Codename: Nymeria Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 Okay, so this is my very first post, and I'm going straight for the tinfoil crown right off the bat. Basically, the below is my theory on how Jon Snow will be revived as AA/PTWP. I'm basing this largely on Melisandre's prophecy, i.e. "When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt." First and foremost, I'm operating under the assumption that the show and books are ultimately headed to the same place, and that involves Jon become AA/PTWP, etc, etc. We already know that the "red star" is bleeding in the sky, and I think it's fairly obvious the Others/Winter Coming combo indicates that "darkness" is gathering. Likewise, Master Aemon also mentions the "smoke and salt" motif. I'll also go ahead and throw in (since this is tinfoil) that "darkness gathering" could also refer to the Night's Watch gathering to stab Jon (given the connection between the NW and the color black). As for "salt":Outside of prophecies, we have (to my knowledge) only mentioned salt in connection with one group: the Iron Islanders. They take "salt wives", and they are baptised in salt water when they take their oaths before the Drowned God. Hence, the "salt" aspect of this prophecy is likely to relate to an Iron Islander. As it so happens, there's an Iron Islander within distance of Castle Black who:- has already been condemned to death, and- owes a huge karmic debt to Jon's familyBesides, we know from the House of Black and White, as well as Mirri Maz Duur (more on her in a second) that you have to trade life for life. So it says here that Theon Greyjoy's life is being traded in for more of Jon's. Then we have "smoke":I will flat-out admit I'm cheating a little here, and assuming that Melisandre's return to Castle Black in GOT was a big hint. That said, she's at Castle Black in the books anyway. At first, I wanted to try and use the "shadow" of Assai as an analogue for "smoke", but instead came up with something better:Clearly, the priests of R'hllor are associated with fire, him being the Lord of Light and demanding Wicker Man sacrifices and all. When his priests/priestesses are operating with his "favor", they clearly have a symbolic connection to fire: Moqorro is the "Red Flame", while Thoros' ability to conjure fire appears to be largely depending on his belief and connection to the Red God. Melisandre was clearly in the favor of R'hllor for a while, but ultimately, it seems likely her versions (in particular, Stannis=AA) are failing her. As such, she has a fire that has been snuffed out...or "smoke". So - what we're heading for in AWoW is the following: Jon Snow, either dead or mostly dead (look who knows so much!), is going to be placed on a funeral pyre by the brothers of the NW, who certainly don't want a zombie, Other-resurrected Jon Snow coming back to fight them. Somewhere in this process, possibly by choice (perhaps Theon will choose to "die with his true brother" or something like that), or possibly through the schemes of Melisandre, said pyre will ultimately be lit whilst Jon Snow, Theon and Melisandre are on it. When the fire clears and all is said and done, what will emerge is a naked, reborn Jon Snow (as Jon Snow/Targaryen/AA/PTWP), in a near-exact parallel of what happened with his Aunt Daenerys lo those many books/seasons ago with Drogo and Mirri Maz Duur. Jon will be burned alongside a non-blood related kinsman and a woman who traffics in magic, and be restored/reborn. Even better, once he comes back, he'll want an explanation for why he didn't burn in the fire. This will likely lead him to consider the story of Dany and the dragons (which he knows about, being in Sam and Master Aemon's confidence), and would allow for Jon to have an epiphany about his Targaryen blood without the need for intercession by crannogmen or some kind of crazy warg vision from Bran. Or perhaps Sam will return from Oldtown having learned that certain Targs (not all, because I know there's the guy who tried to turn himself into a dragon by drinking fire) don't burn, and R+L=J will be revealed that way. Either way, it provides the obvious thematic connection between Dany and Jon that is too freakin' obvious for the characters to ignore. Anyhow, that's pretty much my theory. Let me know what you think. Ultimately, Jon is able to give his resur-ection to Kyle's dad, who can give it to Kyle's mom so they can stop fighting. And then, in celebration, all the members of the Night's Watch will flop their wieners in Jon's face! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Many Faced Dude Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 he does not burn... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diVJSD2Pv2Q ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BalerionTheCat Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Possibly GRRM will repeat the trick of book 1. They will burn him on a pyre. With the Brothers saying "and now his watch is ended".With the corpses of the rebel brothers on the pyre too.And him, naked and alive afterward. Or GRRM will write something different, because twice the same would be too many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 No, I think GRRM is more original than that. I think rather it is BranRaven that helps Jon as is hinted at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GravyFace Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 What's the point of repeating the same magical event, which George called a one-time miracle?I agree it would make a nice parallel, but why would Jon emerging from a fire unburnt make him AA/TPTWP and not Dany? She walks into a fire, stays in it all night, come out alive and unburnt with 3 dragons, and she's what? A red herring? Nothing special? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename: Nymeria Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 Been thinking about this...and wanted to add to it. What's the point of repeating the same magical event, which George called a one-time miracle?I agree it would make a nice parallel, but why would Jon emerging from a fire unburnt make him AA/TPTWP and not Dany? She walks into a fire, stays in it all night, come out alive and unburnt with 3 dragons, and she's what? A red herring? Nothing special? So, one, GRRM repeats things all the time. Like weddings that involve people dying, or Lannisters being involved in trials by combat. Drogon is said to be the spitting image of Balerion. Parallels. Secondly, the difference between Jon and Dany's "rebirth" is that Jon is/was actually dead, while Dany was spiritually dead. Jon will emerge as AA/PTWP because of the salt and smoke mentioned above, and I'm now going to add that he's going to emerge from the funeral pyre with Targaryen features - silver hair, purple eyes, the whole shebang. The fire will burn away the veil. Dany got three dragons, which is part of the overall prophecy, because AA/PTWP will still need dragons to defeat the Others. Dany's not a red herring; she's proof positive that only someone with Targaryen blood could emerge from that alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 What's dead my never die, but rises again harder and stronger. Get it? :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 What's dead my never die, but rises again harder and stronger. Get it? :P And colder too :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visenya Stark Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 So, one, GRRM repeats things all the time. Like weddings that involve people dying, or Lannisters being involved in trials by combat. Drogon is said to be the spitting image of Balerion. Parallels. GRRM never referred to these things as one-time miracles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xXx_Petyr_Baelish_xXx Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I wanted his eyes to turn blue at the end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idio Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I do like the idea of the Red Women being burned. Perhaps that's where the NW mutineers go next: On a rampage to exterminate everything that has "subverted" their cause, which would include getting rid of everyone tied to Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esa1996 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Besides, we know from the House of Black and White, as well as Mirri Maz Duur (more on her in a second) that you have to trade life for life. So it says here that Theon Greyjoy's life is being traded in for more of Jon's. Except that Martin's magic is illogical and even established rules don't matter (Yes, I'm annoyed about this, hence my tone). Beric never required anyone to die for him and he was resurrected 7 times. Cat required Beric to die, but then again, Beric never needed anyone so it's still not a fair exchange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 ^Beric was not fully resurrected, he did not remember his past lives fully, and Thoros gave part of his soul like Stannis did to the shadow babies. Mel thinks Stannis would die if they did it again and Thoros thinks he would die if he revived Beric again. Since Thoros didn't fully bring back Beric, he didn't have to pay with his full life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename: Nymeria Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Except that Martin's magic is illogical and even established rules don't matter (Yes, I'm annoyed about this, hence my tone). Beric never required anyone to die for him and he was resurrected 7 times. Cat required Beric to die, but then again, Beric never needed anyone so it's still not a fair exchange. Which is why I would argue him referring to Dany's flame-birth as a "one-time miracle" doesn't rule out GRRM misleading readers to preserve suspense and/or changing his mind at some point while writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esa1996 Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Which is why I would argue him referring to Dany's flame-birth as a "one-time miracle" doesn't rule out GRRM misleading readers to preserve suspense and/or changing his mind at some point while writing. He already made Dany partly fireproof in ADWD. Her hair caught fire in the pit, but she only got burns on her hands from touching Drogon. She even thinks about how everything went "Just like in Drogo's pyre". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 What's dead my never die, but rises again harder and stronger. Get it? :P Naughty lion. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not a kneeler Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I think you're right about one thing: they will burn his body if Mel takes her shot and fails to resurrect him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codename: Nymeria Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 He already made Dany partly fireproof in ADWD. Her hair caught fire in the pit, but she only got burns on her hands from touching Drogon. She even thinks about how everything went "Just like in Drogo's pyre". I'm not sure if you're trying to argue for or against here? That's part of my argument/theory - the being partly fireproof is a Targaryen trait, and thus will provide Jon with an enormous clue as to his true ancestry. Plus, it burns away his hair (like Dany), so when it re-grows, it can be Targ-silver, providing an even bigger clue to his ancestry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerionBrightflameII Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Im hoping he will be the next Night King... He tried the honorable path and it screwed him over... :bang: :crying:Try the evil path....and screw them over. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: I thought GRRM confirmed that she isnt fireproof? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esa1996 Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I'm not sure if you're trying to argue for or against here? That's part of my argument/theory - the being partly fireproof is a Targaryen trait, and thus will provide Jon with an enormous clue as to his true ancestry. Plus, it burns away his hair (like Dany), so when it re-grows, it can be Targ-silver, providing an even bigger clue to his ancestry. It was a "Good point, he (Martin) even wrote this to prove your point" post. Overall, I like you theory. Nice first post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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