jon will be one of the main heroes for the Dawn. I don't think there is gonna be just 1 against the legions of weights and The Others. I believe there will be good handful. Bran, Davos, Danaerys, Tyrion, Samwell, etc. The Wall will be coming down as well! Trust me on that. I hope there will be legions of hunters. I would like to see just for giggles 1 team as follows - leader Jon Tarstark, hand: Davos, maesterish Samwell, Muscle Big Jon Umber, Victorian Greyjoy and Benjen Stark, Team 2 leader Danaerys, hand Tyrion, Maesterish Marwyn, Muscle strong Belwas, Jorah, Barristan and yes Arthur Dayne. I believe he is alive

[Adaneth]

Hi everybody. I'm new (obviously :D) and my english it's not very good, so be patient with me.

I've been lurking this forum for sometimes now and I'm R+L=J team since I read the first book. Regarding this....

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
It is not so obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on their first read, but most will not. Readers who go to online fan forums, such as this, still represent a very small minority of the readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 18 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery. Crowd-sourced internet-based mystery solving like this inevitably make solved mysteries seem more obvious in hindsight.

I'm not sure it's not so obvious to the majority of readers. As I said, I thought about this since I read the first book and I had no other sources to make me think about this possibility becasue I had no idea about forums on Martin books. Even my fiancé, who's not a book reader, thought about the same thing by just watching the first episode of GoT tv show. Precisely when Jon left for the NW and Ned told him "we will talk about your mother next time we'll see each other" and he also said something like "you're my blood".

In anycase, what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't need to be not so obvious. You may very well put a big clue and people will still talk and want to know more about it. After all, we cannot be absolutely sure. Furthermore, we still don't know what are the implications of Jon being R&L son and I think that's the most important thing in this whole mystery, not just knowing who his parents really are. Therefore, it doesn't mean anything even if it is obvious for the majority of readers.

George R.R. Martin is a "breaker of tropes, there can be no hidden prince, it's simply too cliché.
In order to break a trope it needs to be installed in the first place. It is yet unknown what will happen to Jon in the future. Being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar does not imply the fairy-tale style happy ending associated with the hidden prince trope.

Is it so bad to have one "good" story, which may very well sound a cliché to us, in a book which is full of politics, intrigue and violence? Why is it so bad, or not credible, that in the middle of all these awful things there is a true love story ? I'm not such a romantic woman believe me ;) , but I find that having R&L union just for political/practical reasons, or prophecy, in a series of novels full of politics and ugly stuff happening quite unbelievable also. I know it's Westeros and it's inspired by Medieval Ages but it would be reductive ti describe it as times for intrigue, violence, politics and war only. It was a time for love and great romantic gestures also. Edward IV married to Elizabeth Woodville, a widow and mother of two boys. Mary Tudor married Charles Brandon which made Henry VIII furious etc.etc. Throughout history, men and women have joined together in partnerships both practical and romantic. Bittersweet ending it's fine but it doesn't mean it has to end in tragedy either. In Tolkien's "The Lord of The Rings" Sauron is defeated. The War of the Ring ends. Aragorn is crowned King and marries his long-time love Arwen, and yet I feel it has a bittersweet ending because Frodo remains wounded in body and spirit and he sails with Bilbo and Gandalf to the Undying Lands. The time of the Elves was over and that's was the saddest part for me. :crying:

Edit: spelling

[IceFire125]

As a book reader and a fan of the show, I have always been a believer Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I believe The Knight of The Laughing Tree was also Lyanna Stark! Ned Stark r.i.p was one of, if the not the most honorable men in Westeros. That's why he was constantly haunted by his lie. Even though it was for the best. SPOILER SPOILER.............................................................................................................

I Believe Jon will be one of the main heroes for the Dawn. I don't think there is gonna be just 1 against the legions of weights and The Others. I believe there will be good handful. Bran, Davos, Danaerys, Tyrion, Samwell, etc. The Wall will be coming down as well! Trust me on that. I hope there will be legions of hunters. I would like to see just for giggles 1 team as follows - leader Jon Tarstark, hand: Davos, maesterish Samwell, Muscle Big Jon Umber, Victorian Greyjoy and Benjen Stark, Team 2 leader Danaerys, hand Tyrion, Maesterish Marwyn, Muscle strong Belwas, Jorah, Barristan and yes Arthur Dayne. I believe he is alive

Welcome to the boards and R+L=J thread. ^_^

Hi everybody. I'm new (obviously :D) and my english it's not very good, so be patient with me.

I've been lurking this forum for sometimes now and I'm R+L=J team since I read the first book.

Welcome to the forum and WOW!! first post on R+L=J thread? :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

You'll be surprise of the hints that Martin was able to sprinkle in about Rhaegar and Lyanna, even with my re-readings.

Ygritte was much in his thoughts as well. He remembered the smell of her hair, the warmth of her body … and the look on her face as she slit the old man’s throat. You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he’d left Jon’s mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night’s Watch

**Pledging is swearing your oath. Both Rhaegar and Lyanna pledged to each other in front of the weirwood, just as Jon did when he pledged his oath to the Night's Watch.

[BearQueen87]

Welcome to the RLJ madness, new friends!

As for the hints: they are all over the place but I've found after hearing (reading?) so many peoples "how I realized the truth" stories that they often don't get it on the first read or even second (it was on my second AGOT re-reading) but there is always one hint that they see and suddenly all the other ones fall into place. And that's when you notice all the deeply embedded RLJ fun.

[Adaneth]

Welcome to the forum and WOW!! first post on R+L=J thread? :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Thank you. :) It had to be in this thread. I think I've read almost all the topics about R+L=J before becoming a member here. :D

**Pledging is swearing your oath. Both Rhaegar and Lyanna pledged to each other in front of the weirwood

I believe in that too. I think they did pledged to each other in front of the weirwood. Whether that's legit now, or back then, I don't know but I think it would've been important for her.

[Ygrain]

Hi everybody. I'm new (obviously :D) and my english it's not very good, so be patient with me.

I've been lurking this forum for sometimes now and I'm R+L=J team since I read the first book. Regarding this....

I'm not sure it's not so obvious to the majority of readers. As I said, I thought about this since I read the first book and I had no other sources to make me think about this possibility becasue I had no idea about forums on Martin books. Even my fiancé, who's not a book reader, thought about the same thing by just watching the first episode of GoT tv show. Precisely when Jon left for the NW and Ned told him "we will talk about your mother next time we'll see each other" and he also said something like "you're my blood".

In anycase, what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't need to be not so obvious. You may very well put a big clue and people will still talk and want to know more about it. After all, we cannot be absolutely sure. Furthermore, we still don't know what are the implications of Jon being R&L son and I think that's the most important thing in this whole mystery, not just knowing who his parents really are. Therefore, it doesn't mean anything even if it is obvious for the majority of readers.

Is it so bad to have one "good" story, which may very well sound a cliché to us, in a book which is full of politics, intrigue and violence? Why is it so bad, or not credible, that in the middle of all these awful things there is a true love story ? I'm not such a romantic woman believe me ;) , but I find that having R&L union just for political/practical reasons, or prophecy, in a series of novels full of politics and ugly stuff happening quite unbelievable also. I know it's Westeros and it's inspired by Medieval Ages but it would be reductive ti describe it as times for intrigue, violence, politics and war only. It was a time for love and great romantic gestures also. Edward IV married to Elizabeth Woodville, a widow and mother of two boys. Mary Tudor married Charles Brandon which made Henry VIII furious etc.etc. Throughout history, men and women have joined together in partnerships both practical and romantic. Bittersweet ending it's fine but it doesn't mean it has to end in tragedy either. In Tolkien's "The Lord of The Rings" Sauron is defeated. The War of the Ring ends. Aragorn is crowned King and marries his long-time love Arwen, and yet I feel it has a bittersweet ending because Frodo remains wounded in body and spirit and he sails with Bilbo and Gandalf to the Undying Lands. The time of the Elves was over and that's was the saddest part for me. :crying:

Edit: spelling

Welcome to the forums! :-)

I believe that you are right - the fact that the series is gritty doesn't mean that people don't fall in love, or don't do things for love. We see it even in the series, repeatedly - Robb and Jeyne, Duncan the Small and Jenny... The argument that "GRRM wouldn't do a romance" is usually just a veiled strawman for "I don't like this theory" or something similar.

[Eurybia]

Welcome to the RLJ madness, new friends!

As for the hints: they are all over the place but I've found after hearing (reading?) so many peoples "how I realized the truth" stories that they often don't get it on the first read or even second (it was on my second AGOT re-reading) but there is always one hint that they see and suddenly all the other ones fall into place. And that's when you notice all the deeply embedded RLJ fun.

It's so funny because once you "figure it out", the clues are all over the place and it does seem obvious, but in the way of really great mysteries and twists, where it's not really obvious at all, until you get that initial lightning bolt. It makes rereading such a rich experience.

[twikee]

Who will tell jon about his parentage? Ned's dead.

[Ygrain]

Who will tell jon about his parentage? Ned's dead.

Yet his spirit seemed rather talkative - if only Bran could recall what it was that concerned Jon. But Bran has more options to learn about the past these days, and there is also the mysterious Howland Reed and whoever else might have been present at ToJ.

[Mother of Dragons]

**Pledging is swearing your oath. Both Rhaegar and Lyanna pledged to each other in front of the weirwood, just as Jon did when he pledged his oath to the Night's Watch.

This never happened in the text.

[FrozenFire3]

Hi everybody. I'm new (obviously :D) and my english it's not very good, so be patient with me.

I've been lurking this forum for sometimes now and I'm R+L=J team since I read the first book. Regarding this....

<snip>

Welcome to the boards :)

From you nickname I'd guess we could share quite a bit of common roots? Caterina is such an underrated historical figure btw... and for those who think Lyanna was a way too young when she 'eloped' with Rhaegar, well, Caterina married Girolamo Riario (aged 30) at the tender age of 10 :stunned: And yet she was one the toughest, strongest and most influential figure of Italian Renaissance.

[Ygrain]

Ygritte was much in his thoughts as well. He remembered the smell of her hair, the warmth of her body … and the look on her face as she slit the old man’s throat. You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he’d left Jon’s mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night’s Watch

**Pledging is swearing your oath. Both Rhaegar and Lyanna pledged to each other in front of the weirwood, just as Jon did when he pledged his oath to the Night's Watch.

Lol, only it was a different father and a different Lady Stark than Jon thought! :D

[BearQueen87]

This never happened in the text.

Yet

[Alia of the knife]

Hi everybody. I'm new (obviously :D) and my english it's not very good, so be patient with me.

I've been lurking this forum for sometimes now and I'm R+L=J team since I read the first book. Regarding this....

I'm not sure it's not so obvious to the majority of readers. As I said, I thought about this since I read the first book and I had no other sources to make me think about this possibility becasue I had no idea about forums on Martin books. Even my fiancé, who's not a book reader, thought about the same thing by just watching the first episode of GoT tv show. Precisely when Jon left for the NW and Ned told him "we will talk about your mother next time we'll see each other" and he also said something like "you're my blood".

In anycase, what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't need to be not so obvious. You may very well put a big clue and people will still talk and want to know more about it. After all, we cannot be absolutely sure. Furthermore, we still don't know what are the implications of Jon being R&L son and I think that's the most important thing in this whole mystery, not just knowing who his parents really are. Therefore, it doesn't mean anything even if it is obvious for the majority of readers.

Is it so bad to have one "good" story, which may very well sound a cliché to us, in a book which is full of politics, intrigue and violence? Why is it so bad, or not credible, that in the middle of all these awful things there is a true love story ? I'm not such a romantic woman believe me ;) , but I find that having R&L union just for political/practical reasons, or prophecy, in a series of novels full of politics and ugly stuff happening quite unbelievable also. I know it's Westeros and it's inspired by Medieval Ages but it would be reductive ti describe it as times for intrigue, violence, politics and war only. It was a time for love and great romantic gestures also. Edward IV married to Elizabeth Woodville, a widow and mother of two boys. Mary Tudor married Charles Brandon which made Henry VIII furious etc.etc. Throughout history, men and women have joined together in partnerships both practical and romantic. Bittersweet ending it's fine but it doesn't mean it has to end in tragedy either. In Tolkien's "The Lord of The Rings" Sauron is defeated. The War of the Ring ends. Aragorn is crowned King and marries his long-time love Arwen, and yet I feel it has a bittersweet ending because Frodo remains wounded in body and spirit and he sails with Bilbo and Gandalf to the Undying Lands. The time of the Elves was over and that's was the saddest part for me. :crying:

Edit: spelling

My childhood neighbors were Greek, my former boss and still friend is Italian and Chilean, and my husband is of Czech roots, so I bet your English is just fine. :)

Welcome to the boards :)

From you nickname I'd guess we could share quite a bit of common roots? Caterina is such an underrated historical figure btw... and for those who think Lyanna was a way too young when she 'eloped' with Rhaegar, well, Caterina married Girolamo Riario (aged 30) at the tender age of 10 :stunned: And yet she was one the toughest, strongest and most influential figure of Italian Renaissance.

And I've always speculated that Braavos is very like Venice of this time, and that the Braavasi Courtesans will also play a role as an influence on Arya especially as she grows into her own beauty.

Welcome to the Boards, and I love your avatar.

[Ygrain]

And I've always speculated that Braavos is very like Venice of this time, and that the Braavasi Courtesans will also play a role as an influence on Arya especially as she grows into her own beauty.

Does this mean that we get to meet Ezio Auditore? :-) :drool:

I'd love to see the courtesans at play but I am rather worried that two books may not suffice.

[ArabellaVidal]

Welcome to the forums! :-)

I believe that you are right - the fact that the series is gritty doesn't mean that people don't fall in love, or don't do things for love. We see it even in the series, repeatedly - Robb and Jeyne, Duncan the Small and Jenny... The argument that "GRRM wouldn't do a romance" is usually just a veiled strawman for "I don't like this theory" or something similar.

That kind of attitude seems immensely weird to me particularly when you come across lines like,

The things I do for love.

Love is the bane of honour, the death of duty.

We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.

Only Cat.

These are only a few lines. They hint at the depth and complexity and even the dysfunctional elements of the issue of romantic love particularly when it encompasses whole populations within the grip of its consequences.

Even the author is one of the most ardent fans of Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast!

[MtnLion]

That kind of attitude seems immensely weird to me particularly when you come across lines like,

The things I do for love.

Love is the bane of honour, the death of duty.

We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.

Only Cat.

These are only a few lines. They hint at the depth and complexity and even the dysfunctional elements of the issue of romantic love particularly when it encompasses whole populations within the grip of its consequences.

Even the author is one of the most ardent fans of Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast!

See GRRM's comment about conflicts of the heart being an object worth writing about. Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and the realm paid for it. We cannot know about Lyanna's feelings in the matter, as a certainty, though we know that it is likely that she would protect her honor. That makes it all the more likely that it was a reciprocal relationship. Love is indeed the death of duty/honor, and the realm bled for RHaegar choosing love over duty. Yes?

[Ygrain]

See GRRM's comment about conflicts of the heart being an object worth writing about. Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and the realm paid for it. We cannot know about Lyanna's feelings in the matter, as a certainty, though we know that it is likely that she would protect her honor. That makes it all the more likely that it was a reciprocal relationship. Love is indeed the death of duty/honor, and the realm bled for RHaegar choosing love over duty. Yes?

Perhaps not with 100% certainty, but her holding the roses even on her deathbed speaks volumes. Also, Dany's daydreaming about Daario coming to rescue her from the marriage to Hizdahr also implies an abductee reciprocating the feelings.

[WeaselPie]

That kind of attitude seems immensely weird to me particularly when you come across lines like,

The things I do for love.

Love is the bane of honour, the death of duty.

We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.

Only Cat.

These are only a few lines. They hint at the depth and complexity and even the dysfunctional elements of the issue of romantic love particularly when it encompasses whole populations within the grip of its consequences.

Even the author is one of the most ardent fans of Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast!

The first is attempted child murder. The last is outright murder. Not quite romantic.

[Alia of the knife]

Does this mean that we get to meet Ezio Auditore? :-) :drool:

I'd love to see the courtesans at play but I am rather worried that two books may not suffice.

Maybe we have- Jaquen... :)