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Heresy 171


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Re: Craster's upbringing

Red herring or no, I'm curious where he got the idea (of sacrificing to WW) from. It seems unlikely that he just stumbled upon the idea, and it happened to work :P Although, in theory, he could just have gotten lucky - exposing the boys might have occurred to him naturally, and he happened to do it at the right time in the right place? Still, seems unlikely/unsatisfying, so I prefer to think there was some kind of a tradition he picked up.

His father was a crow, so it probably doesn't come from there ... so was it her mom? My memory is in shreds, but I think Ygritte? says his mom was from Whitetree. Which is seemingly (as far as we can tell without actually meeting the inhabitants) a normal wildling village, with an enormous heart tree (perhaps bigger than anywhere else? I think it had burned bones in its mouth?) Suggests the regular Old Gods worship, maybe particularly fervent if the size of the tree is any indication. Could there be a twist and did it involve sacrificing babies? Or her family privately practising it? In theory, but I don't think there are any hints pointing there, although I might just be forgetting/missing them.

Then what was her purpose when she ran away with him? Save the kid from something - being sacrificed OR becoming Craster? Or just wanted a "better life" for the kid, whatever was wrong with their current circumstances? Was she pining after her crow lover? Whatever the purpose was, it almost certainly failed when she was turned away (can anyone think of a reason why she'd WANT to just go to CB and be chased off?) So him becoming the Craster we know seems to result from a failure, rather than a plan on the mother's part.

Same thing for Monster rescue, actually, if he's being saved _for_ some nefarious purpose to do with the WW then why try get him away from them? ESPECIALLY if he's to be Craster's replacement after he's dead? Even if it all was some elaborate plan on Gilly&co.'s part, it sure seems to be directed at escaping the status quo rather than maintaining it, no?

Anyway, the idea still could come from momma Craster or her family somehow, if we assume that she was trying to rescue the kid by trying to smuggle it South, but upon failing that she just gave in to the pressure. Or she had a breakdown and was sucked into this weird ww-worship cult :dunno:

I suppose it could come from his first wife, or the second one - seems more likely than the mother, perhaps. Maybe he married someone with Mel's personality and persuasiveness, and all other/subsequent wives cope as best they can :dunno:

Its a good analysis and as ever there's probably too much of a tendency to polarise debate. Here's the relevant passage again in full:

“You should be,” said a woman’s voice.

Three of Craster’s wives were standing over them. Two were haggard old women he did not know, but Gilly was between them, all bundled up in skins and cradling a bundle of brown and white fur that must have held her baby. “We’re not supposed to talk to Craster’s wives,” Sam told them. “We have orders.”

“That’s done now,” said the old woman on the right.

“The blackest crows are down in the cellar, gorging,” said the old woman on the left, “or up in the loft with the young ones. They’ll be back soon though. Best you be gone when they do. The horses run off, but Dyah’s caught two.”

“You said you’d help me,” Gilly reminded him.

“I said Jon would help you. Jon’s brave, and he’s a good fighter, but I think he’s dead now. I’m a craven. And fat. Look how fat I am. Besides, Lord Mormont’s hurt. Can’t you see? I couldn’t leave the Lord Commander.”

“Child,” said the other old woman, “that old crow’s gone before you. Look.”

Mormont’s head was still in his lap, but his eyes were open and staring and his lips no longer moved. The raven cocked its head and squawked, then looked up at Sam. “Corn?”

“No corn. He has no corn.” Sam closed the Old Bear’s eyes and tried to think of a prayer, but all that came to his mind was, “Mother have mercy. Mother have mercy. Mother have mercy.”

“Your mother can’t help you none,” said the old woman on the left. “That dead old man can’t neither. You take his sword and you take that big warm fur cloak of his and you take his horse if you can find him. And you go.”

The girl don’t lie,” the old woman on the right said. “She’s my girl, and I beat the lying out of her early on. You said you’d help her. Do what Ferny says, boy. Take the girl and be quick about it.”

“Quick,” the raven said. “Quick, quick, quick.”

“Where?” asked Sam, puzzled. “Where should I take her?”

“Someplace warm,” the two old women said as one.

Gilly was crying. “Me and the babe. Please. I’ll be your wife, like I was Craster’s. Please, ser crow. He’s a boy, just like Nella said he’d be. If you don’t take him, they will.”

“They?” said Sam, and the raven cocked its black head and echoed “They. They. They.”

“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

In the end there are two important points coming out of this. Whatever the operation once going on at Craster's its over now and whether Craster's last son has any significance, he - and Sam - are bidden to get away "Someplace warm" That was very emphatic and there was no suggestion of say going back to Whitetree and starting all over. It ends here and I think what ends is not the happy home life of Craster's Keep, but the breeding of the sons.

The curse or rather the gesa was Craster's not theirs. How it came to be laid on him we don't know, but in that final scene in the keep the forceful injunction to take Gilly and the babe "Someplace warm" pretty clearly rules out any intention to keep the operation going.

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There be answers at Starfall. Too many characters have mentioned it in relation to Jon Snow, and MacGuffin No. 2 is located there.

Oh I agree, absolutely. I'm still intrigued by the Quiet Isle suggestion and can think of scenarios which might lead there and to signposts appearing, but in the end the sword and perhaps the answers are going to be found at Starfall.

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I don't find these ideas incompatible, in part, because I don't believe that certain aspects of the story as it will ultimately be written will end up resembling what he had in mind in the late 90s. I know some people here resist that notion, but both the 1993 letter, and even extremely recent comments from GRRM make it obvious just how much of a "gardener" vs. an architect he really is. It's just within the last week that he said he's suddenly decided how he's going to kill a certain character who he knew was "doomed" from the second they were introduced.

My argument is that, when GRRM was writing aGoT and at least some of aCoK, he did have sources of magic, in geographic terms, that were meant to be visited in the story in a more literal way--these journeys have subsequently been abandoned, or, as in your interpretation, reshaped into being largely internal journeys.

Yes I'm happy to find ourselves in what appears to be agreement. The point I'm trying to make is that the journeys are both internal and geographic, but as such the geography need not be literal.

In order to pass beyond the known world Bran had to make his way to find Bloodraven rather than travel beyond the edge of the map, but that still involved a journey full of danger and a physical location. It might be arguable that Danaerys did the same in visiting the House of the Undying, but ultimately I think that particular journey has still to be made. The point though is that it doesn't necessarily mean travelling all the way to Asshai and while I remain very tempted by the idea of Valyria itself, I have a recollection of GRRM saying that we may see Valyria as it was but not in the present.

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I don't find these ideas incompatible, in part, because I don't believe that certain aspects of the story as it will ultimately be written will end up resembling what he had in mind in the late 90s. I know some people here resist that notion, but both the 1993 letter, and even extremely recent comments from GRRM make it obvious just how much of a "gardener" vs. an architect he really is. It's just within the last week that he said he's suddenly decided how he's going to kill a certain character who he knew was "doomed" from the second they were introduced.

My argument is that, when GRRM was writing aGoT and at least some of aCoK, he did have sources of magic, in geographic terms, that were meant to be visited in the story in a more literal way--these journeys have subsequently been abandoned, or, as in your interpretation, reshaped into being largely internal journeys.

Honestly, it would only reinforce what he said in the 1993 letter. He knows what are the ends, but he's still building the means.

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:agree:




I think that essentially GRRM knows what needs to happen in order to get where he's going, but that doesn't mean that he knew from the outset where when and how it was to happen. If we take Jon Snow for example he may have decided pretty early on that it was going to be necessary for something baaad to befall him, but that doesn't mean that he had the business at Castle Black mapped out and may well have toyed with a number of different scenarios before eventually committing himself.


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Even if it all was some elaborate plan on Gilly&co.'s part, it sure seems to be directed at escaping the status quo rather than maintaining it, no?

Precisely.

“We’re not supposed to talk to Craster’s wives,” Sam told them. “We have orders.”

“That’s done now,” said the old woman on the right.

...

“Someplace warm,” the two old women said as one.

In the end there are two important points coming out of this. Whatever the operation once going on at Craster's its over now and whether Craster's last son has any significance, he - and Sam - are bidden to get away "Someplace warm" That was very emphatic and there was no suggestion of say going back to Whitetree and starting all over. It ends here and I think what ends is not the happy home life of Craster's Keep, but the breeding of the sons.

The curse or rather the gesa was Craster's not theirs. How it came to be laid on him we don't know, but in that final scene in the keep the forceful injunction to take Gilly and the babe "Someplace warm" pretty clearly rules out any intention to keep the operation going.

Looks like this backstory boils down to the two parts cited above.

"That's done now..." can certainly be interpreted to refer to anything our imaginations might create, but to me, it seems a simple answer to Sam's dilemma, "We’re not supposed to talk to Craster’s wives.”

"Someplace warm" makes sense given winter is coming.

Rather than serving some arcane pact, these wives enslaved and abused by a madman. These ladies are not reliable narrators.

If we stick to canon, we still do not know what becomes of their sons, and even less reason to assume they become the cold gods which their father "served". As I've mentioned before, the dynamic dynamic proposed by these traumatized "wives" creates a very obvious problem:

To whom did Craster give his first son?

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"That's done now..." can certainly be interpreted to refer to anything our imaginations might create, but to me, it seems a simple answer to Sam's dilemma, "We’re not supposed to talk to Craster’s wives.”

"Someplace warm" makes sense given winter is coming.

I'm not aware that I, or anybody else for that matter, has ever tried to suggest a different far less deeper construction should be placed on "That's done now". Its very plainly just a response to Sam protesting that he's not allowed to talk to them.

As to the other; yes obviously winter is coming; indeed to all intents and purposes its arrived and its that seeming redundancy that lends a possible significance to "Someplace warm." - beyond the Wall.

And why is Coldhands aiding that escape? Was he Craster's father?

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Same thing for Monster rescue, actually, if he's being saved _for_ some nefarious purpose to do with the WW then why try get him away from them? ESPECIALLY if he's to be Craster's replacement after he's dead? Even if it all was some elaborate plan on Gilly&co.'s part, it sure seems to be directed at escaping the status quo rather than maintaining it, no?

Well no, actually, because Craster's dead and the status quo is already gone with it.

Sure there's a bit of rape and pillage going on, but why the focus on getting Gilly and the baby away - and to somewhere warm - rather than a more general exodus?

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As to the other; yes obviously winter is coming; indeed to all intents and purposes its arrived and its that seeming redundancy that lends a possible significance to "Someplace warm." - beyond the Wall.

And why is Coldhands aiding that escape? Was he Craster's father?

Wait--are you implying Coldhands fathered a child before or after sentient wightification? Leaf's "They killed him long ago" statement would imply "after"--I thought we only had tales of women lying with Others, not wights.

I don't know Coldhands' motivation for helping Sam, but there seems to be at least a one potential problem with hypothesizing Coldhands' acting out of paternal concern . . .

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Just throwing it out there simply because we really don't know what's going on with him.



However in suggesting him as a possible for Craster's father I'm thinking simply in terms of a crow + a woman from Whitetree - before he got himself killed, not after. Its just a possible explanation for his interest.


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Well no, actually, because Craster's dead and the status quo is already gone with it.

Sure there's a bit of rape and pillage going on, but why the focus on getting Gilly and the baby away - and to somewhere warm - rather than a more general exodus?

Haha, good point. However, the escape attempt started way before that. Whether the two other women supported her plan from start, or only started backing her when Craster died, that's another question.

Funnily, the rape and pillage in itself would be enough of a reason to help Gilly and the kid get away (surely the boy's doomed to die), but they are specifically worried because of Craster's Sons.

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Edit: stupid double post.



Anyway, also wanted to add that it's indeed somewhat strange that Gilly is the only one trying to escape. I guess at that point in the story a large group of women wouldn't have much of a chance, so perhaps their best bet is to stay. But before that, was Gilly the only one ever trying to save her kid?

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Edit: blimey, it was a triple post after all!

An annoying glitch in the works. You hit the Post button and nothing appears to happen. In fact it has posted but you need to return to the dance with Dragons page to find that the last post was by your good self a minute before.

As to Gilly I'd be surprised if she was the only one ever to have thought of doing a runner, but it may be significant that she asked a passing crow, which might suggest that she couldn't look for sanctuary with other of the free folk.

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That's a good point. Well, if the wives are right (and I believe they are) and Craster's boys go to some lengths to collect their little brothers, it simply wouldn't be safe anywhere north of the Wall anyway. BTW, do they come regularly during the Summer as well? Imagine a boy being born and growing for a few years before a WW thinks to go their way *shudder* bad enough with babies that don't know any better :s


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Knock on door one cold night...



Village elder hitches robe round his shoulders, curses at being called from his fireside and opens door to find one of Craster's sons standing there with a gleam in his blue eyes.



"Sorry to trouble you so late, but I've come to pick up my little brother." :devil:


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BTW, do they come regularly during the Summer as well? Imagine a boy being born and growing for a few years before a WW thinks to go their way *shudder* bad enough with babies that don't know any better :s

Seriously though, in that initial conversation with Jon, Gilly does say that the cold gods have been coming more often lately, so its not a dial-up and collect on demand service. Her mother and that other woman profess to know when they're coming so presumably Craster did too and handed over his sons when they came knocking rather than leaving them out on the doorstep on spec.

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Re: Craster's upbringing

Red herring or no, I'm curious where he got the idea (of sacrificing to WW) from. It seems unlikely that he just stumbled upon the idea, and it happened to work :P Although, in theory, he could just have gotten lucky - exposing the boys might have occurred to him naturally, and he happened to do it at the right time in the right place? Still, seems unlikely/unsatisfying, so I prefer to think there was some kind of a tradition he picked up.

His father was a crow, so it probably doesn't come from there ... so was it her mom? My memory is in shreds, but I think Ygritte? says his mom was from Whitetree. Which is seemingly (as far as we can tell without actually meeting the inhabitants) a normal wildling village, with an enormous heart tree (perhaps bigger than anywhere else? I think it had burned bones in its mouth?) Suggests the regular Old Gods worship, maybe particularly fervent if the size of the tree is any indication. Could there be a twist and did it involve sacrificing babies? Or her family privately practising it? In theory, but I don't think there are any hints pointing there, although I might just be forgetting/missing them.

I sense that the Others themselves taught Craster to give his sons to the woods. He had a son, and they came a-knockin'. The real question is who gave him the idea of the daughters/mothers/sister-wives? I don't think that giving children to the woods would be that unusual in the far north (although someone coming to get them would be very unusual). However, the daughters/mothers/sister-wives arrangement is taking things to a whole new level.

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