Rant and Rave: Dorne Postmortem (Book Spoilers )

[AlpenglowMemories]

Hallelujah! And because of a storm, I'm posting from a phone.

In the Emmy nom first round ballot for writing (self nominated, "for your consideration") D&D have offered up: "Mother's Mercy." And they'll probably get into the finals, since their ONLY writing nom last year was "The Children," and it made it into the finals. It is competing against Michael Hirst's finale for "Vikings," which was really well written, and more than that, made actual sense in terms of the plot.

:huh:

I have a hard time believing these scripts go through more than one or two drafts. The mere idea that they honestly walk away and start shooting thinking this is a high quality effort is preposterous to me. Granted, I don't think there's a single episode this season that I would really recommended as even being nomination worthy, let alone worth a win, but they always seem to end up getting listed. We really need more high-quality fantasy productions.

Dorne...I don't have anything to say on it, really. It's something where I feel I can only express myself by pointing at it and making strained sounds since I can't put into words how bad it really was. Are there even words to describe it? Where do you begin? The plot or the dialogue? Pushing Doran to the side and foregrounding Tyene? Actually bothering with that T-Swift flavoured Trystane/Myrcella romance? Jaime?

I can't decide if I'm :rolleyes: or :wacko: or :angry2: about this season.

[kissdbyfire]

How does it work? The Emmys, I mean. Is it writers vote for writing, actors vote for acting, and so on?

[TepidHands]

Yes writers in the academy vote for writers, directors for directors, and so on. Bests overall are open. This round winnows the field. "Homeland" has several episodes offered, as does "The Walking Dead." Ballot is available by googling. Or if you're a member.

Unless you're Tormund's, in which case you don't exist in TV land. Aargl.

[kissdbyfire]

Yes writers in the academy vote for writers, directors for directors, and so on. Bests overall are open. This round winnows the field. "Homeland" has several episodes offered, as does "The Walking Dead." Ballot is available by googling. Or if you're a member.

Unless you're Tormund's, in which case you don't exist in TV land. Aargl.

Thank you. I don't remember the writing for The Children... But why would a writer vote on Mother's Mercy as best script is beyond me. :dunno:

[Tagganaro]

:huh:

I have a hard time believing these scripts go through more than one or two drafts. The mere idea that they honestly walk away and start shooting thinking this is a high quality effort is preposterous to me. Granted, I don't think there's a single episode this season that I would really recommended as even being nomination worthy, let alone worth a win, but they always seem to end up getting listed. We really need more high-quality fantasy productions.

Dorne...I don't have anything to say on it, really. It's something where I feel I can only express myself by pointing at it and making strained sounds since I can't put into words how bad it really was. Are there even words to describe it? Where do you begin? The plot or the dialogue? Pushing Doran to the side and foregrounding Tyene? Actually bothering with that T-Swift flavoured Trystane/Myrcella romance? Jaime?

I can't decide if I'm :rolleyes: or :wacko: or :angry2: about this season.

What really kills me about Dorne is the stuff that was left out. I mostly hated Dorne (and the Sandsnakes in particular) in the books, but within Dorne there were 2 awesome things- The whole Queenmaker plot (and the conclusion to it with Areo/Oakheart and Dorkstar/Myrcella) and Doran's "Fire and Blood" speech. In particular, I'd think long-term Dorne's purpose in AFFC/ADWD is to put the Sandsnakes in the right places in King's Landing and establish them as threats and likewise to set up Arrianne/Quentyn and Dorne's play at the Throne.

For a show that claims it doesn't have enough time to put in a lot of good stuff, but goes to Dorne anyway...And doesn't do any of the above-mentioned set-up, it really boggles the mind.

When you factor in as well how it has completely short-changed Jaime's character development (one of the best parts of AFFC), I mean, there really aren't enough Rants and Raves to cover it all.

All of this is simply from an adaptation standpoint, which doesn't even begin to go into the actual execution of what we saw on our screens. I mean, I don't think there was one remotely redeeming scene or moment that was produced.

You could have cut every single Dorne scene out and had Myrcella be killed off-screen and you'd be in the EXACT same spot they are in to end this season. Besides for Bronn/Tyene, there was absolutely no development at all of any other plot that took place in Dorne in an entire season. It's remarkable really.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Yay, my thread got approved!

I think one of the many (many, many, many) problems of Dorne was that they made us root for the wrong Martell: Doran.

Like, we first see Doran filtered through Arianne's eyes, and the guy is basically depicted as a spineless, inattentive, misogynist bag of wind who's in the Lannisters' pocket. Hotah's and Arys' POVs lend credibility to the image of Doran as a uberpassive, ultralenient person. So all in all, he's hardly a character worth rooting for. So we root for Arianne. Not only is she the victim of injustice, but she's also being proactive, at least doing something unlike useless Doran.

It's only then that GRRM flips the scripts and we suddenly see Doran as a mastermind (well, I still think his plan sucks, but at least he's got a plan) and Arianne's plot as a shortsighted power play. Or well, that's how I see it, anyway.

In the show, however, Doran isn't presented as an antagonist, it's the other way around: it's Ellaria, in the Arianne role of rebelling against Doran, who's Doran's antagonist. And that changes the entire dynamic. Now we want Ellaria to fail, while we wanted Arianne to succeed.

In short, they should've given us a likeable, relatable character to be our eyes in Dorne, with Doran first seen as an antagonist to later surprise viewers with his plan...which they didn't even include, who the fuck knows why.

[Cas Stark]

I think all of that is too complicated for the show, it has too much going on to do those kinds of switch ups. Same reason they didn't do the Reek/Ramsay thing.

They just needed to spend more time on Doran, do a better introduction of him.

And their take on the sand snakes was really bad, and the intro was bad, dressing them alike also bad, Keisha Castle Hughes and that crazy look she gives trying to be a zen killer..no good.

They either needed to spend a LOT more time on an intro for them, where we see them interacting w/each other in a meaningful way to give some personality or introduce them separately and then bring them together with Doran.

Ellaria as a harpy, just stupid.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I think all of that is too complicated for the show, it has too much going on to do those kinds of switch ups. Same reason they didn't do the Reek/Ramsay thing.

They just needed to spend more time on Doran, do a better introduction of him.

And their take on the sand snakes was really bad, and the intro was bad, dressing them alike also bad, Keisha Castle Hughes and that crazy look she gives trying to be a zen killer..no good.

They either needed to spend a LOT more time on an intro for them, where we see them interacting w/each other in a meaningful way to give some personality or introduce them separately and then bring them together with Doran.

Ellaria as a harpy, just stupid.

That dynamic would've been easy to include, even without Arianne. Like:

Step 1) Make Ellaria less of a horribly evil and detestable character by making her want to crown Myrcella instead of cutting her to pieces. That way people might root for her plan to succeed and not the other way around.

Step 2) As soon as Ellaria leaves Doran (in their first scene in episode 2? 3? I don't remember, but whatever), have Doran order Hotah to watch her and the Sand Snakes closely and to arrest them if necessary, and keep the line about Tywin having a friend in King's Landing. That makes people root against Doran.

Step 3) Have Doran deliver his speech in episode 9 to Ellaria. Yay, now we're Team Doran!

Even within D&D's framework, they could've done this way better

[kissdbyfire]

Anyone see this?

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-season-6-spoilers-804187

LOL

[Cas Stark]

it was odd, no fire and blood speech.

who is he going to give it to now? unless somehow myrcella isn't dead?! if she is dead, then he needs to, um, send Hotah and his ax over to kill the Sand Snakes and Ellaria, since Myrcella's is DEAD. So, how can there be a coming together, yo, let's all get together on a revenge plan we can get behind....?

[Joe Pesci]

Anyone see this?

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-season-6-spoilers-804187

LOL

Jack Bender eerily resembles John Bender from the Breakfast Club...

But my biggest problem with Dorne was that while I can understand merging Ellaria and Arianne, why alter the plot so much? I think the whole Queenmaker scenario could've been done rather quickly and could've also swapped Arianne's lame ass posse (sans Darkstar) with the SS to give them some screentime that wasn't spent being the terrible Westeros version of Orange is the new Black.

[Gustavo Fringed Sleeves]

I'll celebrate my centenary of posts by toasting for many more General R&R threads to come. Till we get bored! :cheers:

[Good Guy Garlan]

it was odd, no fire and blood speech.

who is he going to give it to now? unless somehow myrcella isn't dead?! if she is dead, then he needs to, um, send Hotah and his ax over to kill the Sand Snakes and Ellaria, since Myrcella's is DEAD. So, how can there be a coming together, yo, let's all get together on a revenge plan we can get behind....?

I know it's probably not gonna happen, but it'd be hilarious if we never see Dorne or any of its characters again, and season 6 starts like:

Bronn: "Where's the little punching bag?"

Jaime: "Trystane? He jumped into the ocean out of grief for Myrcella's death. Let's never mention him or anyone from Dorne again. Deal?"

Bronn: "Deal"

Though I do have this feeling that Dorne will be important in the books, maybe as the setting of yet another failed Targ invasion, this time Dany's.

[Woofless]

Everything about it was B movie quality. If that. And there's a reason I'm not watching those.

It is easy to slam Porne -- even most ardent show fans thought it was bad -- but I think it is also indicative of the overall sinking quality of the show (can you imagine something like that in season 1?) and, of course, of the mindset of the showrunners with regard to plotting, characterization, clichés, boobs for the sake of boobs etc.

I think if Season 1 had been on a par with Season 5 GoT would've been cancelled at the end of the season.

[Le Cygne]

I still have seen very little, just a clip of the bad pussy moment and the handkerchief fail and Prom Barbie dying. I wonder, should I watch, just to mock the Sand Snakes?

[RGBeyondAsshai]

Yay my people! lol

Dorne. :bang: :ack:

All of it. Siddig is a great actor, but all he did was--REPEATEDLY-tell Ellaria that he gets that Oberyn loved her and she had kids, but cut it out. No Fire and Blood. No private intense conversation with Jaime or any Sandsnakes. Just sitting and watching Disney Myrcella walk through the very unimpressive garden with his son. Sitting in the perfect position to see the stupidest rescue/assassination blunder in the series. It was comically filmed, but probably not on purpose. The best part about Dorne, as I've said, was revisiting Bronn's lovely singing voice. Jaime was turned into an extra, the Sandsnakes played slapsies and there was no big reveal or mystery or anything worth adding a new section to the map.

Just talking about Dorne ticks me off so much that my husband, being observant and kind, is now playing one of Maester Aemon's clarifying speeches to calm me down. Love that old man. :)

[RGBeyondAsshai]

I still have seen very little, just a clip of the bad pussy moment and the handkerchief fail and Prom Barbie dying. I wonder, should I watch, just to mock the Sand Snakes?

You should. Join us in our pain...I mean amusement.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

I know it's probably not gonna happen, but it'd be hilarious if we never see Dorne or any of its characters again, and season 6 starts like:

Bronn: "Where's the little punching bag?"

Jaime: "Trystane? He jumped into the ocean out of grief for Myrcella's death. Let's never mention him or anyone from Dorne again. Deal?"

Bronn: "Deal"

Sounds like a good scene to me :)

[The Drunkard]

Ignoring the bad acting, bad fight scenes, bad pussy and complete derailment of Jaime, it felt like a ten episode introduction to characters that nobody enjoys. The 'climax' could've been done in the first episode (I think even Doran makes a comment about how simple it could have been). It makes it hard to take seriously any defense that supposes the show didn't have much to work with. ADWD and AFFC may be slow/meandering/unsatisfying, but the show dials that up even further.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

Ignoring the bad acting, bad fight scenes, bad pussy and complete derailment of Jaime, it felt like a ten episode introduction to characters that nobody enjoys. The 'climax' could've been done in the first episode (I think even Doran makes a comment about how simple it could have been). It makes it hard to take seriously any defense that supposes the show didn't have much to work with. ADWD and AFFC may be slow/meandering/unsatisfying, but the show dials that up even further.

:agree: