Why does Stannis never ......

[GOTFanatic]

Season 5 Spoilers - (EL Spoileria)

Try to seek aid from other lords / houses? Instead of a solo march on Winterfell, he could have seeked aide from the Northern lords who want to get revenge on the Boltons. If I was a Northern lord, I would be pretty damn grateful to the guy who just slaughtered the wilding army sparing the realm from invasion. Also since "the North remembers", you would expect them to lend troops to Stannis so he can overthrow and dispose of the house that betrayed and killed their former king, or at least let the guy rest his troops in my place. What was all that before about Davos saying he would win the support of the houses of Westeros for Stannis? Nothing ever came through, no plan or action for this was ever even put forth.The best these guys could come up with was buying some damn sellswords loyal only to gold, then march this army in the dead of a storm to a well defended castle? Am I missing something here? Perhaps from the books?

[jugdesh258]

He tries but it is all truncated in the show where Stannis reads the reply from Bear Islands 10 year old Lady Lord.

"Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is Stark."

We are supposed to presume he sent out letters to all the northern lords and this is the only responce. Producers also make Stannis foolishly march on winterfell episodes early against leal advice of Davos to set up sacrafice scene and Stannis doom

[Red Typer of Dorne]

It is mostly in the books.

Spoiler (don't know how to do the tag)

He writes to the Northern Lords but only Karstark offers aid, and that's a ploy of the Boltons. He also travels to see the Northern Clans, Flint, Locke and some others and they do join him. Davos also win the Manderleys in return for finding Rickon on Skagos, but it's unknown whether Stannis knows this.

[Primalsplit]

Lol this thread is pure gold. D&D fail.

[Chad Brick]

The books are very intricate with respect to all the scheming between various houses in the North. Basically, just about everyone hates the Boltons, but hates the idea of being on the losing side AGAINST the Boltons even more.

Yes, Stannis is scheming to flip people, yes he has flipped some people, and yes there will be double crossings in the end. Despite E10, it is actually hard to say what is going to happen. Stannis already has one victory in the books, driving the Ironborn out of Deepwood Motte, and appears to have a victory lined up against the first wave of Bolton forces (mostly Freys). At least on paper, it looks like Stannis is going to win some before he loses, whether that loss is to the Boltons at or before Winterfell, or potentially an attack by Littlefinger and the Vale's forces (or a zombie apocalypse) somewhat later.

The more interesting question to me is if Stannis himself will actually sacrifice Shireen. It's kind of hard to see how this will happen in the books, as he is in the wilderness somewhere near Winterfell, while Mel, Shireen, and Selyse are at the Wall, where Jon just got stabbed. Could Stannis lose, flee to the Wall, and then sacrifice her there? But why would he at that point? Does he win Winterfell, send for them, and then sacrifice her? But again, why? And would Mel even come post her revelations pertaining to Jon? And is it even possible for Stannis to sacrifice her before he attacks Winterfell? How would they even find him? And again, why would Mel leave and head to him? Its always seemed more logical to me that Mel sacrifice Shireen of her own accord to resurrect Jon. The show contradicts this, and if the producers made this change unilaterally, it is one of the biggest (and worst) changes they have ever made.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It is mostly in the books.

Spoiler (don't know how to do the tag)

use [spoiler ] text [/spoiler ] without the space.

Season 5 Spoilers - (EL Spoileria)

Try to seek aid from other lords / houses? Instead of a solo march on Winterfell, he could have seeked aide from the Northern lords who want to get revenge on the Boltons. If I was a Northern lord, I would be pretty damn grateful to the guy who just slaughtered the wilding army sparing the realm from invasion. Also since "the North remembers", you would expect them to lend troops to Stannis so he can overthrow and dispose of the house that betrayed and killed their former king, or at least let the guy rest his troops in my place. What was all that before about Davos saying he would win the support of the houses of Westeros for Stannis? Nothing ever came through, no plan or action for this was ever even put forth.The best these guys could come up with was buying some damn sellswords loyal only to gold, then march this army in the dead of a storm to a well defended castle? Am I missing something here? Perhaps from the books?

I think you should read the books to find a lot of answers to many of the holes the show has left. Despite many of the criticism Martin receives, the books are very realistic and detailed about military campaigns and politics.

The show has left out the Northern Lords and the aftermath of the Red Wedding in the North. They have also lost members of their families during Edmure's wedding and they had no other choice than submit to the Boltons, who have been named Wardens of the North, as some of them have also relatives being held prisoners by the Lannisters or the Freys. As book 5 advances, we find out they aren't as accepting as they claim to be, and many boarders here theorize there is a big conspiracy to get ride of both the Boltons and Stannis. What we do know is that Lord Manderly has

sent Davos to find Rickon Stark after his son is released and sent home by Jaime.

So, I suppose some Lords are very likely to support Stannis. Some of them do it because they are still loyal to Ned and his memory, and some others simply hate to have the Boltons in charge after they betrayed Robb and their own people.

[Stag_legion]

Because if stannis had northern allies on the show viewers would be rooting for him, D&D didn't want that, they wanted people to hate him for burning shireen and see him as a fanatic.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Because if stannis had northern allies on the show viewers would be rooting for him, D&D didn't want that, they wanted people to hate him for burning shireen and see him as a fanatic.

Huh, I think a successful

Karstark betrayal

would've actually made his situation look more desperate. Like, they could've easily burn shit in his camp and stuff, but D&D wanted Ramsay and his 20 Good Men to do it because reasons

[Winter's Cold]

The northerners view Stannis as a tool for getting rid of the boltons. Once that's done they'll go back to their castles and endure the rest of the winter.

Notice that most of the support Stannis gets truly doesn't care for him. Karstark plans to betray him. Manderly wants Rickon Stark who he calls his liege lord. This means that if Rickon Stark does not want Manderly to march south, then Manderly will obey. He also seems very willing to die getting revenge as does Lord Wull.

Ultimately Stannis is just some southern lord that lost the war, lost his castles and fled north to the night's watch. The northerners view him the same way he views them. A useful tool to achieve their purposes.

[thehandwipes]

Huh, I think a successful

Spoiler

Karstark betrayal

would've actually made his situation look more desperate. Like, they could've easily burn shit in his camp and stuff, but D&D wanted Ramsay and his 20 Good Men to do it because reasons

I think its really unfair to say D&D did it the way they did "because reasons." They have very serious time and budget constraints that sometimes hinder the plot and that's to be expected. Think of all the time and resources that went into constructing a plot around Tyene's bad pussy. Not to mention hiring little girls to beat. Have you ever hired a little girl to beat with a lash? They're not cheap!

[Stag_legion]

The northerners view Stannis as a tool for getting rid of the boltons. Once that's done they'll go back to their castles and endure the rest of the winter.

Notice that most of the support Stannis gets truly doesn't care for him. Karstark plans to betray him. Manderly wants Rickon Stark who he calls his liege lord. This means that if Rickon Stark does not want Manderly to march south, then Manderly will obey. He also seems very willing to die getting revenge as does Lord Wull.

Ultimately Stannis is just some southern lord that lost the war, lost his castles and fled north to the night's watch. The northerners view him the same way he views them. A useful tool to achieve their purposes.

Tell me then why did the north bow to Robert baratheon? Was he not yet another southern lord? Why didn't they just start chanting King in the north around Ned stark?

The north declared Robb king in a fit of emotion and they paid dearly for it. The north can no longer be separate from the rest of the kingdom, the idea of them being a part of the seven kingdoms is too well established. Anyone who prevails in the south will ultimately take the north as well. This is not the andal invasion, which was a migration of dis-unified people. Moat callin will not contain a southern would be king.

If the north betrays Stannis, they will bring about their own ruination. Few would ally with such a treacherous bunch, and they would have to face the wrath of a southern army (dany, aegon, euron) alone, not to mention stannis might be back with 20000 sellswords to settle scores later.

But if the north sticks with stannis, they will not only get much needed supplys for the winter via stannis' deal with the IB, but stannis would protect them militarily if he gets sellswords and gains allies from the riverlands, vale and beyond.

If I were a sensible northern lord, I would cautiously put my lot with stannis, instead of dreaming of ridiculous ways to fuck myself over, just cause "the north remembers", "king in the north" and so on.

I think the north will back stannis, though they will have reservations, and of course there will be arguments between stannis and the northern houses, and yes stannis might have to make concessions at various points, but the time for a king in the north is over now. The north can't survive on its own.

[marsyao]

Season 5 Spoilers - (EL Spoileria)

Try to seek aid from other lords / houses? Instead of a solo march on Winterfell, he could have seeked aide from the Northern lords who want to get revenge on the Boltons. If I was a Northern lord, I would be pretty damn grateful to the guy who just slaughtered the wilding army sparing the realm from invasion. Also since "the North remembers", you would expect them to lend troops to Stannis so he can overthrow and dispose of the house that betrayed and killed their former king, or at least let the guy rest his troops in my place. What was all that before about Davos saying he would win the support of the houses of Westeros for Stannis? Nothing ever came through, no plan or action for this was ever even put forth.The best these guys could come up with was buying some damn sellswords loyal only to gold, then march this army in the dead of a storm to a well defended castle? Am I missing something here? Perhaps from the books?

Because D&D forbid him to do so

[Stannis is the man....nis]

Answer because D&D didn't want Stannis to be a hero and having the North on his side after saving Snow and the "your my daughter" scene would of been impossible for him not to be liked

[Winter's Cold]

Tell me then why did the north bow to Robert baratheon? Was he not yet another southern lord? Why didn't they just start chanting King in the north around Ned stark?

The north declared Robb king in a fit of emotion and they paid dearly for it. The north can no longer be separate from the rest of the kingdom, the idea of them being a part of the seven kingdoms is too well established. Anyone who prevails in the south will ultimately take the north as well. This is not the andal invasion, which was a migration of dis-unified people. Moat callin will not contain a southern would be king.

If the north betrays Stannis, they will bring about their own ruination. Few would ally with such a treacherous bunch, and they would have to face the wrath of a southern army (dany, aegon, euron) alone, not to mention stannis might be back with 20000 sellswords to settle scores later.

But if the north sticks with stannis, they will not only get much needed supplys for the winter via stannis' deal with the IB, but stannis would protect them militarily if he gets sellswords and gains allies from the riverlands, vale and beyond.

If I were a sensible northern lord, I would cautiously put my lot with stannis, instead of dreaming of ridiculous ways to fuck myself over, just cause "the north remembers", "king in the north" and so on.

I think the north will back stannis, though they will have reservations, and of course there will be arguments between stannis and the northern houses, and yes stannis might have to make concessions at various points, but the time for a king in the north is over now. The north can't survive on its own.

They bowed to Ned Stark who bowed to Robert Baratheon. They don't care about southern kings. As long as Stannis remains useful to the north he will have support. If he tries to march south he will be abandoned. His army seems useless in winter anyway.

The north has faced and beaten back the "wrath" of the south many times. They only bowed to dragons. Stannis and his sellswords will just freeze to death just like they did in the show and are currently doing in the books.

Stannis is useful as a Bolton disposal tool. Once that's done the northern lords will be done with him.

[Stag_legion]

They bowed to Ned Stark who bowed to Robert Baratheon. They don't care about southern kings. As long as Stannis remains useful to the north he will have support. If he tries to march south he will be abandoned. His army seems useless in winter anyway.

The north has faced and beaten back the "wrath" of the south many times. They only bowed to dragons. Stannis and his sellswords will just freeze to death just like they did in the show and are currently doing in the books.

Stannis is useful as a Bolton disposal tool. Once that's done the northern lords will be done with him.

I considered replying to your points, but then I realized you are fixed in your fantasies about the north. Even the soundest of arguments won't convince you. I suppose you will be in for disappointment when TWOW is released.

[Winter's Cold]

My fantasies huh. Did Stannis not just get destroyed in the north in the tenth episode? I guess it must be disappointing to have supported a failure like Stannis for so long.

[Stag_legion]

My fantasies huh. Did Stannis not just get destroyed in the north in the tenth episode? I guess it must be disappointing to have supported a failure like Stannis for so long.

suffice to say, "we shall see, come next year this time we shall see" :cool4:

[Red Typer of Dorne]

use [spoiler ] text [/spoiler ] without the space.

I think you should read the books to find a lot of answers to many of the holes the show has left. Despite many of the criticism Martin receives, the books are very realistic and detailed about military campaigns and politics.

The show has left out the Northern Lords and the aftermath of the Red Wedding in the North. They have also lost members of their families during Edmure's wedding and they had no other choice than submit to the Boltons, who have been named Wardens of the North, as some of them have also relatives being held prisoners by the Lannisters or the Freys. As book 5 advances, we find out they aren't as accepting as they claim to be, and many boarders here theorize there is a big conspiracy to get ride of both the Boltons and Stannis. What we do know is that Lord Manderly has

sent Davos to find Rickon Stark after his son is released and sent home by Jaime.

So, I suppose some Lords are very likely to support Stannis. Some of them do it because they are still loyal to Ned and his memory, and some others simply hate to have the Boltons in charge after they betrayed Robb and their own people.

Thanks, been trying to work this out for age :cheers:

[Aemon's counsel]

Huh, I think a successful

Karstark betrayal

would've actually made his situation look more desperate. Like, they could've easily burn shit in his camp and stuff, but D&D wanted Ramsay and his 20 Good Men to do it because reasons

Why would you have a

Karstark betrayal

when you can have something involving Ramsey 'Terminator' Bolton instead? It doesn't make sense creatively, because you wouldn't want it to happen!

But seriously, leaving out the Northern Lords in S5 was a huge mistake. The scheming of the various northmen and the revelation of the continuing loyalty to House Stark in the North is one of the most enjoyable things in ADWD, and the show really needed some sort of hope to counteract all the nihilism. It really wouldn't have been difficult to at least have some hint of dissent or conspiracy (and no, that bloody washerwoman doesn't count), even if they weren't going to go the full Frey pie.

[Lord Lannister]

Because there wasn't enough screen time for anything interesting like that. We had important stuff like Dorne and the Grey Worm/Missandrei romance you know.