Canon sources

[LmL]

And of course, as has been said, the subject of what is canon has nothing to do with the conversation about the unreliable the narrator technique.

Two different subjects.

All books in ASOIAF use the unreliable narrator, and TWOIAF is supposed to be an in-world history book - it's not hard to figure out how we are supposed to view that. It's the same as if a maester in the story, let's just say Marwyn, gave a long speech to Sam about the history of the Great Empire of the Dawn or ancient Ghis or Sarnor or what-have-you. We'd intake that information the same as anything else a maester in the story says - as the point of view of the maesters.

This should all be crystal clear to everyone on the forums, as we have all read the books multiple times and are well familiar with the unreliable narrator technique. It's also exactly what Elio and George have said about the book, and what Yandel himself says in the introduction. It's the extent of the maesterly knowledge, which they admit is limited when discussing far off places and ancient history.

[LmL]

Deus ex postina

[Mithras]

I am quite confident that Sam will have a conversation with Yandel at Oldtown in TWoW.

[Dofs]

What was published on his website was an earlier version of the Westerlands chapter, as it was read at ConCarolinas last year. In between reading that chapter, and releasing the book, some stuff was changed (as it was incorrect), and some stuff was removed, leaving us with what we find in the book.

The fact that this chapter was released on his website, does not mean that the info in that chapter overrules the information in the printed book. The chapter seems to have been released as to share all that was left out of the book with the fans. Instead of rewriting the chapter once more, we simly got the earlier version. It has been suggested that this might happen with other chapters in the future as well.

That chapter certainly does not overrule the canon from the Worldbook, I'm perfectly aware of that. My point was that while what's written in the book is canon now, Martin might change some things written in it at some point later if he decides he needs to do it.

[CJ McLannister]

I am quite confident that Sam will have a conversation with Yandel at Oldtown in TWoW.

And Yandel will tell him that his book is canon.

[LmL]

^^^ at this point, I wouldn't be surprised to see an inside joke about it. Have some novice question Yandell and get sent to scrub latrines or something. Heh.

While we are on the topic of TWOIAF, I'd just like to say "thank you" Elio (Ran) and Linda, because people probably don't say it enough and the Internet is so ugly at times. Thanks, guys, because TWOIAF would not have happened if George had had to take the time to do all the hard work of compiling and organizing all the disparate wordlbuilding he's thrown out in the series. TWOIAF is a joy to read, the artwork is fabulous, and I love the style and presentation of it. I think the Yandel-writes-the-book idea was fantastic, and I think the idea of having to sort through the history and decide what may be slanted by the Citadel's view or current politics is really interesting.

TWOIAF is so far beyond anything like it that has come before, and really contributes to the series. Plus, George has clearly taken the time to hide many secret puzzles and metaphors in the book, which means anyone trying to solve the deeper mysteries of the series should be (and already is for the most part) pouring over every detail of that thing.

So thanks, for that and everything else, like this forum we all enjoy so much. *polite applause*

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

That chapter certainly does not overrule the canon from the Worldbook, I'm perfectly aware of that. My point was that while what's written in the book is canon now, Martin might change some things written in it at some point later if he decides he needs to do it.

In A Feast for Crows it was stated that Jon Connington was dead, in A Dance with Dragons, it was revealed he was not. If you mean something similar for The World of Ice and Fire (Yandel's account versus a character's own personal account), then I partially agree with you. It would simply mean that the events didn't truly happen as Yandel describes them, though it would still be canon that the people in Westeros believe them to have occured as described by Yandel.

Say for example that the books hadn't said a word about Jon Connington so far, and only TWOIAF mentioned his death, and it was TWOW that revealed he was still alive.. That means that Connington's death was no longer canon.. The fact that everyone believed he was dead, still remained such.

[The Dames do Moan]

And Yandel will tell him that his book is canon.

Ha, I'd love to see the non-canon arguments people make up after that.

"Well, we know that Maester Yandal is unreliable and GRRM threw in him saying it's canon as an obvious nod to readers that's it's not canon because they are intuitive enough to know he's unreliable."

[JonisHenryTudor]

Maybe this helps. Or maybe it does not....

I see this as sort of a history-esque thing.

1. You have historiography to provide a narrative on broad issues or more focused incidents (i.e English Civil War).

2. Primary sources (letters, etc).

3. early "history"

aSoIaF

1. Books 1-5 (equivalent to letters, etc, these are pov's after all.)

2. World Book - one individual living during the events of aSoIaF who has provided a history based on his learning and world view.

*The World book may disagree with POV characters, etc, and Martin may change things, but that does not mean that it is not canon. Just as Samuel Purchas' massive work on English travelers is not accurate, it is still apart of the English world and is therefore a source. Just like any historical manuscript, it must be read carefully and with other sources. So the WB may have some errors, but that does not mean it is not canon, it just means that is how the Citadel, primarily Yandel, perceives the history of Westeros. If anything, this discussion should send red flags buzzing, not over the WB, but over our perceptions of characters who have received very little attention in the series. (i.e. Others, CotF, etc).

If the WB is not canon, then neither is the main series since each pov is biased......so let's just burn the books since everyone is lying to us........ :bang:

[Dofs]

In A Feast for Crows it was stated that Jon Connington was dead, in A Dance with Dragons, it was revealed he was not. If you mean something similar for The World of Ice and Fire (Yandel's account versus a character's own personal account), then I partially agree with you. It would simply mean that the events didn't truly happen as Yandel describes them, though it would still be canon that the people in Westeros believe them to have occured as described by Yandel.

Say for example that the books hadn't said a word about Jon Connington so far, and only TWOIAF mentioned his death, and it was TWOW that revealed he was still alive.. That means that Connington's death was no longer canon.. The fact that everyone believed he was dead, still remained such.

Not really, as GRRM didn't change his mind about JonCon being dead after claiming that he was in aFfC. GRRM knew that he was alive when he was writing aFfC. I am claiming that GRRM may actually change his mind about something written in the Worldbook and change it for his novels.

The reason I mention the Westerlands chapter was, well, he posted it for the readers to see what did not fit in the book, but he didn't address the issue of contradictions between two versions. And I have a feeling that if we actually ask GRRM to point in his Westerlands chapter what was changed for the books and what was cut, George will have difficulties to do it. It just seems to me that GRRM wrote all that information for fun, because it was interesting for him, when he had more time available. He didn't spend a lot of time of thinking things through, writing and rewriting those chapters, editing them, so that they all fit with the novels, so that there would be no contradictions and mistakes. Elio and Linda were even probably the ones who edited and corrected those contradictions and mistakes for the Worldbook. Hence all this information is not completely fit in his mind and some things might be changed if George decides to do it.

But that doesn't mean that I'm saying that the books are not canon. They are. But George can still decide to change something from them, like he decided to change the origins of Lannisters.

[Jak Scaletongue]

It's CANON, with two Ns, not three. Three N "cannon" is a big gun.

Thank you! It's been driving me bonkers seeing so many people misspell "canon."

Spelling matters too, people! Regardless of what they're trying to tell kids these days...

[idio]

......so let's just burn the books since everyone is lying to us........ :bang:

Finally, someone talking some sense. Burn it... BURN IT ALL!!!! :devil:

[idio]

That chapter certainly does not overrule the canon from the Worldbook, I'm perfectly aware of that. My point was that while what's written in the book is canon now, Martin might change some things written in it at some point later if he decides he needs to do it.

Sure, just like GRRM could make Jon a Lannister in The Winds of Winter. He could change his mind. I'm sorry what is your point again?

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Saying it isn't fan fiction falls way short of saying it's canon! Sorry, I stand by my statement.

[Jak Scaletongue]

Saying it isn't fan fiction falls way short of saying it's canon! Sorry, I stand by my statement.

Canon is anything written by GRRM and published. Doesn't have to be only GRRM, but as long as he co-authored and/or edited it, it's canon! It doesn't have to be "correct" either in order to be canon.

This was a long argument in the HP-verse too - if the author writes it and approves it, it's canon. It may not be accurate information, but it's still canon information. For example; Joff, Tommen & Myrcella - it is canon that they are Robert's children (lots of people in-world believe this), it is ALSO canon that they are Cersei & Jaime's bastards (we are told this through character POV's, which correct *our* perception of their parentage, but that correction to our perception doesn't change the fact that it is still canon that they are Robert's children).

On a side note - The "Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them" movie will be canon, because JKR has written the screenplay. It's not being adapted by a third party, the movie will be as much canon to her universe as the 7 HP books were. Just like the "Quidditch through the Ages" and "Fantastic Beasts..." Comic Relief books were canon as well, for the same reason. JKR wrote them.

Basically - the information contained in D&E, TWOIAF, ASOIAF, LOIAF, and any others that may come out doesn't have to be accurate to be canon. "Canon" does not have anything to do with accuracy of information, it is simply a word we use in fandoms to differentiate the original authors own works for that universe compared to periphery works by others in the same universe that haven't been approved and vetted by the author (usually fanfiction, nowadays).

As another example, the Forbidden Realms series by RL Salvatore have periphery works by other authors that RLS has approved, vetted and claimed as canon (right? I haven't read them, but my husband has most of them on my bookshelf and RLS hasn't written all of them, but they've all got the "Forbidden Realms" banner across the top - mind you, as I write this, it occurs to me that maybe it was planned from the beginning to be multiple authors...)

Now, the TV show is neither fan fiction nor canon. It is an adaptation, even if George writes a script for it (just like the HP movies are not canon, even though JKR was a huge presence on set and in the adaptation process). Mostly because it was sold to a third party and both GRRM and JKR didn't/don't have the final say, the third party did/does.

ETA - rereading my post, I'm not completely sure why I quoted you before going on my rant...

[JonisHenryTudor]

Not that anyone needs it but:

"A list of books or other works that are generally accepted as the genuine work of a particular writer or as being important" ----OED

Take that as you will.

[Jak Scaletongue]

Not that anyone needs it but:

"A list of books or other works that are generally accepted as the genuine work of a particular writer or as being important" ----ODE

Take that as you will.

We probably needed it! Much thanks!

It's not the accuracy of information that determines canon - it's the author.

[Dofs]

Sure, just like GRRM could make Jon a Lannister in The Winds of Winter. He could change his mind. I'm sorry what is your point again?

My point is that he can't make Jon a Lannister in The Winds of Winters because he is not going to retcon the actual novels.

[Ran]

Very brief relevant remarks from the panel on the book Linda and I did at the con.

George introduced a new word into the discussion about this book right at the very outset in his opening remarks: Authoritative.

He said, specifically, that in the genesis of the project was the example of Robert Jordan's world book. And then he basically went on to say that Jordan's book was authoritative for his world, and that the WoIaF was authoritative for the setting of the novels.

This did not mean that everything in the book is absolutely true. People can read and understand that a master writing about his learning with certain biases and certain pressing concerns will produce a certain amount of unreliability.

But as far as it is possible for the book to be authoritative about things like well documented events and facts, it is authoritative and to have that authority it must obviously be canon.

The novels, being an ongoing project, are what George dubbed the supreme canon -- when, say, Tyrion figures out finding about dragons that contradicts the theories of someone like Septon Barth, well, there you go. The books will reveal things the maesters don't know or don't believe, just as the novels occasionally recall that something stated earlier is not correct.

Hopefully that will settle that.

[The Marquis de Leech]

A Game of Thrones = Canon.

A Clash of Kings = Canon.

A Storm of Swords = Canon.

A Feast for Crows = Canon.

A Dance with Dragons = Canon.

The Hedge Knight = Canon.

The Sworn Sword = Canon.

The Mystery Knight = Canon.

The Princess and the Queen = Canon.

The Rogue Prince = Canon.

The World of Ice and Fire = Canon.

Game of Thrones (TV) = Not Canon.

So Spake Martin = Not Canon.

Simple, really.